pensacolaphoto Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>Let me know what else to add for Mr. Schopf.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph. Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Discussions on fair distribution of costs, responsibility and spesific time limits seems to be called for.: IF through specs, literature study+deduction and their lab tests, Leitz could and should have known that the spots would have developed, then they should replace or repair free of cost throughout a reasonable lifetime for the product. But what is a reasonable product life 10years? 50 years? Digital devices of all kinds are after all usually consigned to the wastebin after a few years. So if a maker has taken all precautions, some of the burden, after some years have passed, should perhaps fall on buyers aquiring a new, untried product, even if it comes from a reputable vendor. The question then becomes: more buyer responsibility for covering costs after 3years? 5 years? 30%? 50%.of costs? Look at more ancient troubles: a Leicaflex SL may have a slight beginning yellow cast to the viewfinder due to the prism coatings used and its meter may be sluggish, but customers will probably agree that it is not fair to ask Leica\ Leitz to take care of that for free. A CL may have very slow slow speeds, and like any ancient shutter will need maintenance, but free repairs?. I recently had my 35-70\4 -R suddenly stick. Solms repaired it and I paid and was happy that it was fixed. No idea whether the cause was an unlikely coincidence or if the internal cams had worn too fast due to the turn of the century engineers being too optimistic. I did appreciate that there still is a service that can keep R-optics alive- even if one has to pay. What one should demand, however, is total repairability of all products that they have made in-house. DMR parts and out of production ICs excepted ( but much can be designed anew. After all, vintage and classic cars still have modern pieces put in. ) Canon and Nikon make excuses "not feasible to keep spares after 10years". Aspiring to be world leading, Leitz\Leica should be able to make bespoke pieces to repair anything they make. and keep the skilled workforce to do so. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_neuthaler Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>"Habe einem fahlert gemacht," as they say.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>1. Leica should invest more in the post sales service instead of opening so many boutiques worldwide ! <br /><br />2. Consider replacing the IR cover glass that is over the sensor with another type of cover (BG-18) that is less sensitive to humidity.<br /><br />3. Be more consistent in deciding whether to charge or not charge for sensor issues repairs.<br /><br /><br />4. Stop the bargaining at the repair counter by giving a 5 years warranty on cameras as with lenses<br> <br> 5. Discussions on fair distribution of costs, responsibility and spesific time limits seems to be called for.<br> 6. IF through specs, literature study+deduction and their lab tests, Leitz could and should have known that the spots would have developed, then they should replace or repair free of cost throughout a reasonable lifetime for the product. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>"Habe einem Fahler gemacht," is also known as "Ich habe Mist gebaut"!<br> In German, MIST should not be confused with MISSED. They mean different things. :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_may Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>Raid Amin, I will not get an upgrade because my sensor does not show the defect yet. I will have to wait until the defect shows up. I would prefer to upgrade before the defect shows, which it probably will, because then I will lose images and time. I am not happy with the Leica position on this. There is a known defect in the glass, and in time all sensors will show the defect.<br> For anyone who has the defect showing, they can request a price for upgrade to M Type 240. The news release said the price will be based on the condition of the camera with the defect.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>I have this list so far:</p> <p>1. Leica should invest more in the post sales service instead of opening so many boutiques worldwide ! <br /><br />2. Consider replacing the IR cover glass that is over the sensor with another type of cover (BG-18) that is less sensitive to humidity.<br /><br />3. Be more consistent in deciding whether to charge or not charge for sensor issues repairs.<br /><br /><br />4. Stop the bargaining at the repair counter by giving a 5 years warranty on cameras as with lenses<br /><br />5. Don't ever stop making CCD based Digital cameras.<br> <br> 6. Make the upgrade from the M9 immediate, even if the sensor is working.<br> <br> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 <p>DJ May: I hear you. I have added your point as Point #6 on my list.<br> I wonder how much we would have to pay to upgrade.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>To 1: that's going to get the discussion off to a good start - not!<br> To 2: fair to assume that Leica engineers are by now aware of this and investigating that angle<br> To 3: from what I've read, currently all replacements are free of charge - and those who have been charged will get reimbursed.<br> To 4: good one - but would leave those with the oldest M9 bodies no longer covered.<br> To 5: I don't think that's really an option - and haven't Leica fanboys already done enough damage to the company by insisting on old technology for far too long? Comparing the M rangefinder to the Fuji X100T hybrid finder leaves little doubt for me which one is the better option.<br> To 6: good luck on that one - why should Leica do that? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>Dieter,<br> I have simply summarized what some people has suggested online. I understand your points.</p> <p>Raid</p> <p>1. Leica should invest more in the post sales service instead of opening so many boutiques worldwide ! <br /><br />2. Consider replacing the IR cover glass that is over the sensor with another type of cover (BG-18) that is less sensitive to humidity.Do this only for defective sensors,<br /><br />3. Be more consistent in deciding whether to charge or not charge for sensor issues repairs.<br /><br /><br />4. Stop the bargaining at the repair counter by giving a 5 years warranty on cameras as with lenses<br /><br />5. Don't ever stop making CCD based Digital cameras.<br /><br />6. Make the upgrade from the M9 immediate, even if the sensor is working. [if possible?]<br /><br />7. Leica has a special relationship with a niche market segment that is historically invested in old and new M mount lenses and has followed the company through and contributed to its transition to the digital age. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the users in this niche segment cannot afford products priced at the luxury-niche level. And many who do make the stretch are doing so with the idea of being able to use the camera for a longer period of time. This part of the market deserves a no-frills, reliable, moderately priced option that offers full M mount compatibility, full frame, at a premium over other non-RF products, but still at a price affordable for this loyal base. __________________</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_stobbs3 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Maybe the boutiques will earn the money to pay for sensor replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Dieter, I was told by Leica customer service that I will not get reimbursed the $500 that I paid as labor cost to Leica NJ to replace the M9 sensor and board. I was never informed what the defect cause was. Was the sensor defective first or was it the board? Shouldn't a defective sensor be replaced free of charge? Leica left this issue up in the air by not explaining why my M9 had a faulty sensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip_wilson Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>Raid - I think number 7 is the real point here. Leica has built it's business and reputation on the quality and longevity of their products. Nowadays of course they also offer the unique Rangefinder shooting experience - although their reputation was built when other Rangefinders were available.