If only...

[kmac]

Shouldn't the artist know it's inevitable success/failure more than anyone else?

 

Of course, but only If the artist wants to be the only one to critique their own work. I critique my own photos all the time and I have a folder titled "Best Photos" for what I'm pleased with, the rest go in the trash bin unless I see any that can be improved by editing, then they go in a folder "Photos for editing". I haven't yet sought a critique on this new Photonet site, but I'm eyeing one for critique soon and I hope Sam will respond, I read his critiques of other members work religiously.

[samstevens]

I hope Sam will respond

I look forward to doing so!

[doug_johnson10]

Why is it a shame?

 

Why is there a call for others to share this view? To me, that says the perspective wants to be bolstered by outside support, and feels flimsy at best.

WHY IS IT A SHAME?

To look around this world, with all the shit we have been through in the last year, and see no perfection is just heartbreaking. My grandson is perfection, my wife is perfection, my daughter is perfection...to NOT see perfection is a very sad state!

I see it as more of a red herring than a classic standoff.

A red herring?...there can be no other way but yours...doubly sad.

Trusted mentors become trusted because they supply reasons with critique.

Give me a reason that you would suggest darkening/lightening something in a photo?

If the reasons are sound, they're sound.

Who decides whether the reasons are sound? Acceptance doesn't validate the reasoning.

The mentor getting a ticket may well affect whether that mentor "likes" a photo or not, one of the reasons "I like it" is often so unhelpful in a critique meant to be constructive.

Why is there a call for others to share this view? To me, that says the perspective wants to be bolstered by outside support, and feels flimsy at best.

So which is it Sam? Doesn't trusted mentor=outside support? If you want to be told how to get better, then "better" indicates a direction away from where you are going on your own...hence a "better" way. Once you go down that road, away from your own instincts, you are lost. Your critiques will help KMAC see more like you, but they won't help KMAC see more like her/himself.

[samstevens]

As I said, my critiques are less a matter of suggesting what I would do and more a matter of describing in visual and emotional terms what I see. That’s the way I’ve been mentored, so I’ve been influenced not to make photos like others but to look carefully at my own and develop a coherent voice of my own.

 

I imagine a lot of people do think of critique as tailoring others’ photos to what they would do. But I don’t. I prefer a more nuanced and somewhat time consuming approach, letting a photographer know just what I’m seeing and, if they intended something else or missed an aspect of their own photo, that may inspire them to consider if there’s something they want to do about it ... or not, of course. My idea of critique is not to be a suggestion box, but rather a sounding board. The best critiques are a dialogue, not a string of one-way suggestions.

 

Simple example. Me: I see sadness in this photo. Photographer: I meant to show seriousness, not sadness. Me: What’s the difference between them and what clues in your photo are showing seriousness and do you think anything is telegraphing sadness?

 

Simple example number two: Your photo feels cluttered (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not). Photographer Number One: That’s what I wanted. Me: Great, then you’ve achieved it. Photographer Number Two: I hadn’t thought of that, but now that you mention it, I wish it didn’t. Me: What would have made it feel less cluttered, if that’s what you would have preferred?

 

The idea (and the luck I’ve had with mentors myself) is to get the photographer thinking about and seeing various options that may not have been apparent, not by giving out the specific options but by opening up the dialogue. It’s helping someone to think and see for themselves, not telling them what to think and see.

[JDMvW]

something reminds me of

[doug_johnson10]

Good luck with that...but tread carefully Sam When you take on the mantle of "mentor", you embark on a very slippery slope of unintentional misdirection. Don't let your ego get the best of you.

[inoneeye]

.it's easy enough to weed out ego driven critiques... to know a critique that is taking into account your vision as photographer vs the critique that is more aligned with their work or ego.

A good critique or mentoring outcome is only successful when it is received by a good listener.

[samstevens]

tread carefully Sam When you take on the mantle of "mentor", you embark on a very slippery slope of unintentional misdirection. Don't let your ego get the best of you.

An appropriate finish, :)perfectly:) exemplifying the "suggestion box" school of discourse.

