SWC 903 6x6 and biogon alternative

[jo_dad]

Hey all,

thinking about the Hassy SWC. In fact, I've been thinking about it for years but never had the chance to try it. I have had a play around with one that belonged to someone trying to sell but he couldn't be convinced to let me use it for a test roll - fair enough.

 

What i wanted to know is if there is a cheap alternative to it that i can buy that would give me a flavor of 6x6 with such a wide angle, just so i can see what it would be like to shoot photos like that and if i could actually get my eye in to find good pictures in square and super wide like that. I'm thinking better try out something similar that's cheap and see if you like the setup first before rearranging finances and selling some stuff so that i can afford it.

 

So my question is this:

Is there a cheap 6x6 camera that i can get a cheapish lens for (that will be as close as possible to the wideness of the biogon)?

I don't care about how small it is or any other such details. I just want to see if i can get along with the superwide 6x6 format and don't mind lugging something big around for a few months to decide.

[orsetto]

Any cheap equivalent of the SWC is going to be much more convenient to compose with (because SLR viewfinder vs dinky optical peephole), while the lens will have more distortion and be less sharp in the corners than the Biogon (again because SLR vs non-SLR body). With those points in mind:

 

The closest you can get on the cheap would be one of the Ukrainian focal plane shutter Hasselblad knockoffs like Kiev 88, plus the MIR 45mm lens. With patience, you might be able to find this setup for under $350. The lens is also available in Pentacon 6 mount to work on those cameras, which are also cheap. Drawbacks are the lens isn't quite as wide as the Biogon and the cameras are junk that tends to break down six times during one roll of film.

 

Much more reliable but double the cost would be a Bronica SQ with Bronica Zenzanon 40mm lens. The SQ is a Japanese knockoff of the Hasselblad 500cm, very similar aside from lens leaf shutters being electronic. This setup will run perhaps $600 if you snag a bargain. The lens is close enough in FOV to the Biogon to give the same feeling, the body and lens have the usual Japanese reliability, just be careful with the film magazine as they tend to be fragile and replacing the light seals is a big pain.

 

Note a cheap 6x6 system is guaranteed to lose money on resale, esp on eBay. If there's any possibility you could extend yourself to buy the SWC, you're better off just getting "the real thing" in the first place and evaluate it for a couple months. Given its in such high demand, its hard to lose money on one: the most you could lose after buying an SWC and reselling it a couple months later would be about what you'd lose selling one of the cheap outfits above. You can save a substantial sum by opting for the older SWC/M instead of the 903: unlike Hasselblads with interchangeable lenses, there's no particular advantage to the newer "CF" ergonomics in the fixed lens of the 903 or 905 over the SWC/M.

 

All the SWC variations are scale focus aka guess focus, so the nicer focus ring feel of the 903/905 isn't nearly as important (you aren't going to be holding the camera up to your eye and fiddling with focus constantly). When mounted on a tripod with the optional ground glass viewing accessory, again you'll never be fiddling with focus so often that paying hundred$ more for the 903/905 would be worth it. The older Compur lens shutter in the SWC/M is still repairable if necessary: the Prontor in the 903/905 is slightly more reliable but could fail as easily as the older Compur.

 

If you already own a digital full frame (FX) camera, the cheapest way to see how you'd get on with the 38mm Biogon FOV would be to mount a 20 or 24mm lens, activate live view, and use black tape to crop around the center square viewing area of the rear LCD.

Edited April 8, 2019 by orsetto

[John Crowe]

I had considered an SWC for many years and could never justify it. I had not even thought of the viewfinder/rear glass viewing/focusing issues! I always considered a 500CM with 40/4 to be more practical and with the added ability to use many different focal length lenses. I ended up with a Mamiya TLR and 55mm lens, and a 4x5 with 65mm lens instead. The Bronica seems like a very good idea.

