Need help with pricing and rights for a rodeo?

[steven_pink]

<p>I've been contacted to shoot a Wounded Warrior Project Rodeo that's about 100 miles away. The offer was the folks in charge would pay my fuel, food, and a place to stay if I gave them a CD of images to use for promotional purposes and in exchange they will make me the exclusive "Event Photographer". Considering it's a Wounded Warrior Project benefit, I'm willing to give a CD for promotional purposes as long as they will pay my costs of being there, but I want a little more info on writing a usage agreement when giving a CD to an organization... I was also told that they wanted me to sell CDs instead of prints because the past event photographers have done so. So how do I price my CDs fairly and write a license agreement that only allows for private/personal use and printing? (IE: can't give copies of the CD to all their friends)</p>

<p>Due to being the sole "Event Photographer", I want to be fair on pricing and not be 'that guy' (with the monopoly on an event's photo services) who sells $100 photo CDs with very limited rights. I was thinking around the $20 mark would be EXTREMELY fair. Considering the event has 750+ competitors, I'm looking at easily selling over 100 CDs (The most I've ever made off of an event is $500 so this looks like a very promising opportunity). </p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

Have you done any research on the Wounded Warrior Project?

 

One of the things you might find is this: http://bikersofamerica.blogspot.com/2013/11/donating-to-wounded-warriors-read-

this.html

 

Or this:

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2465134

 

Or this:

 

http://www.military-money-matters.com/wounded-warrior-project-info.html#axzz3ETV3p1yD

 

While the Internet can be a vast echo chamber, it is never a bad idea to do as much homework as possible on organizations that ask you to donate your time, services and use of your personal equipment, none of which is deductible from your taxes since you are donating work that you create.

[steven_pink]

I'm not so concerned about the principals of the charity the event is raising funds for... I'm not 100% in agreement with

WWPs actions, but this is the biggest event I've ever been booked for with a lot of potential to make me some money. The

photos I take would solely be used to promote next year's WWP benefit rodeo (which is NOT put on by WWP).

[rick_m.]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm not so concerned about the principals of the charity the event is raising funds for...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ouch. You ought to be. Very sad if you aren't.</p>

<p>By the way. Do you intend to work in the arena? If so, have you ever done that before? Now listen to me before you climb in there. It is very dangerous there. You are young and indestructible, right? Don't say "I'll be careful." If you have never worked in a rodeo arena you don't know how to be careful. I have shot rodeos for a very long time now. I have been hurt and I have seen photographers hurt very badly. I have also seen photographers cause injury to others trying to help them. I know you will not heed my warnings and the organizers are out of their minds if they let you in the arena. Having said that...</p>

<p>1. You can get hurt very badly during events you think are safe. It is not the bulls you need to fear most (though they are bad enough). Think about this. When that calf wrestler gets off his horse going about 30 miles an hour that horse is headed toward you and has no driver. Don't forget that. If you start trying to dodge around him he will hit you harder than a Harley at 30. Do not climb into the arena until you have found an experienced arena man and learned.</p>

<p>2. Learn not only how to climb the fencing but when. Sooner rather than later. Practice doing it with your camera.</p>

<p>3. Here is an event you might think is safe. Team roping. How can you get hurt shooting that. Don't get into the arena until you know the answer.</p>

<p>4. Cowboys do not like CDs. They like photos. That is what every rodeo photographer with whom I have ever worked sells at the rodeo. Printed 8 X 10 or 5X7. They might pay $20.00 for a shot. Some might want a digital. You might need to offer both. <br>

5. You need an assistant to do the printing and sales while you are shooting. Once the rodeo starts you will be busy. You will have absolutely no time to even look at your shots not to mention work them up and put them on disks in any great number. The cowboy will come to your 'store' while you are shooting another event. He will want to see the shot and will pay on the spot. VERY few will go to a website and order later. You need a printer, backup printer, computer with a good screen, shelter so they can see the screen in the shade. You need a runner to take your cards to the salesperson so you can keep shooting. There are no breaks in a rodeo. None.</p>

<p>6. Do you know what "slack" means? Do you have the schedule? Do you know and understand all of the events? Can you anticipate the action?</p>