Edited May 4, 2021 by samstevens

[doug_johnson10]

A good critique or mentoring outcome is only successful when it is received by a good listener.

Unless you are willing to do background checks on anyone that critiques your work, you will never know how valid it is...how much is about your work, and how much is about them.

[samstevens]

Unless you are willing to do background checks on anyone that critiques your work, you will never know how valid it is...how much is about your work, and how much is about them.

I give inoneeye credit for being more perceptive than that and not needing a background check. When I read through the critiques here, it's pretty easy to tell how much is about the photographer's work and how much is about the critic. It just takes ... well ... reading and paying attention, not really any special skills. However, if I want to be perfectly skeptical of all critiques, I'm sure I can find ways to sabotage the efficacy of all of them by endless doubting and imaginative hypotheticals.

[inoneeye]

"Unless you are willing to do background checks on anyone that critiques your work, you will never know how valid it is..."

background checks? I know how valid it is. If I ask for a critique and that is what I respectfully get then it is valid... if it has an impact on my work or value to my vision is up to me. no matter the source.

[doug_johnson10]

However, if I want to be perfectly skeptical of all critiques, I'm sure I can find ways to sabotage the efficacy of all of them by endless doubting and imaginative hypotheticals.

OR, you can pander in whimsical imaginings, based on make-believe credentials, and pump up your ego by either taking or giving meaningless platitudes to make you feel better/worse about your own work, or theirs.

Why is there a call for others to share this view? To me, that says the perspective wants to be bolstered by outside support, and feels flimsy at best.

You wrote that...now you should read it.

[inoneeye]

I wanted to avoid responding to a non photography related post you made re; perfection in a reply to me. While perfection is an often pondered question in philosophy I chose not to pursue the construct of 'perfection' after seeing your non photo related replies...

But you keep throwing back - out of context twice - sam's response to that 'what a shame' post you directed at me...

 

so to put it in context;

Me "No I do not believe in a perfect photo... or perfection. I just don't think like that...

if perfection were to exist it would bore me to pursue it."

 

Doug "It's all around you...what a shame you can't/won't see it."

 

Sam "Why is it a shame? Why is there a call for others to share this view?

To me, that says the perspective wants to be bolstered by outside support, and feels flimsy at best."

 

Doug "WHY IS IT A SHAME?

To look around this world, with all the *X&$#**X&$#**X&$#**X&$#* we have been through in the last year,

and see no perfection is just heartbreaking.

My grandson is perfection, my wife is perfection, my daughter is perfection...

to NOT see perfection is a very sad state!"

Sad, heartbreaking for your experience and mindset. not so for me. I don't think like that. I am not missing out on the imperfect joys I encounter.

Edited May 5, 2021 by inoneeye

[doug_johnson10]

I posted my question in the "Philosophy" section...we are discussing the philosophy of critique.

Sad, heartbreaking for your experience and mindset. not so for me. I don't think like that. I am not missing out on the imperfect joys I encounter.

Sad and heartbreaking indeed....it must have been near fatal for you to switch from film to digital. The world is full of photographers who actually do photography...who take photos every day, and don't need the pat on the head, and the "attaboy" from the adoring spectators.

[inoneeye]

If only...

[samstevens]

[inoneeye]

:)

[Ricochetrider]

Hmmmm. I have more than a few photos I take that I like. Just because I like them, doesn't mean I think they're perfect- only that they fit what I think I either was seeing, or just what I like in a shot.

 

More than a couple times, just to see what others have to say about my photo that I like, I'll ask for critique. I always enjoy reading what others say. Always. It doesn't matter what they say, I just appreciate others' opinions on stuff. I fold it all into my brain as one might fold an egg into a cake batter.

In the end, I usually feel like I'm better off for it. It's an exercise in learning. Maybe I can't even put into words what it is I've learned but I feel like having others weigh in on my photos helps me grow as a photographer. Maybe grow as a person, too? AND the entire exercise, by my way of thinking, deepens my connection to this community.

 

So I get way more from a critique than just the opinions, advice, and views of others.

 

I did just have one final thought tho: if a photo is "perfect" to you, why would you even ask anyone else's opinion on it?