[andyfalsetta]

If you try the Bronica Orsetto suggested you just might forget about the SWC. The only additional suggestion would be to go for the SQA or the SQAI

[orsetto]

The challenge with Hasselblad is all their own alternatives to the SWC are huge, heavy and nearly as expensive (depending whether you already own a Hasselblad camera and are just adding the lens, or need the entire kit). The 40mm CF-FLE and CF-FLE-IF lenses cost $1500 to $2800 second hand, just for the glass. They're big, heavy and clumsy. Much more affordable, but again HUGE and heavy, is the old original 40mm C lens with flared conical barrel. I had one of these for for a year but almost never used it: for my purposes, 40mm (or the SWC) is just too wide for the 6x6 format, I couldn't make it work for me. Also, the 40mm lenses are very difficult to focus on both regular groundglass and Acute Matte screens: I found the whole setup impossible and unpleasant. Many here swear by the 40mm (and SWC), but I think you really need to be born with a knack for exploiting it (or some specific shooting requirement like architectural interiors).

 

So if you already own a Hasselblad like 500cm, and are considering the SWC, picking up an old 40mm C lens as a test run can be helpful: with patience they can be found for $500-$600. OTOH, the old 40mm has terrible ergonomics, the combo is twice as large/heavy as the SWC, and reflex viewing does not directly compare to the crude optical finder of the SWC. For better and worse, the SWC is one of a kind: the only way to really know if you'll bond with it is to buy one or rent one. Substitutes can give you a feel for the lens coverage, but not the handling or specific advantages of the non-retrofocus Biogon lens.

 

The Bronica SQ 40mm lens is notably smaller than any Hasselblad 40mm: an SQ + 40mm Zenzanon isn't much larger than the SWC, so handling would be more similar. I have a Mamiya TLR system, and the tiny 55mm lens for it (that John Crowe mentions above). This is a much more compact combo, since the 55mm lens set is no larger or heavier than the standard Mamiya 80mm. Here again, 55mm isn't nearly as wide as 40mm/38mm, and TLR is a different shooting experience (the Mamiya bellows allows the 55mm to focus down to nearly 1:1 macro, but with severe viewfinder parallax error unless you use a tripod and paramender device). Vagaries of the used camera market, and the higher collectibility of mechanical gear over electronic, means the Mamiya 55mm TLR combo costs about the same as the Bronica SQ 40mm kit.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by orsetto

[mag_miksch]

use a tripod and paramender

helps a lot to avoid pics of car roofs^^

[mag_miksch]

I didnt like this 55, it rendered somewhat harsh, I loved the 65,

IMO the 50 on the RB may be similar to a 40 or 38 on 6X6

[jo_dad]

Thanks so much for the suggestions guys. Super helpful.

Looking for an SQ (i dont know much at all about the Bronicas) i came across the Bronica ETR C. Found a few with 40mm F4 lenses and they are a fair bit cheaper than the SQ. What do we think of these cameras relative to the SQ to SQ ai range?

[rodeo_joe1]

If you're not wedded to a square format (very awkward to compose into IMO) then a Mamiya 645 and 35mm f/3.5 Mamiya Sekor gets you a little bit wider.

 

The 38mm Biogon is only the equivalent of a 24mm on the 135 format, so it's not stunningly wide by modern standards. A 75mm Super-Angulon on a 5x4 camera actually takes you wider, and definitely gets you better IQ.

[orsetto]

You seemed to be specifically interested in the SWC 6x6 format, which is why everyone so far has recommended 6x6 alternatives. Going to a rectangular format switches things up considerably: the SWC is a cult item beloved for its distinctive distortionless super-wide-square format (of course some have used a 645 film or digital back on it, but this isn't common). Wide angle 40mm lenses in 645 format give a traditional result akin to 24mm lens on 35mm film. The square 6x6 format blows wide angle visual conventions all to hell: you wouldn't think it makes such a big difference, but it does. Anyone can shoot a 40mm on 645 or 50mm on 6x7: 40mm or 38mm on 6x6 is a whole other deal.

