7D or 6D for low light dog agility

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>Hello all..<br /><br />I had a quick question about deciding on what camera I should buy. I currently have a rebel t3i and I am looking to upgrade.. I want to reduce noise, but also capture much sharper shots. The only reason I bring up a 7D is not because the FPS but more so the more cross-type focus points (19 vs 11)... is that something I need to worry about? I really don't understand what that means.. <br /><br />I am going to be capturing dogs with SPEED... but in the controlled setting sessions... they won't be going terribly fast.<br /><br />I think my best option is to go with the 6D, but another few opinions are always welcomed! Thank you all in advanced.<br /><br />Here is a shot from my rebel t3i... it's edited for a bit more sharpness which makes the photo look a little off.. and the noise isn't terrible... but I just can't bump my ISO any higher without terrible noise. http://imgur.com/BHPtbQ1<br /><br /><img src="/bboard//i.imgur.com/BHPtbQ1.jpg" alt="" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></p><div></div>

[bfmelton]

<p>One way to approach this problem would be to ask yourself where you're feeling the greatest limitation with your t3i. If you feel like your frame rate is too slow of you're missing focus too much, go with the 7D. But if (as seems to me to be the case) your biggest concern is noise, then go with the 6D. The 7D has a focusing system that is a lot better and faster at nailing a moving target than the 6D--but is you haven't noticed a problem in that department, and the noise actually is worrying you, I'd probably suggest the 6D.</p>

 

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Good photo. I know how tough that is - I've tried photographing my friend's border collie in backyard training for agility. With photos other than horizontal panning I was lucky to get half the photos in focus when shooting wide open. Even in daytime her backyard was dark due to heavy tree cover.</p>

<p>Regardless of camera, you may be worrying too much about noise. Most folks won't notice - that's something only photographers worry about, unless we're talking popcorn sized blotches of chroma noise. Also, using too much luminance noise reduction makes fur look matted. My old Nikon D2H is horrendously noisy above ISO 800 but my friends don't even notice in the photos I snap for them of their pets romping.</p>

<p>I dislike chroma noise so I use chroma NR generously. But I'd rather see a bit of neutral luminance noise than indistinct fur or hair - to most folks if they notice at all luminance noise resembles film grain. And that slight texture from luminance noise doesn't even show in my 8x10 prints. (And, again, only photographers argue over whether digital luminance noise resembles film grain. I've never heard anyone else mention it, or even notice it).</p>

<p>If you really, really dislike any appearance of luminance noise in the out of focus backgrounds, you can layer two versions of the image - one with less NR to preserve details in the fur, the other with more NR to reduce background texture - and blend the two. But it probably won't show in print anyway.</p>

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>I recently spent several hours shooting agility, actually testing a lens I bought, with both a 7D and a 6D. <em><strong>Much</strong> </em>higher success rate with the 7D than the 6D. I was shooting outdoors so noise wasn't an issue but next time I won't even bother with the 6D.<br>

Having said that, I love the 6D for landscapes, low light urban shots, portraits, but action...not so much.<br>

JD</p>

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>Thank you both for the responses.. It sounds like a 7D would be greater for the speed.. <br /><br />The place where the photo was taken is going to be where 75% of photo sessions will now be taken. I really was looking for a sharper photo overall... I'll take sharper photos over noise. You guys are great.. thanks again.</p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>I have both cameras. The 6D will give you better low light with low noise.</p>

<p>The 7D has more focal points (total of 19), it also has focal point zones, focal point expansion.</p>

<p>The 6D has 11 selectable focal points that can be used individually or all together which will lock onto the first closest thing it can. No focal point zones or focal point expansion on the 6D. While the 6D gives better low light noise shots, I sure wish it had the focal point zones and expansion like the 7D. Of course if it did, there would be less reason to buy a 5D MK III.</p>

<p>If you want both great low light noise and focal point zones and focal point expansion then go with the 5D MK III.</p>

<p>I did run across a thread on another site that suggested that the 6D had more focal points , possibly 19 but was crippled by Canon. I don't know, it was interesting reading and makes me wonder if it is true, will a third party firmware like Magic Lantern perhaps one day find a way to re-enable these. Wishful thinking perhaps. Here is the link to that other thread. <a href="http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1156576">LINK </a></p>

<p>I got off on a tangent.</p>

<p>The 6D is a great camera and the lack of focal point zones was not a deal breaker for me, but having used them on the 7D, I miss it on the 6D and will look forward to using it on the 5D MK III after I save up some more jingles, who knows the 5D MK IV might be out by then.</p>

<p>I will say the greatly improved low noise at higher ISO on the 6D is very welcome and much better than the 7D.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p> </p>

[philip_wilson]

First I have to confess that I don't have a 6d and have never shot it. That said I do have a 5dII and a 7D and have used both quite a bit.

