Third Party Tele- Zoom

dominic_t._lupico · December 19, 2016

I'd like to find a lens similar to Tamron 200-400 or Sigma 170-500mm as a gift for a friend. I have seen many on Ebay that were affordable, but would not autofocus with his D40X or D5200. Exactly what lens mount designation would be full feature for those models? Thanks.

Dieter Schaefer · December 19, 2016

It's not the lens mount (for Nikon there's only one, and that's the F-mount), it's that those cameras require lenses with a build-in motor for AF. With Nikon, the designation of such lenses is AF-S (some older ones show AF-I), with Sigma it's HSM, and with Tamron there might be a BIM, USD, or PZD indicator or the mentioning of a stepping motor in the specs.

DavidTriplett · December 19, 2016

+1 to Dieter's information. I own and use the Tamron 150-600mm/5-6.3 VR USD on my D5100 and D7100. This is not the sharpest lens in its category, but is probably the best value given competitor costs. In a Tamron lens, look for the "USD" (Ultrasonic Silent Drive) designation for those that can autofocus on the D40 and D5200.

Andrew Garrard · December 19, 2016

If you possibly can, Dominic, I'd see whether you can find one of the latest generation of 150-600mm lenses from Tamron or Sigma (ironically the latest 200-500mm Nikon won't work on the D40x - or at least, it won't set the aperture, as an "E" lens). The latest generation are all optically much better than the previous ones. I was very frustrated with the performance of my 150-500mm Sigma OS (at least at the long end), and would probably have done as well with a decent 70-300mm. I now have the Nikkor, which is much better, but the Tamron and both Sigma current equivalents are competitive. On the other hand, it's better to have a lens than not, so if these are affordable to you only because others have upgraded to the new versions, so be it! Good luck.

JDMvW · December 19, 2016

It's too bad that people still claim that there is only one (1, count it) Nikon F lens mount.

As you can tell if you parse the information given, not all so-called "F-mount" lenses will mount properly and actually function on any and all "Nikon-F" cameras.

Obi-Wan: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

</blockquote>

Before buying confirm whether your Nikon mount is one of the motor-in-lens mount forms required.

dominic_t._lupico · December 19, 2016

Thank you all for the information and suggestions. As a Canon shooter, these differences are all new to me. I appreciate the advice, and now I know the problem has been lack of focusing motors, not the mount per se.

Dieter Schaefer · December 19, 2016

It's too bad that people still claim that there is only one (1, count it) Nikon F lens mount.

</blockquote>

Well JDM, I could call the "screw-driver AF modification" of the F-mount the "D-mount", and lens modification of removing the aperture ring to result in the "G-mount", and the introduction of the electronic aperture control the "E-mount", but that would (a) not clear up things as it is not the official nomenclature and (b) incorrect anyway since the physical dimensions of the F-mount haven't changed; just the functionality of the lenses and cameras that use it. So in much the same way as users of Leica-R mount cameras and lenses had to be aware of certain incompatibilities, users of Nikon F-mount lenses need to be aware of a whole slew of them if one considers the entire line from pre-Ai, Ai, Ai-S, Ai-P, AF, AF-D, AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P, non-G, G, and E-lenses. They all have one thing in common though, they still mount mechanically to the same bayonet now as they did back then. Unlike Canon's change from FD to EF mount, which makes lenses for either mutually incompatible.

So, for the OP the important take-home message is that only lenses with a build-in motor will AF on the cameras mentioned (and they should not be lenses with an electronic diaphragm (designated E by Nikon) if they are to function fully on the D40X). But the advice to look for different versions of the Nikon lens mount won't get anyone anywhere at all.

JDMvW · December 19, 2016

I refer again to Obi-wan's comment.

I also note that any EOS (EF) Canon lens available in 1987 still works today on all EOS cameras. How many 1987 Nikon AF lenses will actually work on the latest "Nikon F" cameras? Is this meaningful 'same mount'?

The other Canon changes (=EF-S) are the special lenses which are made to take advantage of the APS-C shorter mirror

But the advice to look for different versions of the Nikon lens mount won't get anyone anywhere at all.

