gunbu Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Some time ago I was able to purchase a very beautiful early Super Ikonta 530/2 that otherwise working great shows a very peculiar shutter behaviour. All times are working except of the slow speeds below 1/25 - so far not unusual. But here the 1 sec. works perfectly ONLY after tripping the 1/25 before! So, when I want to use 1sec. I have to always release the shutter 1/25 beforehand. If I use any other time before and then 1 sec. the shutter stays open. If I use 1/10 - 1/2 the shutter stays open likewise. The selftimer also works reliably so I doubt if the problem here is sticky slow time gears. As far as I can see the camera has never been opened before, screw heads really look untouched, rangefinder is top! Has anyone heard of a similar problem before? Thanks for any input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_mareno1 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 <p>Probably just gummed up in there. I would just leave it as it is because you can always time 1 second using the B setting and a cable release. I've owned many, many folders, and never once needed 1 second exposures.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 <p>All shutters use a mechanical delay gear train to time speeds from 1 second to 1/100 - 1/125 second, faster speeds are achieved by booster springs. Compur shutters use a coil torsion spring like a watch to control the timing. If the slow speeds are off then the faster speed are likely off also. Continuing to run a sluggish shutter results in a shutter that will never restore to correct speeds once a CLA is preformed.</p> <p>Compur shutters are a 7 or 8 on a scale of 10 in difficulty to service if one is experienced with shutter servicing and a 12 to 15 on the same scale if one is just starting out.</p> <p>I'm not trying to scare you, just stating what to expect.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 Thanks for your thoughts! Steve - that's how I am using it now, though not frequently. I am not sure if I would want to open it/ get it repaired because it is in a nice untouched state, however, I would like to know a bit what might be the cause here and I would not want to damage it more than it has happened already. This camera came to me with this problem. Charles - I have successfully cleaned dial Compur shutters, less experience with rim Compur, I have a repair manual though... My main concern here is the rangefinder that has to be dissasembled to get to the shutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 <p>I serviced a Compur Rapid that one shutter diagram matched the bottom of the main plate and a different shutter diagram for the top side and front cover.<br> Is this the manual you have? http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/manuels_rep/obturateurs/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html<br> Synchro Compur has some special screws that you will have to make a tool for or improvise with what you have.</p> <blockquote> <p>My main concern here is the rangefinder that has to be dissasembled to get to the shutter.</p> </blockquote> <p>The rangefinder should be fairly basic. Pay close attention to how its connected as you disassemble the linkage. Calibrate it on reassembly by focusing the lens wide open on a target at least 5000 feet away then setting the rangefinder to match. Celestial objects make good infinity targets.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 Charles - thanks for the tips! I am not sure if it was this manual, but I think it was about Synchro Compur, can't find it right now... However, helpful link! My experience with these rangefinders is caution! I now mark everything after once it happened to me that the two small prisms fell out of their place on a different camera, never got them back again in the right way so far. Aligning the lens to the rangefinder mechanism is fiddle but managable. In my experience it's a work where you have to permanently watch your steps. I had many Super Ikontas with way- off rangefinders and found it always a tedious work to get them back to specs. On this camera I am simply not yet sure if I will be able to track down the problem, so I might keep it as it is for the first until I understand the nature of the problem. It is from 1934 and has never been opened, that demands respect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <p>There are no Ikonta camera listed in the manual I linked in my previous post so it will be a visual inspection to find the matching shutter.<br> Which shutter is on the camera, Compur, Compur Rapid, or Synchro Compur?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Charles - Sorry for the late response, currently in hospital, so could not respond earlier... The shutter is a Compur, top speed is 1/300. it is the first version with the beautiful art deco style front.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Ops, sorry, top speed is 1/250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 <p>Nice looking camera. I understand your reluctance to open it up. I don't have any specific information on it. The manual I linked covers shutters from the mid 1950's to the early 1970's. They are later refinements of that one.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Thanks! No need to rush here... So far I can still use it without the slow times. Time will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_nixon2 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 <p>I would say that this problem is one of the the timing trains. The shutter itself is quite straight forward as Compurs go. There is a slow speed train and a faster one. I had to replace one of the trains once. On these Super Ikontas its the double prism range finder that can give you a lot of grief. Just mark every thing. Mark the front and back prisms in relation to each other at infinity focus. Do the same for the gear train that drives the prisms. There is a link to a site that might help if you have the gear spring off.<br> http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/info/1.htm<br> Good Luck</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 Greg - thanks! This is indeed helpful! I know from bitter personal experience with another Super Ikonta what kind of pain these prisms can give!! Therefore I wanted to find out more about the nature of the shutter problem before starting. Now I was wondering if it is possible to access these trains from the front after removing the front cell, this would avoid disengaging the whole rangefinder system. I had a hard time on a B to get the focus back to specs after disassembly - trial and error... With Zeiss Ikon cameras I find the best advice is "Never switch off a runnig system" . This morning busy trying to clean the finder of a Ikoflex and thought: Lord, praise the Rolleiflex! Rarely things are straight forward on this Zeiss marvels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_nixon2 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 <p>This site has a blow by blow description of how to dismantle the shutter and how to get it back together again.