My Mamiya 645 Pro can't meter light AND can't focus properly

[tim_tim3]

<p>Hello everybody,<br /><br />I am based in Paris, France, and I recently bought a Mamiya 645 pro kit on ebay (camera body, 120mm back, AE Prism Finder FE401, power winder and the lens Sekor 80mm f/2.8) from a Japanese vendor.<br />It is actually my first time shooting with a medium format camera (and actually almost the first time shooting film). <br /><br />I made a few shots for testing purpose on 2 rolls: Fuji 400h pro (a few weeks ago) and Kodak Portra 400 (a few days ago). I just got the scan from the lab and I have several problems I wanted to share with you.<br /><br /><br /> - First of all, while shooting I noticed that the light metering results proposed by the camera and readable through the AE Prism Finder are completely different to the ones calculated by my Digital Nikon Camera. For example for a single scene I want to shoot, the Nikon calculates 1/1000 second and the Mamiya says 1/4 second. I don't remember this mistake to occur a few weeks ago when I was shooting the Fuji Roll, but it was definitely not working a few days ago while shooting the Kodak Roll. So I shot both using the metering of the Mamiya and the metering of my Digital camera : the Lab results show that the Nikon metering displays the correct exposure...so I guess there is a problem with the Mamiya.<br /><br /> - Second, every single picture I received from the Lab is blurry. I focus manually of course...and well...my subject was perfectly sharp in the viewfinder while shooting. On the Fuji Roll, the subject is out of focus as if the focal plan was 20 to 50 centimeters before...On the Kodak Roll, the subject is like absolutely out of focus (I focused manually on my model and she is totally out of focus whereas the ground that is 3 meters before here is extra sharp)<br /><br />PS : I shot everything at aperture 2.8<br /><br />I am fully disappointed and I have to say I don't know if I did something wrong. It's like nothing is working properly and like it's actually getting worse...Do you have any idea of what is going on and what should I do about it?<br /><br />Thank you very much for your much needed help and I hope I was detailed and clear enough in the description of my issues.<br /><br />Tim</p><div></div>

[kirk_strauchler]

<p>Not going to guess at the metering issues, but I'll guess on the focus issue.</p>

<p>I'll guess that the ground glass is in upside down, not seated properly, or any adjustment screws (if there are any) need to be calibrated. Other possible cause is the film isn't being held flat to the plane of focus, which could be a back issue (weak springs on the pressure plate). But I would investigate the ground glass first. The matte/dull side of the glass should be down. If it's up, there's your problem. If it's mounted correctly, you'll need to re-calibrate the ground glass. It would take me forever to try and explain how to do it, but there are plenty of other discussions online on how to do it.</p>

[tim_tim3]

<p>Thank you Kirk for your answer and consideration.<br />I am still Stuck but please find below some more information...maybe it will help finding the solution.<br /><br /><strong>The direction of the focusing screen</strong> <br />I just checked out the focusing screen inside the camera body (I hope that's what you meant by "Ground glass", if not please let me know). I took it out of the body and found out that indeed the matte/dull side of the glass is looking up and the glossy one is looking down. Nevertheless I also found on youtube 2 video tutorials on "how to change your focusing screen on a Mamiya 645 pro" and it seems that, on these videos, the matte/dull side of the glass is always looking up. <br />I also found out that on the Mamiya 645 Pro, there is no way to put the screen backwards - a little tab for handling works as an index. If you do put it backwards, it won't lock in place.<br /><br /><strong>About the screws</strong><br />Well I think there are no screws for the focusing screen,at least not inside the camera body. The screen is simple inside a carrier attached to the camera body. Nevertheless on the top of the camera body, there are some screws (as seen on the attached image), but I have to say I have no idea what to do with them...and I read on the Internet that "it is not a DIY work" and that the camera should be sent to a professional to calibrate the screen...<br /><br /><strong>The mirror inside the body<br /></strong>I read on the internet that the little piece of plastic supporting the mirror is fragile and can easily break. I checked it out inside the camera body and everything seems to be okay (as seen on the attached image) and the angle of the mirror seems to be 45 degrees. But again it's my first time checking all these things.<br /><br /><strong>The AE Prism Finder FE401<br /></strong>I made a test also comparing what I see directly on the camera body focusing screen and in the prism finder to be sure the focus problem doesn't come from the prism. But I see the exact same thing : when my subject is in focus on the camera focusing screen, it's also in focus when I plug the prism and look in its viewfinder. So I guess the problem doesn't come from here.<br /><br /><strong>Back and lens<br /></strong>As I only have one back and one lens, I can't actually check the behavior of the camera in the same conditions with different ones.<br /><br /><br /></p><div></div>