<p>Son, unless you have been raised in rodeo you have no business shooting this event. You will anyway and you may get away without being hurt. You need to seriously plan this and you need help to do it. Your posts in the equipment thread show that you are confident beyond your years and experience. Most of the time you can get away with it. Rodeos, not so much. It takes years of apprenticeship to become a PCRA photographer. There is a reason for that. I shot rodeos for years before I was allowed in the arena and I was raised in Arizona and grew up around stock. I am still very careful in the arena and do not take anything for granted. Especially my own experience. Please find an experienced rodeo photographer and learn. Or this might just be your last rodeo.</p>

<p>Finally. Cowboys are grownups. You are going into their world. This is NOT their first rodeo as the saying goes. Rodeo cowboys are respectful and mostly soft spoken. If you try to act like you are "all that" word will spread and you won't sell anything. They will also know within a few seconds whether you know what you are doing. Remember that. <br /> I am assuming that you do not know all there is to know about rodeos. If you have been raised in the saddle then you will not be offended by what I said because you will know that it was meant to save your bacon. You will have seen a whole lot of your friends badly hurt and been hurt yourself.</p>

<p>Here is the only tip I will give you. If you don't completely understand each and every event then you have to spend the next few days on the internet watching rodeo events. All of them. You need to know what the scoring means and what gets a cowboy a good score. You need to know what good is. Why? I can tell an inexperienced rodeo photographer because he/she shoots the wrecks like crazy. But understand this. Pay attention. If you were a baseball player would you pay for a shot of you striking out? Think about that. Those shots are news shots, and sometimes (rarely) publicity shots. They are not money shots. You have to catch a cowboy looking good or he won't likely buy the photo. So there is your advice. Do with it what you will.</p>

<p>6.</p>

[rick_m.]

<p>Watch this:</p>

<p>

[steven_pink]

I hate to charge too much to the event organizers considering they're paying me enough to cover my hotel room, gas,

food, etc. (which I'd normally have to pay myself) I've shot a lot of rodeos. I grew up around rodeos and it's not new to me.

I know prints are preferred at rodeos, but the event organizers are specifically asking for CDs. I would prefer selling prints

because I typically make more on them. My biggest concern and reason for posting is, I've never sold CDs at a rodeo

(only for portrait sessions).

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>"I hate to charge too much to the event organizers considering they're paying me enough to cover my hotel room, gas, food, etc. (which I'd normally have to pay myself)"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's just expenses and should have nothing to do with the fee for the work portion itself. You're not going there for mere jollies, you are obligated to perform for a client. Negating the "would have to pay for this stuff' issue entirely. You would have to include that in your price if the rodeo were not paying for the itemized expenses.</p>

[steven_pink]

<p>I've never been paid to shoot a rodeo by the rodeo's organizers. I've always gone and covered all expenses myself while selling prints to competitors. I know the organizers are obligated to cover these fees since I'm giving them a CD at the end of it all, but I'm also taking into consideration that they're supplying me with a booth and doing free advertising for me. I'm considering charging them expenses + $300 for the CD for promotional use. Does that seem like I'm shorting myself?</p>

[rick_m.]

<p>Steven. Look. I don't mean to get up your nose but some of us are paying attention. </p>

<p>You have had a dslr for a year. Before that a mirrorless. How many rodeos have you done? You are a high school senior. You are not old enough to have shot "a lot of rodeos". Seriously. I have been doing them since before you were born. I have worked alongside PRCA photographers including the late Louise Serpa. I covered a rodeo on labor day. Teenage photographers are not ever allowed to shoot rodeos and sell the prints to the competitors. If you have shot "a lot of rodeos" before you were 18 (and you would have had to) then you have shot them from outside of the arena. That or you have worked for some not to swift folks who would employ a minor in a hazardous job. </p>

<p>To even be considered for a position as a PRCA credentialed photographer you will need about 10 more years of experience. You will have to submit a portfolio including 2 night professional rodeos and illustrating that you are among the best of the best. In other words son.....You are asking very experienced people to give you the benefit of their experience. These fine folks don't mind doing that. You can learn here. Just please give us the respect that we give you. We are glad you are just starting out and hope you succeed. Play straight with us though. OK?</p>

[steven_pink]

I've shot about 20 rodeos. I live in the Midwest and that's pretty much life around here. I understand that may not be a

WHOLE lot of experience, but I've always been able to produce reasonable results. You're correct in the fact that I've shot

most of those from outside the ring due to not age and most recent events I've been to have had a professional

photographer in the ring and didn't want anyone else (which is completely understandable with the nature of the event).

Sorry I didn't make that clear.