</blockquote>

That's why the historical claim about the "same mount since 1965" is so misleading for anyone buying a lens marked Nikon or Nikon-mount on places like ebay where these differences mean just any old lens may very well not work at all or may even damage the camera

ShunCheung · December 20, 2016

As Dieter points out, the problem here is not any lens mount change. Nikon decided to cut cost and size; starting from the D40, Nikon no longer puts an AF motor inside the camera body on their lower-end DX-format DSLRs, as all modern AF lenses have an AF motor inside the lens so that the motor in the body becomes redundant. If you mount old AF lenses onto those lower-end DX bodies, since there is neither an AF motor in the body nor the lens, there is no AF. Otherwise, the other features still work and you can take pictures with those combos.

At least to date, all FX Nikon DSLRs still have the AF motor built in so that they are compatible with all types of F-mount AF lenses (except for the very rare and special F3-AF lenses). However, some time down the road, Nikon may cut cost on low-end FX bodies and may no longer put an AF motor inside.

Today, among DX bodies, the D500 and the D7000 series still have an AF motor inside.

Dieter Schaefer · December 20, 2016

As far as AF lenses are concerned, it is actually quite simple to determine whether or not they are suitable to work (i.e. autofocus) on cameras like the D40X. If they have the slotted screw to drive the AF in the face of the lens mount, then they won't AF with cameras that don't have the corresponding focus drive screw in theirs: <a href="http://static1.discoverdigitalphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/lens-mounts-and-interchangeable-lenses/Nikon-lens-rear.jpg">http://static1.discoverdigitalphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/lens-mounts-and-interchangeable-lenses/Nikon-lens-rear.jpg</a>. That screw (and the corresponding AF motor) is, as Shun pointed out, not available in the lower-end Nikon DX cameras since the D40.

And if the lens is missing the aperture lever, then it's not going to work properly on any Nikon camera released before August 23, 2007 (and the D90 and D3000): <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nw7-puP8u7Y/VoQF-Acbf6I/AAAAAAADJl4/5-6kakYuOZ8/s1600/nikkor%2B85mm%2Bf1.8G%2Bvs%2Bnikkor%2B300mm%2Bf4E%2Baperture.jpg">http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nw7-puP8u7Y/VoQF-Acbf6I/AAAAAAADJl4/5-6kakYuOZ8/s1600/nikkor%2B85mm%2Bf1.8G%2Bvs%2Bnikkor%2B300mm%2Bf4E%2Baperture.jpg</a>; on pre-2007 cameras those E lenses will be usable at their maximum aperture only.

"same mount since 1965"

</blockquote>

To nitpick. the F-mount was introduced in 1959, not 1965; it is a three-lug bayonet mount with a 44 mm throat and a flange to focal plane distance of 46.5 mm. Incompatibilities of pre-AI era lenses with Nikon SLR cameras isn't a new thing but goes back to the film days when Nikon started to sell cameras that didn't allow the Ai-tab to be flipped up. The first ones not to spot that feature were the FM2 in 1982 and the FE2 in 1983, five and six years, respectively, after the introduction of Ai in 1977. In fact, only very few cameras introduced after 1977 have that flippable Ai tab: FM, FE, F3, F4; on the F5 and F6 it was a only available as an after-sales modification. The only Nikon DSLR that has a flippable Ai tab is the Nikon Df. To be fair, for some time in the 80s, Nikon offered to convert pre-Ai lenses to Ai.

How many 1987 Nikon AF lenses will actually work on the latest "Nikon F" cameras?

</blockquote>

On FX cameras, all of them. On the non-consumer level DX bodies, all of them. How many pre-1987 manual focus Canon lenses can be mounted on post-1987 Canon camera bodies? None at all. Should Nikon have gone the same route as Canon when introducing AF and completely changing the mount? Possibly, but they didn't, for better and for worse.

Andrew Garrard · December 20, 2016

Well, that got contentious fast. It is true that Nikon's lens compatibility comes with a "read the small print" disclaimer. Unfortunately any naming convention that Nikon happens to have used (and they're pretty inconsistent) wasn't followed by third parties, so you get the alphabet soup of AF-S/AF-I (Nikon), HSM (Sigma), USD (Tamron), etc. "AF-P" also won't autofocus on the D40x (I'm not clear on the D5200 - it's borderline), but that's not relevant to any long lenses at the moment. I guess we'd have avoided this if Canon and Nikon didn't decide that USM and SWM (the "silent wave motor" that's part of AF-S) were worth protecting as branded technologies.

