Reactions from Nikon D5/D500 Launch Event

[Barry Clemmons Photography]

<p>If there are indeed 80K D500 preorders in the U.S. alone, that would lend credence to the notion that the reason for the delay is to prevent people from reselling the initial shipment for a significant markup as has happened in the past with other products.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>"dynamic range" on dxomark you'll see that even at the pixel level the dynamic range is much greater on the D7200</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Indeed - and above ISO500 at par with the D700 (and much better below).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The 2007 D300 was not as efficient in collecting photons hence today a smaller area of the D7200 sensor produces as much tonal content than a twice as large area on the D300 sensor</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Point taken - makes you wonder what results a 12MP DX sensor could produce today.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>However, he also emphases that If you preorder at the event, you would receive your camera as soon as Nikon starts shipping.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Didn't hear that at the event I attended. In fact, at my local store (actually part of a mostly Southern Californian chain) unless the initial number of shipped unit is increased from its current level they could not make such a promise - they already have more pre-ordered D500 cameras than promised by Nikon for the initial shipment. And from what I've heard, NPS members have priority - and their pre-orders alone may eat up most of the initial shipment already.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>BTW, our Nikon rep mentioned that there are some 80K D500 preorder in the U.S. already.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What is that - about a month or month-and-a-half of production at the Thailand facility? Clearly, there is "no market" for a high-end DX camera priced similarly to (or even above) an FX body. Wonder if they sold that many Df in the introductory year in the US?</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Nikon doesn't release these numbers often; I recall that back in 2007, initially Nikon was producing 80K D300 and 8K D3 per month. After a few months, they went up to 90K D300 a month. One difference was that the D3 was introduced almost a full year before the following Olympics. In 2012 and 2016, the D4 and D5 have shorter lead time to the summer Olympics such that there is more pressure to get the D5 right immediately.</p>

<p>In any case, since the US is roughly 1/3 of the camera market, 80K orders in the US roughly translates to one month of production (as least based on D300 numbers) and worldwide demand is probably 3 times of that. Nikon maybe able to produce sufficient D500 from January thru April to satisfy all initial demand, and production might have an earlier start than January 2016. The risk is that if some bug is discovered that is hardware related, they could be recalling a lot of cameras. Firmware problem is much easier to fix.</p>

<p>However, I would take the reps numbers with a grain of salt. At least based on the D800 experience, plenty of folks pre-ordered the D800 from multiple stores, B&H, Adorama, Amazon ... and took whichever that came through first. In other words, there could easily be 2, 3 times as many pre-orders than actual buyers, and the stores could be dealing with a lot of returns, but that is their headache.</p>

<p>Back in 2007, the D300 was in high demand as well. And I walked into my local store (Keeble and Shuchat) and bought from their second shipment a week after the initial shipment. Their first shipment pretty much fulfilled everybody who had pre-ordered. By the second week, they had a bunch in stock. Personally, I would rather wait a bit and let some other pioneers check out the early samples.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>In reality there hasn't been much change in light collection efficiency after the D3s and there hasn't been much change in dynamic range since D7000; these are the breakthrough cameras in terms of sensor design. There has been some subtle improvement since but it is really subtle. </p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is an entirely rational argument. However, i would like to believe that Nikon has tweaked the d500's high-ISO performance, as we have seen iterative improvements from one generation to the next before, and we also get a new metering and AF system which may account for better performance as well. The question for me is, just how much better? My Fuji APS-C bodies are much cleaner than my D300 was at high-ISO, although some may chalk that up to aggressive NR. im not sure the theoretical improvement window allows APS-C to close much ground on FX, but it is certainly possible we will continue to see incremental improvements on previous-gen DX.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Buy a D500 for its new AF, high fps, and large number of continuous shots in a burst, not for any expectation of better image quality.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, it should have better IQ than a d300 or d300s, but perhaps not compared to a d7100 or d7200. in fact, if i was a d7200 owner, i probably wouldnt upgrade to a d500 unless i specifically needed those improvements Ilkka mentions. i did read an article by Ming Thein praising the d5500 for its IQ and overall bang-for-the-buck value, which lends credence to the argument that almost any contemporary camera is capable of excellent IQ these days.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Eric, did you get a chance to go? There was one at Berkeley yesterday and one in San Francisco tonight (already full).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>i did not, but i may wander down to Looking Glass once the cameras are officially-released. waiting in line with 100 people to briefly examine a body doesnt sound like how i'd want to evaluate it. I'd prefer to have more quality time with a camera.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>waiting in line with 100 people to briefly examine a body doesnt sound like how i'd want to evaluate it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Totally understandable. Based on what I have observed on the web, it looks like some of the other events are not as crowded and people got to spend a little more time playing around with the cameras. E.g. in Santa Barbara they had three D500 samples available. It seems like the one I attended was overcrowded and they only had 1 each for the D5 and D500. Perhaps they could have done two sessions (3pm and then again at 5pm) as they did at B&H.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Not entirely sure what the purpose of this launch event was - when they can't even present the "finished" product and don't have a sufficient number of cameras on hand. Also, because of the lack of finished product, many questions went unanswered - the reps themselves didn't know and didn't have enough time with the cameras themselves. </p>