 

Anyway: the Bronica ETR system is quite nice. It was key to Bronica's re-launch after their innovative but obsolete focal-plane 6x6 system suffered declining sales in the mid-70s. Due to the really well-integrated side grip and AE prism, its one of the more hand-holdable MF cameras (the Pentax and Mamiya followups were similar, but heavier and noisier with their always-active motor drives). Of the second-hand 645 systems to choose from today, ETR has the best price>features bargain if you intend to solely shoot film. If you think you might someday want to use MF digital, none of the Bronica bodies or lenses can make the transition so you'd have to start all over with a new system. The Mamiya and Pentax 645 systems did make the transition to digital, so most of their lenses can be migrated over (or adapted to mirrorless MF like Fuji GX).

 

On the heels of ETR success, Bronica decided to encroach on Hasselblad's 6x6 turf with the larger SQ, which was a hit with studio pros and others who preferred the square to 645. The SQ offered all the advantages of Hasselblad, plus consistent electronic shutter speeds, at much lower cost to the working pros who didn't care about Zeiss branding on their lenses. SQ is the best deal going today in used 6x6 SLR, but just like Hasselblad the film backs can be an Achilles Heel. Both the ETR and SQ line went thru several iterations: some Bronica enthusiasts feel the final models like SQ-AI and ETR-SI are a tad less reliable than earlier versions.

 

The lenses for both systems went thru a couple of mechanical and optical upgrade cycles: the most desirable are the final PS series for SQ and PE for ETR. These have slightly better coatings and upgraded shutter cocking mechanism. There is nothing "wrong" with the older S or MC lenses aside from older possibly meaning more used up. The better coatings do help with flare in the wide angles, but this is offset by much larger filter sizes required in the later versions: which to choose depends how much you rely on filters. The 40mm or 35mm ETR lenses in 645 format will be somewhat more intuitive to shoot with, the 40mm SQ lens in square format will be as challenging as the Hasselblad SWC. If you can master the super wide square, the novelty can be rewarding. If your goal was more to use a film format larger than 35mm SLR with familiar framing conventions, 645 would be better.

Edited April 9, 2019 by orsetto

[orsetto]

Re ETR C: these don't have an interchangeable back, which should eliminate most of the problems that arise with backs (dark slide seals, mount issues). In the old days, interchangeable backs on a leaf shutter MF camera were essential for efficient studio work with models, but not so important unless you tend to burn thru frames quickly or think you'd like to constantly switch between BW and color films mid-roll.

 

There were two versions of "backless" ETR, using almost the same name. The first ETRC is from the mid-70s and is the same as the original ETR minus the removable back. The ETR-C is from the '80s and is the backless version of the ETR-S. The only meaningful difference today is the electronic interface for the AE prism: Bronica altered this for all their second-generation cameras (ETRS, SQA, GS) to the extent they all require newer Version II AE prisms (and are incompatible with the old prisms).

[orsetto]

I didnt like this 55, it rendered somewhat harsh, I loved the 65,

 

The 55mm was Mamiya's most complex and modern TLR optical design. It didn't lend itself well to the pentagonal aperture and "relaxed" assembly the other C lenses usually got away with. Serial numbers in the low five digits (below 7xxxx) are the most variable, 55mms with six-digit serial # in the 10xxxx range seem to be the best production run. All of the wides are susceptible to the dreaded "Mamiya TLR haze" on internal elements: left treated, performance takes a hit.

 

If Mamiya was consistent in anything, it was the infuriating inconsistency of their pre-1982 lenses (across all formats from TLR thru RB67 thru Press 6x9). As a general rule, the newer the better applies with all their glass, but there can be exceptions where pretty much every damn lens is a diceroll. This was especially true with the TLR 55mm and 65mm lenses: Mamiya seemed to outsource production of these to a drunken sailor. There is no rhyme or reason to which samples will be excellent or disappointing: some old ones are great, some terrible, ditto the new. This why you see such widely conflicting reports from users: even lenses from the same serial number bloc can behave differently.

Edited April 9, 2019 by orsetto

[jo_dad]

Guys, you really have surprised me. I honestly didn’t think I’d get this much feedback and so detailed too!

