Lewis Hine: child labor in America...

[deantaylor]

<p>from the University of Maryland archives, the photographic documentation of child labor:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The extensive photographic survey of child labor made by Lewis Hine (1874-1940) during the early twentieth century provided reform groups and the public with visual evidence of the negative impact that work had on children. Hine's photographs helped mobilize society against child labor, while providing an extensive record of working children.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>http://cdm16629.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/landingpage/collection/hinecoll</p>

<p>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hine</p>

<p>and, parenthetically, the 'remedy' for that exploitation of children, Mary Harris Jones:</p>

<p>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Harris_Jones</p>

<p> </p>

[AJHingel]

<p>Good to see that sometimes we get out of the limited perspectives which dominates our exchanges here on Photonet. Photography can indeed be used for other objectives than to nurture our self-attention.</p>

<p>Yes, clearly, the photographs of Lewis Hine on child labor, beginning of last century in the US, are known worldwide, and his photos were on the mind of those who fought for the the 1938 "Fair Labor Standards Act" to be adopted, which prohibited child labor (under 16) in manufacturing and mining, but only concerning inter-state commerce. In 1949, also agriculture, transportation, communication and public utilities were included. And still, child labor is happening in New York city garment industry and Greater Los Angeles with use of child of illegal immigrants in sweatshops.</p>

<p>In Europe 5% of children under 16 in Italy are working and other countries at risk are those that have been badly affected by austerity measures: Cyprus, Greece, Italy and Portugal. Many children reportedly work long hours also in the United Kingdom. (<a href="http://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/-/child-labour-in-europe-a-persisting-challen-1">See here</a>)</p>

<p>Some photographers have been organised to photograph child labor as it happens here and now around the world around the project: <a href="http://www.childlaborphotoproject.org/childlabor.html">"Child Labor and Global Village: Photography for Social Change"</a>.</p>

<p>Thanks Dean for highlighting the fine work of Hine.</p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>Anders, if you check the link you provided, you'll find that there're different interpretations of child labor. Mainly it has to do with labor that is harmful to children or exploitive, the kind of work the Hines probably shot. However, work of the non harmful kind can be important in helping children grow into adults providing them with an understanding of how to be effective and responsible in a work environment, something many kids have no clue. I worked for a pharmacy part time as a 12 year-old on lunch break delivering medical prescriptions. I caddied at 15 at a resort during the summer, and also sold newspapers. My parents were well aware of what I was doing (except possibly when I was 12. I don't think I told them.) </p>

<p>Today as in the past, children help around the farm or on ranches or in their parent's shops learning a trade that they can use later in life as well. In many third-world nations, families would starve if their children did not help out. It would be nice if it was otherwise, but people have to eat.</p>

<p>While no one wants to see a child abused, we sometimes go overboard and categorize things too broadly. Did you ever work as a child? Do you think it harmed you?</p>

<p>Hope you're doing well. We haven't discussed things in a while. </p>

[deantaylor]

<p>the primary impetus for posting this photo archive link is a re-reading of the classic work by Thompson, <em>The Making of the English Working Class</em>...</p>

<p>--specifically, in nineteenth century England, it was determined that young children were the best suited to the unremitting, repetitive chores found in the then-burgeoning industrial age factory, an insight not lost upon their American industrialist counterparts in, e.g., New England mills in the early part of the 20 C.</p>

<p>--how young a child was considered 'preferred' for the tedium of mass production? it was realized by the managerial overseers that six to eleven year old children--i.e., just <em>prior</em> to puberty--were the ideal candidate for ten-hour days in front of the conveyor...the as-yet inchoate mind was more readily controlled, malleable, etc., than that child on the cusp of sexual maturation...<br /> <br /> --to be precise, we are referring to <em>six</em>-day workweeks, eight, ten (or more) hours per day--<em>no</em> school study.</p>

<p>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Harris_Jones#.22Children.27s_Crusade.22</p>

<p> </p>

[AJHingel]

<blockquote>

<p>" Did you ever work as a child? Do you think it harmed you?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No, Alan, I never worked as a child apart from sometimes, late afternoons after school when I was 12/13, arranging rowing boats for rent on a local lake, when I was around 10. Got me a free ice cream.<br /> But, your arguments could have been quotations from the beginning of last century arguing against prohibiting child work. Ask the millions of Indian child workers, whether they think it harms them! Anyway, the serious harm against the welfare of working children throughout the world, still concerns several hundreds of million children (luckily it is falling) and it cannot be dismissed by anecdotes about newspaper delivery boys and small girls in farms opening the hen house.<br /><br /> <br /> Dean, I do agree with you that "The making of the English Working Class", should be read and reread by as many as possible. Mine is worn out.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Anders, I think you are mis-interpreting what Alan is saying, don't forget the "abuse" part of his statement. Alan can correct me if I'm misstating, but I don't think he's talking about 8 to 10 hour days, no school 6 days a week. When I was a kid in California, lots of kids in 6th 7th or 8th grades (11-13 yrs old or so) had "paper routes" 5 days a week after school for about 2 or 3 hours. They had to fold newspapers for their route, stuff them into saddlebags on their bicycle and deliver them to all the customers on their route. I don't think any kid suffered because of that. I delivered furniture on Saturdays for my dad when I was 12 and I think I'm Ok. Most kids had to do yard work on the weekends. One just has to realize the difference between light after school and weekend work as probably being beneficial for kids, and having to try to earn a living wage as a child and the enforced labor that was really child abuse. I would hope one would know the difference. By the way Dean, you have brought in some really nice material to the forum lately and thanks.</p>