[Dustin McAmera]

<p>Hi!<br>

My Pro works well, and the screen is shiny side up. </p>

<p><br /><br /></p>

[Dustin McAmera]

<p>Oops - no it's not; I was a dimwit, and forgot that the screen is under a clear cover. Looking again (I took my screen out to check), the top is matte, and the bottom has a fresnel pattern with a shiny, clear centre spot.</p>

[tim_tim3]

<p>Than you Pete for taking the time to answer and to check the details, I really appreciate it.<br />So this confirm the face that the focusing screen is not upside down, but in the right direction.<br /><br />I actually made another test (without any film in the back) just to check something.<br /><br />I took several objects and focused on them manually. For each object I noted : <br /> - the distance between the object and the film plan<br /> - the indication in meters written on the lens when I achieve perfect focus in the focusing screen.<br /><br />Here is what I found out:<br /> - object at 0,86 meter from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 0,75 meter<br /> - object at 2,7 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 1,7 meter<br /> - object at 4,4 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 2,4 meters<br /> - object at 5,2 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 2,7 meters<br /><br />It's like the system has actually a strong front focus. When I see my object perfectly in focus in the focusing screen, the lens is actually set on a focal plan a few centimeters to several meters in front of the object depending on its distance from the film plan.<br /><br />I hope this new input help you help me :D.<br /><br /></p>

[kirk_strauchler]

<p>I had a long response in the process, and while I was doing additional research, I came upon this old photo.net thread: http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00aUH5</p>

<p>You may have already seen it, but it goes into everything I was going to say, and some more. After reading it, I would try and find some good images of the mirror break/rest, and double check to make sure yours is ok.</p>

<p>Oh, and I checked my Mamiya M645 1000S, RB67 SD, C330, C220, and Nikon F3, and Canon AE-1. All have the matte surface of the focus screen (aka ground glass) towards the mirror/lens. Interesting it's the opposite on the Pro.</p>

[kirk_strauchler]

<p>Tim, </p>

<p>The camera is an SLR type, so what you are seeing on the focus screen should be what the film plane is seeing. A lens's distance scale is really only a guide, and not a precise indication of distance. The lens could say it's at 1 ft, but if you're focusing on something 200 feet away, and it's in focus on your focus screen, it'll be in focus on the film. If this was a rangefinder or a TLR, then it would be a (slightly) different story. On an SLR system, it can't be the lens that's front or back focusing, it has to be a different component.</p>

<p>Both rolls you shot were 120. Is your insert a 120 insert? Most likely it is, but even if it isn't that shouldn't account for the huge focus discrepancy you're seeing. Is the pressure plate of the insert springy but firm? Is it pushed into the film back fully until you hear the 'click'?</p>

<p>Things that can cause focus issues include (but may not be limited to);<br>

ground glass/focus screen (incorrectly or incompletely mounted, out of adjustment, upside down, etc)<br>

mirror (not seating correctly, loose, a replacement mirror that is not the correct type)<br>

film plane (film not flat and tight to camera's designed plane of focus)<br>

film insert (wrong type, not seated fully, old and no longer holding film properly against film gate)<br>

film back (not mounted correctly, loose, obstructed mount)</p>

<p>Another (very) unlikely cause could be the film is loaded incorrectly. If you accidentally load the film with the non-emulsion side towards the lens/camera, it could cause some error in focus. I doubt this is your cause, as the amount of misfocus is more then I would expect from misloaded film.</p>

<p>There are probably other possible causes, but if you can eliminate each of the above, you'll figure it out (I think).</p>

<p>Your other possible option is to return the camera. </p>

 

[ondebanks]