<p>Pre-orders had already rolled in before the launch event - not sure how many undecided were swayed and ordered on at the event. </p>

<p>Personally, the fact that an "unfinished" D500 (the D5 appeared ready) was shown, together with the shipping delay made me rather less inclined to order one on the spot and enforced my resolve to "wait and see". Which - in light of a possibly months-long shortage - is quite likely all I can do now anyway.</p>

[ShunCheung]

The purpose is to generate publicity and pre-orders. My local store offers a free D5 training class with a pre-order. It looks

like a store in Sacramento gives a free XQD card with pre-order: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57249202

 

Those cards retail for a couple hundred dollars.

 

I see no sign that there will be any major shortage for the D500.

[michael_chuang1]

<p>Hunt's Photo in Melrose, MA (just north of Boston) had their events on Thursday, with presentations each hour. Either three or four presentations total were scheduled. The first session at 4pm had just over 40 pre-registered attendees; I'm pretty sure over 100 people signed up in total. There were I believe three D500's for inspection (a fourth was taken out of service after it was discovered that someone had damaged a control -- if I overheard correctly the joystick). Each D500 had the 16-80 lens mounted, though they did not stop people from mounting their own lenses. As others have noted, the card slots were gaffer-taped shut and the samples were clearly identified by the reps as "pre-production." There wasn't time to get even close to familiar with the camera, other than to say that it felt "right" in the hand to a former D300 shooter (and bitter clinger to same, Nikon-wise). IQ could only be assessed on the rear screen, but even there (and not surprisingly) ISO 51200 looked quite blotchy; 6400 looked like it might clean up okay, but a couple of minutes playing with the camera is not much of a basis for evaluation.</p>

<p>While Alex the rep gave a well-rehearsed presentation and answered questions with aplomb, there was much the reps didn't know about the behavior of the final cameras. He did say that virtually all the buttons were customizable, whatever "virtually all" might mean. IIRC he indicated that the ISO button could be reassigned, but it's not clear that it can be reprogrammed to "mode" for those who might want that. Personally I wasn't bothered by the "who moved my cheese" factor versus the D300 because in the interim I got tired of waiting for the D400 (and for that matter of the people categorically declaring that the D7XXX-type was now the top DX model forever and aye -- and that talking about a "D400" was verboten; that includes some Nikon reps), and switched to the Olympus E-M1. So I haven't shot with my D300 bodies for more than a year, long enough to no longer be unthinkingly familiar with the operation. Now that the D500 (and 200-500/5.6) are out, or close enough to it, I have some decisions to make.</p>

<p>There was at least one D5 (with a honking big telephoto mounted) to coon-finger and drool over, but I didn't pay attention to it/them since I'm nowhere close to that market. Nikon handed out some freebies to pre-registered attendees - you could get a baseball cap or polo shirt with "D5/D500" embroidered on it, a Nikon-logo LED flashlight, and I think a logo-ed flash drive or something. They (I believe it was Nikon and not Hunt's) also catered a buffet dinner.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<p>"Camera-launch-as-pop-culture-event" does little for me, unless you are talking about a truly groundbreaking camera. in the case of the d500 and d5, we are talking about incremental improvements. the D500 may have a bit more buzz on it as the long-awaited successor to a 2007 Nikon release, but a buffet dinner is less important to me than buffer size. i just dont see buzz approaching d300/d700/d3 levels, so these new bodies will have to be evaluated on merit. </p>

[ilkka_nissila]

I will take a well thought out iteration which works correctly every time over a buggy/flawed so called "breakthrough" product.