[AJHingel]

<p>No, I'm not misinterpreting what Alan is writing I just take it to its extreme. Always a good way of clarifying standpoints.<br /> Yes, I do differ between the various examples you refer to, but the statistics we mentioned above concerns child work, harmful for their development, not only physically but also mentally and educationally. 168 million children (2015) in the world are child laborers mostly in Asia and the Pacific and Sub-Saharan Africa. You find them in agriculture, factories, brick kilns, mines or construction, as well as restaurants in tourist environments.<br /> We all know the difference between "light" work before and after school and "child labor" which is denounced.<br /> Children of illegal immigrants working in sweat shops in our cities, is not light and innocent. It is abuse and should be denounced and stopped, before we share anecdotes of paper boys and children helping out on farms.<br /> Photographers can make the difference inspired by the work of Hine, for example.</p>

[AlanKlein]

Anders, No one is arguing for child labor the way you described it. I agree with you there. In America you go to jail

and pay heavy fines if you use children working in that

way. My point was only to not throw the baby out with

the bath water. Certain kinds of work is healthy and

mentally rewarding for children.

[AJHingel]

<p>Yes Alan I know but your argument has in fact been used for years for not even to throw the bathing water out. And sweat shops do exists in the garment industry in New York and Los Angeles, despite the heavy fines. You can also find them in Europe, as mentioned, and in many, many developing countries. Fines are only relevant if you are caught.</p>

[spanky]

<p>I had a paper route. I lasted exactly one day. Getting up that early and folding the papers and such in cold Bay Area weather; no thanks. I washed cars and mowed lawns for the neighbors, I also did some babysitting and house sitting too. Everyone knows in China and and other parts of the world there is rampant child labor abuse. Does anyone think of this when they buy their new iPhone or Nike athletic shoes? I doubt it. I'm sure there's some in America too although not as common. Then again, what do we make of a family owned business? Many of these rely on children too. If a Chinese American family owns a restaurant and they expect their 13 year old son to wash dishes for 10 hours on Sat and Sun, who's going to know?</p><div></div>

[AlanKlein]

<p>Chinese kids in America helping their parents out in their restaurants doesn't seem to be hurting them. I was eating in a local Chinese restaurant and the owner's two kids were doing their homework at a table by the kitchen. Their mother was waitressing. Before I left, I noticed the kids had switched over to to preparing, cleaning and cutting string beans. Maybe their spirit of hard-work also accounts for their success in school as well.</p>

<p>There's a certain kind of arrogance when one culture thinks another culture should operate and think like it does. I admit as an American that we often do that leading to unfortunate problems like what came out of trying to democratize the Middle East. Maybe we should just mind our business and let others do what they think best for them. I'm sure their parents love their children as much as we do. </p>

[AJHingel]

<p>Alan, you are a very consistent guy. Yes, sure, let's parent's decide what's best for their children. Hip, hip hurrah, the day is saved and everybody are happy.<br>

There are actually very few people who would defend child labor. But you manage to do it with anecdotes about children helping their parents. </p>

<p>Marc, I agree. When some 168 million children are laborers, it is a serious problem and it's abuse and one of the ways to fight it is to denounce it by all means, including photographic it. That's what the project: <a href="http://www.childlaborphotoproject.org/childlabor.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Child Labor and Global Village: Photography for Social Change"</a>, is about.</p>

<p>Let's go back to Hines and other photos like <a href="http://www.1800politics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/child-labor-in-america-by-www.whatisusa.info_.jpg">this one </a>, or<a href="/street-documentary-photography-forum/"> this one</a>, or <a href="http://www.holdthechild.org/_assets/images/blog/world-day-against-child-labor-2015-what-you-need-to-know.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/12575014.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/photogalleries/child-labor/images/primary/girl-bricks-big.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~hicks22a/classweb/Childlabor/WebsiteChildlabor/image-slideshow/images/PAKISTAN_-_child_labour_now.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://www.tunisia-live.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Child-Labor.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://www.borgenmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Child-Labor-Law_opt.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://www.worldvision.org/sites/default/files/styles/press-header-image/public/images/press_releases/child%20labor%20ILAB%20press%20release%20photo%20tweet.JPG?itok=HEsAJC4w">this one</a>, or <a href="https://edfromct.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fabric-workshop-in-gurao-001.jpg">this one</a>, or <a href="http://www.sustainablebrands.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/635x300/article_images/uzbeki-kids-cotton.jpg">this one</a>.</p>