While I find the 5DII is a better camera if I am shooting dogs playing I would use the 7D (or a 1 series). In general I find dogs playing is a

difficult subject as their movement is rapid and hard to predict and you are often shooting from close range and need accurate focus on

the eyes. For me the 7d AF is clearly superior to the 5DII for this purpose and the 7d is fine up to ISO 1600 and can be used at 3200. I

understand the 6d AF is very similar in performance to the 5dII - hence the reason for my comparison.

 

It also helps a lot is a fast (e.g. f2.8 or better L series or similar) lens is used on the body. In terms of noise performance the 5DII is

around two stops better than the 7D and I assume the 6d is even better. The other thing to be aware of at high ISO is that the raw image

from a 7D is a lot more sensitive to exposure errors than the 5DII ( that is if you miss the exposure the noise problems are much more

severe on the 7D)

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>Still unsure after reading what to get.. If I get a 6d, I could have a higher ISO and couldnt I just raise my shutter speed? Or ... if I get a 7D.. I save $$, the crop sensor is still there, so it won't affect the length I have now, and if it's ISO is ok at 1600, that's all I really need.. I will show you a few more shots of a little more speed, and you guys can tell me what's lacking as far as ISO needed (6D) or Speed)<br /><br />Again, the place I am taking photos will never need changed as far as settings go. I got a gig for a training facility, so the settings will rarely change.. and this is my biggest concern as it has potential for a lot of revenue.<br /><br /></p><div></div>

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>another shot</p><div></div>

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>this is a great example of my struggle... black dogs, higher iso.. </p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>Ashley, looking at the second to last image I see</p>

<table id="basic" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4">

<tbody>

<tr valign="baseline">

<td>Lens:</td>

<td>Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM (shot wide open)</td>

</tr>

<tr valign="baseline">

<td>Exposure:</td>

<td>Auto exposure, Shutter priority AE, ¹<big>/</big>512 sec, f/1.8, ISO 1600, Compensation: +2/3</td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<p>Flash did not fire. So no flash.</p>

<p>I have a couple questions, are you shooting RAW or JPEG? What software are you using in post production?</p>

<p>F/1.8 is going to give you a shallow depth of field. That is why the dogs eyes are sharp put the body is already soft. You may find stopping down a bit could give a bit sharper image of the dog overall. I do not own that particular lens but I looked at a review of the lens and it sounds like it is a sharp lens. You might find getting a sharper overall of the dog at around f/3.5 or f/4 and still get the back ground soft. At least start at f/2.8 and see how you like the results and try f/3.5 and f/4.</p>

<p>Of course every stop will reduce your light by half. You were already at ISO 1600. Can you use flash at these shows? Perhaps using a little bounce flash might help indoors and not produce harsh shadows. External Flash like a Canon Speedlight 580 EX II using Hi Speed Sync pointed at ceiling. You could try dropping shutter speed a tad as long as you are still fast enough to stop motion, I wouldn't go below 1/320 sec. Hopefully the dogs aren't moving that fast.</p>

<p>Shooting RAW and using software like Lightroom can easily allow you to bring detail out of the shadows and reduce luminance noise, but taking care to not over do it.</p>

<p>Maybe you won't need a new camera. :-) If you do, I would lean toward the 6D over the 7D.</p>

<p> </p>

[Robin Smith]

<p>The 6D is a great camera, but I agree with the others, a 7D would seem a better plan if fast moving AF is your issue. I use the 6D with kids' basketball and it works fine, but dogs are faster and quicker and I think it would struggle. I also agree that AF central point expansion is a feature that is worth having for this kind of thing and the 5DII had that, but the 6D does not. I haven't really shot running dogs so I can't assess whether the 6D would be better overall than the 7D.</p>