<br> http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zeiss%20super%20ikonta.html<br> There is also another site which I can no longer find, for setting the range finder, if the prisms hadn't been disturbed in relation to one another. If I find it I'll sent you the address.<br> The shutter is in the Compur repair manual. I have that and can scan and send the pages. I think from memory it was a 1306 or similar.<br> The shutter can be accessed from the front right down to the aperture blades. You may need to access the back to release some of the screws.<br> Just Google Super Ikonta range finder adjustment and there will be a lot of sites come up.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 <p>There are two timing gear trains in Compur shutters. One is for speeds 1 second to 1/125 second the other is the self timer delay called delayed action in the manual. Speeds above 1/125 are achieved by booster springs.<br> CN-1307-000 is for a #1 Synchro Compur. Probably a close match to the Compur. <br> The Compur in Greg's second post link looks to be a #0 or a 00 shutter but is very similar build to the CN-1307-000.</p> <p>A caution about the shutter speed timer. Pressing in on lever 302 releases the gear train and 305 will disengage from the gear train allowing coil torsion spring 314 to fully unwind. There is no specification as to how to set the tension for spring 314 so its trial and error. Gear 310 is turned then 305 meshed with it with lever 302 depressed then 302 is released. Correct position is with spring 314 near its mid point but 1 gear tooth of 305 to 310 makes the difference between all speeds being good or some speeds being good.</p><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 Greg, Charles - again, great thanks for the detailed information! I think somewhere I have a Compur Rapid shutter where I might practice first. Having just tried out to fire the shutter of that Super Ikonta again, I realized in most cases the shutter stays open on the speeds from 1/1-1/25, after that, the cocking lever is not running back freely. I guess something is bent, broken and probably the whole slow speed train has to be exchanged, so have to find a proper replacement... Self timer is running perfectly though. I was just thinking these days, isn't that a pity, those Zeiss engineers were trying to find the best possible solutions they could think of regardless of the costs, and today so many of these technical beauties with their outstanding design ideas are standing in shelves collecting dust just because of this design philosophy! Making them often too difficult and cost intensive to repair... Thinking of the Contarex, the film transport mechanism of the Ikoflex, the rangefinder systems, the Contax and Miroflex shutters etc. - while their cheap competitors keep on working... Maybe that's time's revenge on them for taking pride in finding such exclusive solutions. I once read that a repair at Zeiss Ikon was usually done by disassembling the whole camera and letting it pass again through the whole production process again! Just imagine this today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 <blockquote> <p>I realized in most cases the shutter stays open on the speeds from 1/1-1/25, after that, the cocking lever is not running back freely. I guess something is bent, broken and probably the whole slow speed train has to be exchanged, so have to find a proper replacement</p> </blockquote> <p>Most likely the delay gearing is gummed up or misadjusted. The spring 309 on gear lever 305 has 4 slots it can be hooked into. Normal is 2nd from the left, placing it in the first from the left allows for faster running. The left end too close to the center of the case will block the cocking ring 528 (tafel 1 of the manual).</p> <p>I have a synchro compur that will not run faster than 1/50 second with the delay gear train removed. I used a tension gauge to measure the pull force of the main cocking spring and its the same as the same model that runs 1/200 for its top speed which is 1 stop slow. I repaired a low usage shutter of the same vintage that someone had misassembled. It is when I learned the spring 314 adjustment. It took me 10 to 20 times of removing the delay mechanism, adjusting the tension, reinstalling then testing the speeds. It came back to all speeds within 1/4 stop of perfect and produced negatives of equal density regardless of exposure combination of a monotone target in constant lighting. I wish they all would do that. On one with moderate to heavy wear, all speeds within 1/2 stop is very good.</p> <p>The Synchro Compur I learned on housed a 270 Tele Optar. My Synchro Compurs house 210/370 Schneider Symmars. I have returned to service two Compur Rapids from the late 1930's early 1940's that were rusted shut.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 Thanks Charles, for going in detail through this problem! You made me aware that I probably need to practice a little more on my repair skills. I have looked with a magnifying glass at the screw heads and I cannot see any marks! Whoever went in there was at least a specialist in getting them out! This seems to be rather untouched... I wonder if this problem might have occurred after misuse, like, tensioning the shutter before dialing in the highest speed, a common fault with people unfamiliar with Compur shutters. Anyway, I might use it like it is for a little while before I consider a DIY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Charles, one more thing, if you would be so kind and find the time: I have now had time to study all information given and one more (important) question. How do I make sure that by disassembling and lifting the slow time train out from the shutter I do not by chance push lever 302 or through similar actions risk to unwind spring 314? Is it usually safe to take the slow train gear out or does this happen frequently? That would be a really good to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirteenthumbs Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 <p>Before loosening the mount screws for the delay timer push 302 back and hold, push pin on 305 toward the outer case as far as it will go, release 302 then 305. Lift out carefully avoiding touching 302. Examine carefully once removed in the event 302 releases 305 during cleaning so you can reset it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbu Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 Thanks again, you made my day! That's a real good hint. I'll be definetly practicing this on a different shutter before... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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