<p>Or why not look into the <a href="http://www.georgemeany.org/archives/child.html">George Meany Memorial Archives on Child Labor </a> and harmful exploitation of children in industry.</p>

[Sandy Vongries]

<p>Anders -- If it takes everyone in a family working to eat and have a place to live, and better their situation, that is somehow wrong? Better they should be clients of a benevolent and all controlling government? And the children never having worked have no idea what life behaviors are effective, fail -- so another generation on the dole?<br /> Don't talk about the schools, education nowadays is a separate bucket of worms.<br /> Ranches, farms, businesses, through the history of the world, families worked together. Children learned skills and helped the family move ahead.<br /> As a very small boy I "worked" in my Grandfather's store -- more trouble than I was worth, but I remember clearly and fondly, and I learned. I had paper routes, mowed lawns, shoveled snow, scraped and painted boat hulls, and all sorts of other tasks, and all were preparation for life. <br /> No one advocates the kind of conditions that existed in the early industrial age, but the invaluable mantra of "For the children..." is doing at least as much harm as good.</p>

[AJHingel]

<p>Sandy, you can rant against your government and the state of education in your country, or whatever, if it makes you feel good, but you cannot make black into white. Children learning skills in families has strictly nothing to do with what is being address when the international community denounces, that we still have 168 million exploited child laborer in the world many working as slaves and that we find child exploitation in factories and services in many developed countries still today. </p>

<p>And now, please, go back to Hines as well as the great work being done by photographers around the world within the project: <a href="http://www.childlaborphotoproject.org/childlabor.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"Child Labor and Global Village: Photography for Social Change"</a>.</p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>Anders: I don't think anyone here is advocating it's OK for children to work in sweat shops. You're looking for an argument that isn't there. </p>

[Uhooru]

<blockquote>

<p>No, I'm not misinterpreting what Alan is writing I just take it to its extreme. Always a good way of clarifying standpoints.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You don't think its a way of distorting standpoints?</p>

[Sandy Vongries]

<p>Anders --nice straw man / avoidance of answering my questions. <br>

Remember, one man's "documentary" is another man's propaganda.<br>

If one can't provide for children, the obvious answer is not to make them.<br>

Cheers!</p>

<p> </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>Remember, one man's "documentary" is another man's propaganda.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sandy, what does this mean in the context of Hine's work? I'm curious if you're applying it to the work of Hine specifically, since Hine is actually what this thread is about or if you're just reciting a platitude that's basically worthless if not applied to some specific documentary or other. If you mean it to apply to Hine's work, I'd appreciate your clarifying for which men you think it's propaganda and why and how his work can be seen as propaganda. I think leaving the statement you made open-ended is kind of suspicious. That's because I think reasonable people can tell the difference and it's really dangerous territory when you start undermining all documentary work by saying it can all legitimately be seen as propaganda. <br>

<br>

Hine's work is among some of the most important, moving, and well done in his field. I've seen an exhibition in NYC of his work within the last 3 years and it made quite an impact. He's a photographer to be respected, studied, and appreciated. He's honest, clear, thoughtful, and probing in his approach to what he does. Not everything is a debate. And his documentary work is not propaganda. I can't say it much more simply than that.</p>

[AJHingel]

<p>Sandy, I did not see any questions of yours. I mostly saw rants.</p>

<p>I agree with Fred. He seems to have the patience to argue with you.</p>

[deantaylor]

<p>Hine retrospective: not solely a revisiting of what some deem a 'discarded' political economy...</p>

<p>one reason why the work of Lewis Hine has relevance for us <em>today</em> (and, the current POTUS campaign rhetoric indicates to even casual observers that the reality of 'class warfare' is not 'ancient history') is that predatory industrialist tactics have not moved offshore, e.g., the CEO of Berkshire-Hathaway, Warren Buffett:<br /> <br /> <em>'there's class warfare, alright, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning...'</em><br /> <br /> understatement: there is room for a latter-day 'Lewis Hine,' i.e., in order to counter the dominant, subliminal narrative...<br /> as photographers--both 'pro' and 'lover' (<em>amateur</em>)--our image captures will establish an alternative to status quo 'handling'...<br>

--that is, we photographers have a role to play in this unfolding drama of the Republic, the 240-year-old 'experiment'...<br /> to wit: Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, et al., would have welcomed and encouraged the work of Hine--(Madison? Hamilton? not so much...).<br>

--for documentary photographers: walk while there is light (he said)...</p>

<p> </p>