 

I’ve found a Bronica SQAI. It comes with a 40, 80 and a 150 (I think it was a 150, didn’t it too much attention to that one). Just left the guys house. Everything looks clean but couldn’t test the cam with film. He wants USD 600 for the lot with I don’t know 4rolls of portra 800 and 4velvia from 2018.

 

Apparently it’s his uncles camera. He was a wedding photog... this worries me. I always read that buying cameras from pro photos who made money shooting was a bad idea because everything was probably HEAVILY used.

 

The guy was a nice enough family man. I met him at his house. He said he hadn’t used it for a year but only ever shot 1 roll through it. He said if anything didn’t work I could come back to him for a refund. I have no reason from Him to mistrust what he is saying but I am just a natural sceptic.

 

What do you guys think? A decent deal? Is there a lot that can go wrong with this model? Anything I could look for/test over a QUICK exchange next time I meet him if I’m going to buy it?

Edited April 9, 2019 by jo_dad

[orsetto]

Thats a pretty good deal if everything works properly. If you check eBay completed sales, the 40mm lens alone typically goes for around $300 and SQ body with back and WLF about the same. So its like getting the 80mm and 150mm as a free bonus. If this package included extras like a spare film back, grip or prism finder, I'd say you did very well.

 

Buying "ex-pro" gear can go either way. Conventional wisdom says it will be more heavily used, and thats usually true. OTOH, pros can't risk lemon lenses or unreliable cameras, so they tend to make sure their most-needed lens is an excellent copy, and keep their bodies and backs maintained with regular servicing. There's no way to know for sure unless you're personally acquainted with the pro in question, but reasonable care of once-pricey medium format systems is safer to assume than with 35mm SLR systems (which many pros would simply run into the ground and then replace). Medium format cameras and lenses with leaf shutters benefit more from use than sitting on the shelf, so "ex-pro" at least means the stuff didn't rot in some dentist's display cabinet after shooting just four rolls of vacation pics.

 

The Bronica SQ was solid. As long as the lens shutters seem to be running at correct speeds, and film advance/spacing is normal, you should be good. Film backs can be a problem, because the Bronicas apparently have more complicated seals and interlocks than similar Hasselblad or Mamiya backs. If test roll seems OK, all should be well, but its probably worth handing the camera and most important lens to a repair service for an overhaul.

[jo_dad]

Thanks very much for that info Orsetto, really appreciate the insight. I’ll take a test roll in the next few days and report back. Quite excited and hopeful actually

[peter_fowler]

^ If you are even half as lucky as I've been over the years with Bronica equipment ( mostly Etr(s)(i) ) models, you'll

be a happy camper ! Peter

ps: Completely agree with "orsetto" , but I still like my Pentacon 6 TL :)

[andyfalsetta]

I bought an SQAi two years ago for $300 including a metered prism finder, three backs (one was a polaroid) a lens hood, and the 80mm. The only problem with it was the plastic lever for the mirror up had a crack in it that caused it to slip on its shaft. Noticed another person on this forum had the same problem so as the plastic ages, more of this type of problem will occur. I epoxied mine and its been fine ever since. I thought I did well, but your deal is smokin good if the equipment works. Make sure there are fresh batteries in the body before you test it. They really only last 6-8 months so who knows what is in there. Make sure the aperture ring on the lens moves smoothly and the detents are crisp. Otherwise, these are pretty solid cameras so good luck.Also, if its an Ai, the film speed control/dial should be on the rear of the film back not on the top of it. I've seen some older version backs (top mounted dial) being passed off on SQAis.

[rodeo_joe1]

I wouldn't worry about the usage. Wedding shooters in the days of film didn't tend to machine gun their cameras, and generally took care of their gear. Besides, how many weddings can one person cover? It's generally Saturday only work and quite seasonal too.

[arthur_gottschalk]

SWC is the best film camera ever made. Can't go wrong and worth every cent. But if you must go elsewhere, try the Lomo LC-A 120 camera from Lomography. This 6x6 camera has a 38mm lens like the SWC, with F4.5. Not cheap at $429.00 but an interesting alternative.