<br> The challenge for Leica is that digital products have a shorter timeframe as they become obsolete. Unfortunately many of the buyers are hoping that the Leica product does not become obsolete. The sensor issue puts Leica in a difficult position as it wants to repair the fault but does not want to pay for people to solve their digital obsolescence problem at Leica's expense. It seems that a lot of people complaining on the websites are trying to get a subsidized upgrade. I actually believe that Leica is making a very attractive offer - consumer electronics companies generally are pretty bad at supporting 5 year old products. Software companies often just stop supporting them!.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>I will chat with the CEO, and I will listen to what he has to say. This list gives me an idea of what many Leica users seem to expect from Leica, There may exist a mismatch of goals with expectations. I will email him the "list" before we chat so that he knows what some of the main concerns are (for many users).</p> <p>1. Leica should invest more in the post sales service instead of opening so many boutiques worldwide ! Another view is: I think the Leica boutique stores are an invaluable addition to the Leica culture. They support local Leica artists by giving them a space to showcase their work, they hold workshops, and last but not least you can walk in with or without your own camera and try any of the current products without any pressure to buy.<br /><br />2. Consider replacing the IR cover glass that is over the sensor with another type of cover (BG-18) that is less sensitive to humidity.Do this only for defective sensors,<br /><br />3. Be more consistent in deciding whether to charge or not charge for sensor issues repairs.<br /><br /><br />4. Stop the bargaining at the repair counter by giving a 5 years warranty on cameras as with lenses<br /><br />5. Don't ever stop making CCD based Digital cameras. This is a wish that may be difficult to satisfy.<br /><br />6. Make the upgrade from the M9 immediate, even if the sensor is working. Others suggest to replace only defective sensors.<br /><br />7. Leica has a special relationship with a niche market segment that is historically invested in old and new M mount lenses and has followed the company through and contributed to its transition to the digital age. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the users in this niche segment cannot afford products priced at the luxury-niche level. And many who do make the stretch are doing so with the idea of being able to use the camera for a longer period of time. This part of the market deserves a no-frills, reliable, moderately priced option that offers full M mount compatibility, full frame, at a premium over other non-RF products, but still at a price affordable for this loyal base.<br /><br />8. Leica's only chance for survival is to market to luxury/upscale demographics. Leica's brand must resonate with these demographics. Quality and excellence are crucial to maintain and enhance the brand image. <br /><br /><br />9. Leica is looking for new buyers, who will buy a body and four new lenses, and put 20k on their credit card in one day. But at the same time they want to keep referring to the history, and those collector/users, who were there long before the digital system was sold.</p> <p>10. The challenge for Leica is that digital products have a shorter time frame as they become obsolete. . Unfortunately many of the buyers are hoping that the Leica product does not become obsolete. The sensor issue puts Leica in a difficult position as it wants to repair the fault but does not want to pay for people to solve their digital obsolescence problem at Leica's expense.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>Add to the list above these two new points from someone in Europe:<br /><br />11. In some countries while there are Leica dealers. no service is available, so users need to mail their Leica cameras to Germany and then wait 4-6 weeks until the camera is returned. It would be helpful if Leica offers camera rentals for the waiting time.<br /><br />12. Customer service for email inquiries should be improved.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_may Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 <p>Leica could consider, if they already have not, an upgradable camera. With the durable camera body, it would be reasonable that the electronics package and sensor could be replaced. If Leica thinks that people will replace cameras rather than upgrade, then they would not do it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Williams Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Leica could consider, if they already have not, an upgradable camera. With the durable camera body, it would be reasonable that the electronics package and sensor could be replaced. If Leica thinks that people will replace cameras rather than upgrade, then they would not do it.</p> </blockquote> <p>The last Leica CEO to suggest this was promptly fired. To the user, it would make a lot of sense not to have an expensive optical rangefinder (housed in a body that's still engineered to last a lifetime) permanently wedded to a sensor package that will be obsolete in five years. To Leica, not so much. Far better, and more profitable, to sell you the complete package again next time.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 It is worthwhile mentioning this idea to Leica. There is not much to lose hee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 <p>Point 7 is the crux IMO too. And from the user point, an upgradeable camera would definitely be a plus. And I agree that Leica can't afford it! Technically, the rangefinder concept is outdated - but Leica apparently can't afford to move away from it for fear to lose the last its fans.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 <p>I will discuss the possibility of improving customer service, and I will suggest that Leica keeps the users informed of any developments in solving the sensor problems for the long term. These seem to be the two main issues that many Leica users are concerned about.</p> <p>Dieter: I don't know what Leica could do about this point, but it is a valid point.</p> <p>7. Leica has a special relationship with a niche market segment that is historically invested in old and new M mount lenses and has followed the company through and contributed to its transition to the digital age. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the users in this niche segment cannot afford products priced at the luxury-niche level. And many who do make the stretch are doing so with the idea of being able to use the camera for a longer period of time. This part of the market deserves a no-frills, reliable, moderately priced option that offers full M mount compatibility, full frame, at a premium over other non-RF products, but still at a price affordable for this loyal base. __________________</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 <p>I had my chat with the Leica CEO this morning:</p> <p>http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00d372</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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