The only telezoom I'm aware of that's "E" and therefore lacks aperture control on the D40x is the Nikkor 200-500mm f/5.6. The other constraint is requiring the AF motor to be built into the lenses; there are older lenses that lack this (notably the Nikkor 80-400mm AF-D and the Tamron 200-500mm), but the latest generation from any manufacturer definitely don't have this problem.

The bad news is that, as you've noted, older telezoom lenses might have trouble. The worse news is that the image quality of these older lenses is often quite poor anyway, at least at the long end. Even the Sigma 150-500mm will work (it's HSM), but I'd try to find some way of stretching to the latest batch of 150-600mm lenses from Tamron or Sigma if you can: the optical quality is substantially improved, and I'd argue the older ones are a waste of money (although obviously not as much if you go for a very old design). You might also find a 300mm f/4 AF-S as a viable option if you can find a used one on the cheap. Basically, we can advise you (and the 150-500mm OS Sigma is probably the best of a bad bunch), but I think you'll be unhappy with the quality anyway unless you step up to the latest versions for which compatibility isn't a problem (except, as I said, for the Nikkor 200-500mm).

ShunCheung · December 20, 2016

I thought we got over those silly Canon vs. Nikon debates from the 1990's a while back. 2016 is almost over. The 1990's is about a quarter century ago.

JDMvW · December 20, 2016

Me too, but people keep bring up the old saw about the "universal" Nikon F mount. That "fine print" can be pretty important if you're an outsider trying to buy a used lens, which is exactly what the OP was about. I know, I've been there. When I went to buy and try early AF Nikons, it was not so easy to figure out what kind of lens went with a 2020, for example.

I was simply trying to tell the OP to not just buy just any old lens labeled "Nikon mount". That had nothing to do with silly debates.

Andrew Garrard · December 20, 2016

JDM: Fair enough. There's one mount, but it's not enough to tell you everything about compatibility (although usually you get some subset of functionality rather than nothing working at all) - I certainly I agree it's confusing to a newcomer, although Dominic seems to have the issue worked out. This is why Nikon (and others) add so many other letters to lens names, and I hope we've sorted that out a bit too - though it would certainly help if Nikon didn't re-use letters (P and E spring to mind, not to mention "AF-S" itself). I hope anyone here knows better than to claim Nikon have perfect compatibility with all models; frankly I <a href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00eGN4">still wish</a> there was any model with perfect compatibility. Arguably Canon are starting to see this as well with the abilities of their STM lenses, and obviously with EF-S. Both companies have compatibility problems with different vintages of bodies and flashes. This is the cost of progress.

<Fawlty Towers>Don't mention the war!</Fawlty Towers>

ShunCheung · December 20, 2016

Concerning Nikon camera/lens compatibility, in an e-mail discussion with <a href="/photodb/user?user_id=323291">Dieter Schaefer</a>, he suggests that we should share two links:

<ol>

<li>Ken Rockwell, yes, KR: http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm</li>

<li>Nikonians: http://www.nikonians.org/reviews/nikon-slr-camera-and-lens-compatibility</li>

</ol>

Andrew Garrard · December 20, 2016

:-) Ken's version is a little more complete, and it's the main reason I periodically bounce off his site. Neither of them (last I looked) actually cover all combinations, and they certainly don't cover the operation of the F mount as fully as would have been helpful in, for example, the recent Df update thread (I still don't know for sure why the AI coupling ridge isn't in the same position relative to the aperture on f/1.4 and f/2 lenses, for example). I wonder whether there's the possibility to host something on photo,net as a resource? I'm imagining a wiki format so that we could collectively update it, unless someone wants to volunteer to be a maintainer.

JDMvW · December 20, 2016

Although I rarely give any links to the Hypnoken, I have probably posted the link to the Nikonian site more than any two of the rest of you posting in this forum.

I was a died and true Nikonian from 1971 to 2005 -- I was one driven off by the switch to AI :)

In 2005 when I decided to switch to digital (film fogging on a trip to Berlin), I could not find any affordable Nikon digital that would take my old non-AI lenses without modification.

[but I did end up much later getting some very early Kodak digitals made out of Nikons and Canons]

JDMvW · December 21, 2016

Or on reflection, was I "dyed and true" or even "tried and true" ? -- you decide. ;)

Andrew Garrard · December 21, 2016

I think you're thinking of "dyed in the wool", although film dye probably comes into it...

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