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57249202" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57249202</a></p>

</blockquote>

<p>People's expectation regarding high ISO performance are funny to read - and Nikon surely adds oil to the fire with their upper ISO limits:<br /> <br /> D7100: 6400<br /> D7200: 25600<br /> D500: 51200<br /> D750: 12800<br /> D810: 12800<br /> <br /> So, naively, from these numbers one could assume (and people do) that the D7200 is two stops better than the D7100 and one step better than the D750 (and as good as the D4S (25600). And the D500 would beat the D7100 by three stops and the D750 by two! Those numbers certainly aren't arrived at by applying a common standard. Naturally, at 102400, the D5 beats everything by a very comfortable margin (even the D500 by one stop - as befits the flagship ;-)<br /> <br /> As already said, people's tolerance to noise in images varies, and some are more comfortable applying NR than others. Personally, I have yet to see a DX camera that I would be comfortable pushing to even 3200 and certainly not beyond. I don't know if 6400 is usable on the D750 - it certainly is beyond my comfort level on the D810 (even 3200 is). Sure, I push beyond on occasion - a noisy image is better than no image at all.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Just talked to a friend who went to the event at Semy's Camera in Santa Ana in California (south of Los Angeles) on Friday night. They had 45 attendees and 3 samples each for the D5 and D500. They divided into 3 groups of 15 each and got to spend a lot more time with the cameras.</p>

<p>By chance, last night, I brought my D750 to photograph kids' basketball practice at the local YMCA. Lighting inside the gym was poor. I bought the 300mm/f4 PF and 70-200mm/f2.8 AF-S VR II. At f4, I was forced to ISO 12800 and the shutter speed was still only 1/800 sec in some occasions.</p>

<p>I wouldn't say ISO 12800 on the D750 is great, but it is decent and I am sure that I can make an OK 8x10 print. There is no problem at all viewing on the web. The D5 will only be better.</p><div></div>

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

<p>I attended the event in Grand Rapids, Michigan, last night. A good crowd of around 50 or so with the same three D5's and three D500's as everyone's described. First 25 to arrive got hats (yawn). They had brochures, etc. Coffee, cookies. Sponsored by Norman Camera.<br>

Both cameras, to me, were great. That said, I cannot understand why they didn't put a hinge on the LCD screen on the D5 as they did the D500. The presenter didn't know either. I can only assume it's a durability issue or perhaps that anybody using the D5 for video is probably going to have a remote monitor of somekind.</p>

 

[ShunCheung]

<p>Some of you are fortunate that Nikon reps had 3 samples each for the D5 and D500 at your launch events. We only had 1 each at Keeble and Shuchat in the San Francisco area; however, the Nikon reps are returning to Keeble and Shuchat this coming Sunday, February 21. I'll pay them a visit and hopefully I'll get to play around with the new camera samples for a bit longer.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>I got to see the D5 at a fair in Helsinki today. The AF now works extremely well when a far off center point is selected along the long axis of the frame, and the additional coverage is very welcome. I tested it indoors with the 300 PF on people moving around in the fair and the far off center points seemed to work perfectly, much as the cross type points do on cameras that have Multi-CAM 3500 series AF sensor module. This is very important to me as I do a lot of whole body vertical shots of people and need to place the active AF sensor on the face which is usually at the top of long axis, or quite close to it. I have used the linear points since 2008 since there was nothing else available in this part of the frame, and accepted the increased scatter of the AF results as a current necessity, but I'll be very happy to see this source of focus error disappear with the new cameras. Hopefully Nikon will update the D810 and D750 with the new AF system, or at least some new system with more coverage of cross type points.</p>

<p>Also the facial recognition and tracking works well and the D5 shows the points that are being used in the viewfinder as the tracking is going on, and you can recompose the shots during tracking of the subject movement and it'll hold the subject in focus. This seemed to work amazingly well. The 12fps CH also seemed to produce in-focus shots of moving subjects. Unfortunately the camera had the 300mm f/4 tele mounted and I didn't test the camera with a fast tele prime, which would be very interesting to see. The camera was marked "SAMPLE"and it was forbidden to take one's card and images on it.</p>

<p>One drawback is the 1mm loss of eyepoint to 17mm (same as D8x0). However, the ocular is removable and it may be possible to mount alternative eyepieces onto it in the future; the Nikon professional rep said it was not yet clear what options will be offered. I hope they can come up with a thinner option.</p>

<p>I also tried the D500 and it fit in my hands very well and the ergonomic design seemed excellent. It seemed to be a very well thought out camera. </p>