johncox Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>I'm looking at buying a M4-P and I've read some mixed information.<br>Does the M4-P finder show 28mm frame lines or does it only go to 35mm?<br>Does the M4-P have the same base length as a M3? I'm going to put a magnifier on it and i would like to get as close to (or better than) M3 EBL as possible.<br>On the models with a brass top are the gears steel or brass?<br>Lastly would it make sense to go with a 1.25X magnifier for use with a 50mm or could I look at a 1.4x? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_elwing Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>Yes<br> Yes<br> don't know; probably brass. I think M4-2 was steel<br> 1.35-1.4 if you want M3 style viewfinder; just my opinion.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 M3 has the longest effective rangefinder base of all the M's, and only finder lines for 50, 90 and 135mm as a result. There's info all over the web about Leica rangefinder base magnification. Here's one.. https://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm M4-P's all have the 28mm frame lines. It is the model that introduced the 28mm finder frame lines. A tech will need to respond regarding the steel vs. brass question, but you don't need to worry to be honest. Unless you just recklessly bash the heck out of one, any M you buy is going to outlive you. I have the 1.4x magnifier for use with my M4, M6 and M9 bodies, but only use it with the 90 and 135mm lenses. No magnifier is really needed with a 50mm lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncox Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>Thanks Greg, are the 50mm lines view able with the 1.4x magnifier?<br> Also I've looked at that link, but I've also read on other sites that all Leica base lengths (not effective base lengths) are the same, thus the question.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>John, I guess you use the acronyms BL as base length (in centimetres or other) and EBL as effective base length. The latter is quite different between the M4-P and M3 due to differing VF magnifications and indicates the difference in rangefinder precision between the two (mostly important at other then close distances). Adding a magnifier would make the M4-P more similar to the M3. The M4-2 and M4 have 35-50-90-135 framelines, whereas the M4-P added the 28 and 75 mm frames as well. I've used both and think that if you don't need one or two of the added framelines the viewing is a bit better with the M4 and M4-2 (which is my case, as I use 35 and 21mm on the short end).</p> <p>I have no idea about the materials of construction of the gears, but have always assumed that whatever alloy was used it was more than sufficient in durability for my moderate use of the camera (which never exceeded about 50 to 70 rolls of film per year). I read somewhere (Leica FAQ of Andrew Nemeth?) that brass gears apparently give a slightly smoother action. That may be important to you in picture making. Zinc casting is more impact resistant than brass for top plates and in rough use (and less costly to fashion for top plates than brass) and was used in both Midland and Wetzlar for some models, until they turned to computer controlled machines fashioning brass forms.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Yes, the 50mm lines just about take up the full finder view of my three bodies with the 1.4x attached. If you have a metered body like an M6 or digital M9, you have to shift the view slightly to get a glimpse at the meter diodes below. The Leica magnifiers are pricey for sure, but excellent quality and they definitely make a difference for me using the 90mm Summicron at f2, or also would if you wanted to use a lens like the 50mm f1 wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncox Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>Thanks for the help guys.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mukul_dube Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>I was unable to focus my M6 before its finder was "upgraded". I understand that the M finder was ruined in the life-time of the M4-2.<br> My M6 also had a distressingly inaccurate 50mm frame in the finder. My guess is that this was caused by stuffing a 28mm frame into a 0.72 finder, which is only enough for 35mm.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_Lai Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 <p>The M4-P gives you a 28mm frame line. However, if you wear glasses, you will find that it is impossible to use the 28mm frame line without scanning around a lot. If you really want to use the 28mm frame line, then I suggest an M6TTL, M7, or MP with a 0.58X viewfinder.</p> <p>Even easier is to buy the least loved M of them all, the M4-2. It will start you off with a 35mm frameline, which is visible and usable. The M4-2 are the cheapest M to buy due to considerable prejudice against them.</p> <p>All Leica M cameras have the same rangefinder base length. The effective base length is that multiplied by the viewfinder magnification. Thus, all cameras with 0.72x magnification will give you the same effective baselength.<br> This applies to the M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M6, M7, MP, M-A with the 0.72x finder.</p> <p>The M4-2 introduced steel gears to withstand the strain of the motor drive that was introduced with it. This primitive motor drive puts torque on the winding gears continuously. Brass would have worn out due to this. The latest Motor Drive M doesn't do this, so it is not a concern if you don't have the early motor drive. Nevertheless, all of the subsequent Leica M models from the M4-2 onwards have steel gears. You can mount a Leicavit M, Abrahmson Rapid winder, or Motor M on all of these cameras.<br> I have brass gears in my M3 and M2, and steel ones in the M7. They are all smooth if they have been serviced.</p> <p>If you put a 1.4x finder magnifier on the 0.72 finder, then you end up with a 1:1 view. You can looks through the scene with both eyes open. The frameline and RF patch will seem to float in space. It's a very cool effect.<br> Having said that, I find that the 1.4X gives me a tunnel vision effect. I like the 1.25x for general use.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 <p>The M4-2 has no 28mm frame. As a glasses wearer I was never very fond of the magnifiers. They work, but it's not elegant.</p> Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_elwing Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 <p>Depends on your prescription, Robin. I have dioptric adjustment on non-Leica 1.35 magnifier set to glasses off. My astigmatism is minor, and it gives a very clean usable image. People with exotic prescription, such as serious astigmatism, wouldn't be happy. No, it's not elegant.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_elwing Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 <p>I first got a Thumbs Up e-clypse 1.25x magnifier but it didn't work for me. The dioptric didn't work for me and I got tunnel effect like Robert. Clearly the magnifiers vary a bit.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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