[doug_johnson10]

if a photo is "perfect" to you, why would you even ask anyone else's opinion on it?

I wouldn't. If you go back to my first post, I was posing a hypothetical. Some people can't help themselves, and feel the need to critique when none is asked for. I made my living as an advertising photographer...every shot had the art directors instant critique. Art directors have their vision of what the shot should look like, photographers have theirs, and the clients have theirs...who is right? (Trick question...the correct answer is the guy paying for it!) In the end, all are right, and all are wrong, and none of it really matters. When it comes down to it, if a photographer goes to the trouble of selecting an image that they have taken, that makes the image perfect...wonky horizon, blown out highlights, no detail in the shadows...just the fact that THAT image was chosen make it temporarily perfect. Tomorrow is another day, and it may not be perfect tomorrow...only the photographer that took it could say. I realize that this is an unpopular opinion on this forum, but occasionally, the emperor has no clothes. I'm glad you think all critique is good, all is worth indulging, and all of it makes you feel better about you and your work. In my 50 year career as a photographer, no critique has ever changed anything for determined photographers. The fact that others don't see it your way is just the way it is...that is life!

[samstevens]

if a photographer goes to the trouble of selecting an image that they have taken, that makes the image perfect...

Only if one conflates select and perfect, two distinctly different words.

I realize that this is an unpopular opinion on this forum

I wouldn’t call it unpopular. I’d call it incoherent, a misuse of the word perfect. Perfect is, by definition, an absolute. It doesn’t change day after day. If it was perfect yesterday, it better be perfect tomorrow or it was never perfect at all. It was simply mislabeled.

Some people can't help themselves, and feel the need to critique when none is asked for.

In general, I don’t see unsolicited critique, which you provided me in the Richard thread by the way, as critics not being able to help themselves. Maybe that was the case for you, I don’t know. I see it as a great way to engage with photographer and photograph. I love hearing unsolicited opinions about my work. I create photos to express myself and like to share the photos with folks. I like when they share their reactions with me. It’s easy to tell when a critique feels forced or disingenuous. Most, if not all, critiques say as much about the critic as the photo, so it’s an opportunity for sharing in both directions.

[doug_johnson10]

Good for you Sam...ignorance is bliss...enjoy your bliss!

[Ricochetrider]

I'm glad... ..... all of it makes you feel better about you...

 

Thanks for being glad about me feeling good. :rolleyes:

 

my 50 year career as a photographer...

just the way it is...that is life!

 

What's your wife's opinion on it all tho? ;)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ricochetrider

[Ricochetrider]

If you go back to my first post,

 

how can I be wrong?

 

Apparently, you can't be. It doesn't appear to be possible for you.

But maybe you better check in with your wife, just to be 100% sure. :D

[inoneeye]

Personally, all I need from an observer is "I like it!"..

You are in the right place for that Doug. There is a like button and no thumbs down button. But if you post in the critique forum, as you found out you are opening the door to varied evaluations. Some post to hear something more than alignment with our own assessment. And those opinions are valid unless they are disrespectful. And maybe some dissenting opinions to perceived perfection are not what you want to encounter and so there is no benefit for you to ask for a generalized critique.

Others do benefit and even enjoy and respect the experience.

Respect and attitude are choices we make.

“I fold it all into my brain as one might fold an egg into a cake batter.” A nice visual analogy R.

Edited May 9, 2021 by inoneeye

[Ricochetrider]

One additional thought I had on this conversation and on critique-

 

Philosophy isn't cut & dried nor is it black & white. Therefore I don't see any "right or wrong" in philosophy.

 

Critique, viewed as opinion, is much the same. Who's to say someone's opinion is right? or wrong? Opinions can be ill informed, misguided and so forth. Not necessarily right or wrong however.

 

That said, there are people in the world who are imminently qualified to issue critiques on photography and other things as well. In the case of such a person with a list of qualifications as long as your arm writing a critique on something in the realm of their expertise, I'd be inclined to say that their critique/opinion, is a heck of a lot more "right" than that of the average person critiquing anything.