<p>There is a way to distinguish whether the problem is in the body or the lens. The body sends the image plane to two separate locations (focus screen when the mirror is down; film plane when the mirror is up) - so if the image looks the same at both locations, it's not the body.</p>

<p>So I would recommend that you get a piece of clear perspex, cut it to size so that it can sit on the inner rails of the film back, and rough it with fine sandpaper to make a "ground glass". Alternatively, get one of the cheap replacement plastic screens for 6x6 cameras and trim it a little to fit on the 645 rails.<br>

With the camera tripod mounted, and the shutter open on B or T, examine the image on the film plane screen (with a magnifying loupe...a reversed camera normal lens can be a good substitute). Does the appearance correspond to the image of the same subject seen on the viewfinder focus screen, when you close the shutter and drop the mirror?</p>

<p>Another possibility is that the AE prism was fitted with a diopter lens which is not the normal neutral one. You would be focusing your camera based on someone else's long or short sight!<br>

The way to check this is to remove the prism and focus directly on the screen (again using the loupe).</p>

 

[rodeo_joe1]

I'd strongly advise you to send that Mamiya proTL back for a refund. I was a long time user of Mamiya metal-bodied 645 cameras, owning a 1000S and M and J bodies. These never gave me a moments trouble and in fact are still working.

 

Then I was tempted to "upgrade" to 645 supers and a proTL. What a mistake! These are the most unreliable cameras I've ever owned. The backs don't fit very firmly, the contacts between back and body are unreliable, the mirror brake/rest is flimsy and prone to cracking, and finally the shutter release solenoid is poorly fitted and will work loose - rendering the camera inoperable. Out of 3 bodies I now have none in working order after only a short while of fairly light use.

 

 

"Worst camera ever!" As a certain character from the Simpsons would say.

[glen_h]

<blockquote>

<p>Here is what I found out:<br />- object at 0,86 meter from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 0,75 meter<br />- object at 2,7 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 1,7 meter<br />- object at 4,4 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 2,4 meters<br />- object at 5,2 meters from the film plan -> the lens says approximatively 2,7 meters<br>

</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Agreeing with your picture, it is focussing too close, which means that the lens is too far from the film.<br>

<br>

That would happen if the focus screen was too close, or the mirror position decreased the lens-mirror-screen distance.<br>

<br>

From the numbers, (1/2.7m - 1/5.2m) is about 0.18/m, about the same for two of the other pairs. With an 0.08m lens, that happens when the lens is about 0.0011m too far out.<br>

<br>

I suspect it is mirror position, though I don't know how to test for that. </p>

[polka]

<p>Some questions and some tests :<br /> With the lens blocked at infinity, viewing a scene very far away (mountain, distant building...), is it focused on the groundglass ? and/or is it focused on the film when the picture is taken ?<br /> If it is focused on the film but not on the groundglass, then the position of the miror is wrong : in your case, the miror may be 0.5mm too thick or too advanced. But maybe there is another possibility : do this other test :<br /> Place yourself right in front of a plane vertical surface (let's say a brick wall at 1 or 2m) and focus the center of the picture on the groundglass. Do the upper and the lower borders of the image seem as well focused as the center ? if not, then the miror may not be exactly at 45° with the film and the groundglass plane (the miror should be exactly in the bissecting plane of the right angle [90°] formed by the film plane and the groundglass plane). <br /> To confirm this, another possible test would be to block the lens at infinity and to view a very distant object putting its image on the groundglass alternatively near the upper and the lower borders. If the miror is not exactly at 45°, then the image of the distant object should seem better focused near the lower border than near the upper border.</p>

[tim_tim3]

<p>Thank you all so much for your detailed answers, I can feel your involvement and passion while reading them.<br /><br />@Paul I tried this, and apparently it's not the mirror :s.<br />@Rodeo Joe, so sorry to read this :s, may I ask what camera are you shooting with then?<br />@Glen thank you for your help, hope a solution will be find by the expert<br>

I gave the camera to an expert in order for him to give me his opinion and how much it would cost to fix it. In the meantime I found a very good deal for a Pentax 645n so I will receive it very soon (and I hope this one will be working normally).<br>

<br /><br /></p>