ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>When I first learned photography and lighting back in the 70's the two techniques were defined by the Key-to-Fill Ratio. A high Key-to-Fill Ratio is called (naturally) as "High Key Lighting" vs. a low Key-to-Fill Ratio is called (obviously) "Low Key Lighting". This makes sense to me. <br> Over the decades, I don't know when, the 2 terms have switched places. What photographers these days call an overall soft, evenly lit, shadowless shot a "High Key" shot even though to achieve this look, you actually need to keep the Key-to-Fill Ratio low. Vice versa for the "Low Key" shot. This doesn't make sense to me.<br> I remember may be 10, 15 years ago, I saw a forum discussion on this very same subject. The conclusion there was that the terms "High key", "Low Key" no longer refer to the Key-to-Fill Ratio anymore. Instead, they refer to the "mood" generally associated with the lighting effect. A high Key-to-Fill Ratio shot, as in Film Noir, produces that "moody" look; hence "Low Key". Whereas, a low Key-to-Fill Ratio shot produces that "upbeat" look; hence, "High Key".<br> What do you guys think? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>Nothing has changed Ethan, High key and low key are still about key to fill ratios. The only thing that has changed is lack of knowledge with new photographers these days.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>Hi key is however less ratio and a brighter happier picture and Low key is more contrast with a moodier look. I can't tell with your wording if you are the one who has it backwards.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>@Michael, you should read my post again ... seems to me you have missed quite a bit of what I said in the post.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>I did it was to wordy and confusing.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>Ok, so after reading what you wrote 4x I think I get what your saying. High key lighting to YOU means "High key to fill light ratio" Meaning more contrast. But if that is so then you are wrong. High key lighting has always meant and always will mean Low contrast between Key light and fill light producing more even soft light ratio. Low key will always mean higher contrast between the key and fill light producing a harder look and moodier feel</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>The problem with that terminology is that it leaves out a well defined contrast ratio and what that's suppose to look like in a finished image and whether it can be defined as high key or low key. At what point would the photographer know at the time of capture when all they did was meter for overall light back in the film days.</p> <p>You can have a white cat on snow blasted by the sun but the exposure (for mid gray) will stop down to prevent blowouts but without knowing how it will affect contrast. Does a digital sensor record the contrast ratio as linearly as film when reducing exposure photographing such a brightly lit scene so predictable that we can assign a descriptive name to it like high/low key?</p> <p>Post processing quite a few digital Raw's I still haven't found a turn key formula that predicts the character of light captured. With film there are other people who define it and develop a turn key process as long as the photographer exposes for middle gray with the push of a button.</p> <p>It seems back in the olden days of photography, the photographer thought he/she were the expert in arriving at the final look as long as they used the right terminology and knew the lab operator would do the rest.</p> <p>As it is now with digital by comparison it seemed photographers had it pretty easy back then. What's in a word anyway?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 @Michael, I think my writing is not confusing. But I guess it is a matter of opinion. And, I am not confused. I KNOW the definition being used in the past 10 or so years and it is exactly as you say. What I am saying though, if you read my post, is that back 20 years or so ago, the terms were actually defined in the exactly opposite way. BACK THEN, high key was short for high key-to-fill ratio and low key was short for low key-to-fill ratio. This is of course opposite to how they are today but to me the old way makes a whole lot more sense. This is not a serious topic. I am just chatting. No need to get all passionate about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>All good Ethan! Please direct me to information that states what you are saying about the old terms High key to fill ratio meaning what is in today's terms to mean "low key" </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Listen man, are you serious? Are you suggesting that I make this up just so I can have an argument on a Internet forum? Don't know how old you are but I am talking about 20 some years ago. There were no Internet back then. I don't have my text books or recording of the classes when I went to college. So I can't prove it nor would I spend the time to try to search for it. You just have to take my words for it. I understand that things change over time. It's cool. Again, it is not a serious topic, I just find it interesting how it changed. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>I think, Ethan, his point is that not everyone recalls it the way you do. My first job was in a high-end DC-area portrait studio. Senators, ambassadors, various luminaries. Lots, and lots of portrait work using old-school LF, manual retouching ... tools and techniques that hadn't changed in who knows how many decades. This was over 30 years ago. The career photographers working there - and we're talking about people who'd been at it themselves for decades when I showed up to intern - also referred to "high key" as being "bright and <em>low</em> contrast," with "low key" being more noir-like, with deep shadows.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tonai Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>For the past 30 years I've been a commercial photographer and instructor, high key has always been as Matt L. and the others have explained</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>Well then, maybe there were 2 different ways of defining the terms back then and one way eventually won. IDK. I know that was the definition I was taught at school ... but then again, my teachers could have been wrong. But as mentioned, I remember years ago, I read the very same discussion in another forum and the conclusion in the thread was that the definition changed over the years.