Thinking about moving into LF

[michael_abbott2]

Hi All,

 

I've been thinking about moving into LF for a long while now on and off. One thing that stops me every time form making a purchase is

the sheer variety of gear. Unless I but a complete ready to go rig - Technikarden + lenses etc I have no idea what is compatible with what.

Example:

I really like the look of a wooden field camera like the Shen Hao TZ45 (new) and a Nikon 135mm f5.6 or Fujinon 90mm f8 (both used).

The Shen Hao I think comes with type 0 lens board, so, would those lenses be ok?

Also would I need bag bellows for the 90mm?

Which film holders would I need - Fidelity or Graflok.

 

Apart from making mistakes, how do you go about finding out about compatibility between everything.

 

BTW. I've had 35mm (Canon FD) and medium format (Mamiya RB67) in the past so am familiar with film in general. Now using a Nikon

D700 + 35 f2, 50 f1.4, 24 f3.5 PC-E, and 105 f2.8 macro.

 

Regards,

Michael.

[AJG]

<p>One of the nice things about LF cameras is that almost all lenses will fit most cameras, provided you have the correct size opening in the lens board. They may not function perfectly (covering power, etc.) but they can be physically attached to the camera via the lens board. Most lenses made in the last 40-50 years will come in standard shutter sizes--#0,#1 and #3 being the most common. If you have a board with a smaller hole, e.g. a #0 and need to mount a #1 shutter, it is pretty easy to get a repair person to make it larger. Any camera available new should have lens boards available in the standard sizes. It is well worth the expense to mount each lens in a board, so that you don't have to mount and dismount shutters with the retaining ring all the time. I'm not familiar with the Shen Hao specs, so I don't know if you would need a bag bellows for a 90, but I would be surprised if you did. As for film holders, the most common recent holders in the US are Lisco and Fidelity. I happen to use Lisco, but I think the Fidelity brand is also good. For functional reasons, resist the temptation to get vintage wooden holders that are frequently warped and leak light. Graflok refers to sliding levers on the back of the camera that allow roll film backs to be attached to the camera, and if I were buying a 4x5 I would make sure that it was compatible with that system. Good luck!</p>

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for that. Now I appreciate that the number on associated with lens board corresponds with shutter to be used.

That alone will make it easier to decide on what to go for.

Regards,

Michael.

[bob_salomon]

Not only do you need the correct size and opening you also have to have the proper type of board. If your camera will

need some type of recessed board so your lens can focus to infinity a flat board will not work. Similarly, if your camera

does not have enough bellows extension for a lens that you want to use at infinity, or to squeeze a bit of extra

magnification in a close up then you will need a top hat type board, not a flat one.

[Jochen_S]

<p>I'm not familiar with Shen Hao. - Linhof Technika copes with 90mm in a recessed board, but if it had as much movements as a monorail that would be borderline for the standard bellows around infinity. <br>

Looking at <a href="http://www.shen-hao.com/PRODUCTS.aspx?i=187&id=n3">http://www.shen-hao.com/PRODUCTS.aspx?i=187&id=n3</a> I wouldn't pick the TZ-45II<strong>B</strong> with 110mm minimum draw for a 90mm lens.<br>

I'd dare to file a lensboard hole wider on my own, but professionals might do that job 0.75mm more precisely...<br>

Graflok backs / holders would be pretty uncommon. - From my limited understanding they were intended for cameras with other means of focusing than the ground glass; i.e. either SLRs or press cameras with range meter. I use my Graflok roll holder with external finder nad range meter and a slide in Calumet for ground glass focussed close up work.</p>

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Bob, Jochen,

 

Thanks for your contributions. It just underlines the ease with which I could spend a lot of cash on stuff that won't work

together. It had never occurred to me about bellows extension or rather compression in the case of infinity focusing.

 

Is there a way to find out what bellows extension equates to whether a particular lense can focus to infinity.

 

Regards,

Michael.

[AJG]

<p>Michael, I don't know where you live, but I think it would be well worth a trip to a dealer who sells large format equipment to see things in the flesh and talk to a knowledgeable sales rep. My first reply was intended to be general, but Mr. Salomon brings up some very important points about the compatibility of specific components. There are books available, and websites as well that would be helpful also, but buying a system somewhere that you can see that everything works together would be worth some money over trying to piece things together on eBay. You also haven't said what kind of photography that you are planning to do with the 4x5--that decision can lead to different camera types (field vs. studio monorail) that are very important for usability and comfort. For example, a light weight field camera would be a poor choice if you were primarily interested in doing extreme close up/macro photography, since they typically have short bellows extension that limits close focusing with longer lenses. Conversely, a heavy studio monorail will be a chore to haul out in the field for wide angle landscape photography where long bellows are not as necessary and recessed boards and bag bellows will probably be needed, adding to inconvenience.</p>

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Andrew,

 

I'm in the north of the U.K. - York. There doesn't seem to be any dealers anywhere around. There's Robert White down in

Dorset. The kit I've seen on the 'net is a dealer near Inverness!

Maybe it's a LF desert near me....

 

Regarding the type of photography, landscape, architecture, still life, maybe portraits. So bellows extension not that

important apparently.

 

Regards,

M.

[Jochen_S]

<p>I'm pretty clueless, - I suppose there are diagrams with measurements floating around? Schneider's / Rodenstock's homepages? - I assume a lens might need focal length minus 0.5" of compressed bellows. Also an entirely compressed bellows hinders movements, so it is better avoided. - I think I read the Technika should be considered a rigid camera with lenses shorter than 90mm cobbled on it.<br>

There are some old Shen Hao related threads here and I suppose the cameras didn't change drastically over the years. And maybe there is a more popular forum elsewhere? <br>

IDK what you are calling a still life, but framing my coffee mug could be a 1:1 macro shot requiring 2x focal length of bellows draw.</p>

[bob_salomon]

A Master Technika, Technika 2000 or 3000 or a V are fully capable of movements with 75 and shorter lenses, as long as

the proper lens board and/or adapter is used. And Jochan, not all 90mm lenses on a Technika require a recessed board. The 90mm 4.5 Grandagon N and the older Grandagon use a flat board.

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for that info. This whole thing is beginning to look suspiciously like the mine field that I thought it might be. I think

I've got a plan though - following Andrews advice, I'll save up for a while with view to buying a system I.e. Camera either a

field or a monorail, lens(es)' film holders etc. Rather than trusting to mail order dealers/ eBay that way, hopefully all will be

well. While I'm doing this I plan how to prosess my negs/transparencies - I can't ever see me having the room for a full on

darkroom as I used to have, but a dark space to load and process is doable.

 

Regards,

M. Abbott.

[AJG]

<p>Michael--a large changing bag can work for loading sheet film holders and loading some processing tanks. Get one with a built in frame so that the bag isn't draped all over your film and hands, it is well worth the extra expense. I've used a large Jobo tank and reels for thousands of sheets of 4x5 B&W with consistent results and I would certainly recommend it over dip and dunk tanks that would require total darkness for developing and fixing.</p>

[bob_salomon]

The CombPlan T is the easiest to load, is totally daylight, except for loading the film, has very even development with its

inversion agitation, has a very small footprint and is also a forced film washer if you attach a hose to the bottom connector

of the tank. Then all that you would need after development is a line to hang the film on and flip clips or clothes pins.

[garethspics]

<p>I was in a similar position to you and I went for a Crown Graphic. Relatively simple to use and not too expensive. There are so many other things to get used to apart from the camera. Do you have access to a large format enlarger? Printing 5x4 is something else, the quality is incredible.</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

I wouldn't recommend anything other than Toyo

cutfilm holders these days. I have Fidelities that

have warped and wont close properly, and I don't

think Graflex have made film-holders for quite some years.

 

All the Toyo DDs that I have, some from the 1960s,

are still in perfect condition.

 

As others have said, large format is pretty much a mix'n'match arena; with most LF cameras being able to take almost any lens/shutter combination - with some limitations of course.

 

As for processing: Jobo's tank system and cut-film insert is about as easy as it gets, and economical on processing chemicals. The Combiplan needs around 1 litre of liquid per process IIRC and so doesn't lend itself to "one shot" use.

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Gareth,

 

There's no way I'll ever have the room to devote to a bona fide dark room, but I'm sure large format printing is incredible. I

still remember the printing I first did when I got my Mamiya RB67 and compared it to my Canon F1n in the eighties.

 

Hi Rodeo Joe,

 

One of the things I have found difficult is locating what appear to be decent quality DDS's. I 've not found any new ones in

the UK and those I've seen on used dealer web sites and on that auction site don't seem to upto much. However, there

does seem to be more hope in the US so might have to resort to that eventually.

 

Regards,

M. A.

[jnanian]

<p>there have been recent posts on the large format website regarding non-light-proof-toyo-darkslides.<br>

this one was from a few months ago on the lf forum: <br>

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?131636-Blotchy-pattern-on-4x5-negatives<br>

similar issues have appeared on other websites as well.</p>

[zelph_young]

<p>One good way to start is to buy a camera one lens from someone who has used it. You know it works and can learn without worry about changing much of anything. A basic 4x5 to 8x10, one lens, a few film holders, a meter & a cable release and you are ready to go.<br>

A few trays for processing film in the dark will work at first - and in the long run many of us do this type of development by choice. Darkened room, even the kitchen or bathroom will work if you can use it without the family getting too upset. Use and clean after the fact.<br>

Contact print the B&W work yourself. Very easy and the quality is as good as you are. <br>

<br />Don't make it complicated. Work with a small set up for a year or so and you will discover whether you really need wider or longer lenses. You will get your workflow set and know how you and the camera get along.<br>

Don't be surprised to find the first camera might be a pain in the backside. A different model may well be easier - but you have to start with something.<br>

Morley Baer, a US West Coast photographer who was excellent used one 8x10 camera for decades. Knowing your gear is much better than having a lot of it you aren't quite sure of.</p>

[michael_abbott2]

Hi Zelph, J. Nanian,

 

Thanks for your guidance. Good advice no matter what the format - 1 camera, 1 lens.

 

Regards,

M. A.

[neil_poulsen8]

<p>The word that caught my eye is architecture. How much of this do you plan do to do? Will it be exterior, or interior. </p>

<p>For this kind of work, you may need a camera capable of more movements than a typical flatbed, something that can accept interchangeable bellows. </p>

<p>Sinar F series cameras can be reasonably priced and work well for architecture. It's pretty easy to find a front adapter Sinar lensboard to accept Technika boards, to keep boards small. This setup will accept most all lenses. Bag bellows for these cameras run about $50 or $60. (Note bad, comparatively.) While not great, they're reasonably backpack-able.</p>

<p>I find the following brands, with some notable exceptions, run from least to most expensive: Fujinon, Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock. I've concentrated on Schneider, and have been quite satisfied. Symmar-S lenses are high quality and sell for reasonable prices. (Avoid those with silver speckles on the front optic.) Even the Super Angulon multi-coated lenses can be found for reasonable prices. The "XL" Schneider lenses are a different story.</p>

<p>For architecture, a 90mm Super Angulon is typically the most used lens. For exterior, I usually don't need a wider lens. (e.g. 75mm.)</p>