<br> No biggy, it's a not a serious topic ... I was reading another thread regarding "high-key" lighting and it reminded me of this question I've had for years. That's all.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>Just for the sake of discussion, I do think the definition I learned (be it "right" or "wrong") makes more sense for two reasons:</p> <p>1) We usually use the term "low key" to describe something that is non-dramatic, mellow, inconspicuous. This is exactly the opposite of the dramatic scene "low-key lighting" is producing.</p> <p>2) Isn't it more natural and straight forward to directly refer to the key-to-fill ratio? High-key for high key-to-fill ratio and low-key for low key-to-fill ratio. It seems backward to say that high-key means low key-to-fill ratio and vice versa.</p> <p>The 2 points above were what I was taught at college more than 20 years ago,</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 <p>I think the issue is that most people don't use (and never did, in my experience long before 20 years ago) the terms as shorthand for <em>ratios</em>. They use them as references to the overall tone of the image. In short, bright vs. dark. High key: bright and airy. Low key: dark and ... <em>not</em> airy-feeling. Used in that context, "low key" is a perfect make for "not bright and airy." The term "low key," when referring to behavior, is generally understood to mean "subdued," or "low visibility" ... as in, avoiding notice ("The fugitive spent his nights traveling across the state in as low-key a way as possible," etc). </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I agree with Matt. In a photographic context, "high key" and "low key" have always referred to the overall tone of the image. The usefulness of language derives from general agreement about what words mean. If you choose to use low and high to refer to lighting ratios, you're simply going to confuse people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Here's a fairly-thorough discussion: http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/10232/what-does-it-mean-for-a-photograph-to-be-high-key Note that in the history section of that article, there are quotations from articles as far back as the 19th century about "high key." The idea that high key refers to the overall tone of an image predates the popularity of photography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethan_haun Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>@Mike Dixon. Very interesting discussion you linked to. Reading through it. Thank you for sharing.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton2 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>Without getting into any of this argument, I can only tell you that when I was working in a portrait studio 50 years ago high key meant predominantly light, low key predominately dark. I had never heard the theory of fill vs key until three minutes ago.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBen Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>Matt Laur has given us the key (no pun intended) to understanding the misunderstanding in this discussion). It is <strong>not</strong> about ratios: "I think the issue is that most people don't use (and never did, in my experience long before 20 years ago) the terms as shorthand for <em>ratios</em>. They use them as references to the overall tone of the image."<strong><br /></strong><br> <strong>Twenty-five years ago</strong>, in <em>Light--Science and Magic</em> (Fil Hunter and Paul Fuqua), there is a section called "mood and key." There is <strong>NO</strong> mention whatsoever of a ratio. Hunter and Fuqua say that photographers, in fact, talk about the overall "key or brightness" of a shot. They then define "low-key" and "high-key" lighting:<br> <br />"Large, prominent areas of dark are characteristic of <strong>low-key</strong> lighting. Pictures made with this kind of lighting tend to be somber...serious, formal, and dignified in mood. Low-key lighting requires more side and back lighting.</p> <p>"<strong>High-key</strong> lighting is the reverse.... Pictures made with high-key lighting are light and bright. They convey a youthful, open, and happy mood. They have many white and light gray tones in them.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_bill Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>I agree with Benoit and Light-Science, my understanding of the two "keys" goes beyond mere ration of main to fill ratio, it is the overall mood or feel of the image. What would a high contrast subject be on a low contrast background? Or vice versa. It is the overall feel of the image the keys describe. Because someone mistakenly called it something else doesn't change it... unless you are a politician or reporter then the more you say it, the truer it becomes. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>High key and low key is all about light ratio between main and fill. You can't have a low key without a certain level of ratio. High key can be done with one light or two with a very minimum ratio is any at all. <br> In the early days TV and film had difficulty with ratio lighting (low key) and they moved towards high key lighting which made lighting a set much faster and easier. today most all tv shows are shot high key. The movies have a mix of high and low key scenes. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Michael: As shown in the links above, artists and people describing images have been referring to the key of the image since long before anyone was referring to key and fill lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 <p>Matt, I totally agree and understand your point. I am just keeping to the discussion of Ethan who refers to Key light and fill ratio and where he talks about the terms of high and low key somehow switching meaning over the years. This last point he made I am still confused about what he is talking about.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 <p><em>high key meant predominantly light, low key predominately dark</em><br> Totally agree. The key light to fill light ratio governs contrast. Always has, always will.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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