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>I am shooting in raw, and yes that's my problem, If I go any higher of a F stop, things start to get really dark. Too much darkness needs more ISO and I can't go any lower than that speed or I get a blur. I feel so confused haha. I really feel the 6D would help with ISO in turn I can get a higher shutter speed.. which is what I need. The dogs aren't going to be running terribly fast as we will go obstacle by obstacle. Flash is iffy because some dogs may get spooked, and then you have a dog that hates agility, and I could get blamed :)</p>

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>Ashley, any chance that you could borrow/rent the 7D or 6D and try it/them out? I'm still sure that you'd be better off with a 7D for agility, but you may have noticed that at least a few of us have both.<br>

By the way, didn't notice your last name originally. Where are your people from? My family is all over the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, although I'm in California. We're famous for moonshine and the Dickerson Ketch, but I'm not close enough to anybody back there to get any sippin' whiskey, or a free boat!<br>

JD</p>

[ashley_dickerson]

<p>Hah Joseph! I'm from Texas, yeehaw. My dad is from Germany and moved to MO, then Texas. Guys, I ended up buying a Canon 70d. I have a great photo mom and pop shop who take time to sell what's right for each individual. His opinion was to go with the 70D. He told me if I don't feel happy with the results, I can go ahead and bring it back to switch it for a 7d. I love this camera so far.. won't be back to work till tomorrow to try it out, but I am super excited to see what this bad boy can do.. it's SO fast : )</p>

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>Great choice, not sure why not one of us thought to mention it. <br>

My dad had a cousin Dave in Texas, but that's all I remember about him. My people came to Virginia in the 1640s from England, which means we were probably criminals and got transported, common punishment back then.<br>

Lets us know how the 70D works out for you. Ann and I recently "adopted" a miniature Aussie and will probably try agility at some point. Still got to do the basic puppy stuff with him yet but it didn't take us long to figure out we had gotten a dob that's smarter than us.<br>

JD</p>

[philip_wilson]

Ashley. Raising the ISO has no impact on shutter speed. raising the ISO to use a smaller aperture will help as it gives the AF more room

for error. For example if you are ISO 400 and f2.8 you could go to ISO 800 and F4. This will give you a bigger depth of field (in focus

distance) which gives the AF a better chance. In general for difficult moving subjects you have two options. You can pre-focus on a

known point (e.g. One of the poles) and wait until the dog gets there (this is a technique I used a lot before AF arrived). The other option

is to give the AF the best chance possible - to do this select Center plus expansion points and track the dog for as long as possible. A

fast USM lens will also help a lot in this situation and the AF should be set to AI Servo. The ISO has no impact on AF performance but

the settings, AF point, lens and light levels do. Just looking quickly at your images which seem to be taken in reasonable lit arenas you

challenge is more likely to be AF than ISO. I suggest that you read the Cannon technical notes on how to get the best from your AF and

try this before you buy a new body.

[Mark Keefer]

<p>I have to clarify, ISO does have an effect on shutter speed in regards to results on the image, it does not change the speed of course. Moving ISO higher just gives you the ability to use a faster shutter speed. By raising the ISO, it makes the sensor more sensitive to light, so you can get a brighter photo using a fast shutter speed.</p>

<p>The 7D is a noisy camera and pushing it to ISO 1600 isn't going to give much advantage to what Ashely is using now. I still have my 40D and it is about the same as the 7D. The 6D will allow pushing ISO beyond the usable ISO of the 7D. It will have little problem catching dogs running a little indoor course, IMO.</p>

<p>If we were talking birds in flight, fast moving ducks moving out at 80mph, the 7D will have an advantage on auto focus. But I have caught birds in flight with my 6D also. The 7D is just a noisier camera.<br /> I'll get some sample shots between the cameras at ISO 1600 and ISO 2500 and post.</p>

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>Mark,<br>

I don't think ducks approach anything like 80mph. Peregrines, yes, ducks, don't think so.<br>

However, for agility trials, especially indoor, there are several issues. The dogs are motoring, she'll want to fill the frame, or nearly so, in most cases she'll have to use servo auto focus so the 70D is a very good choice. The 6D doesn't have as sophisticated an auto focus system as either the 7D or 70D, so it's really not the best choice in this situation.<br>

I do agree with you that the high ISO performance is spectacular, but the auto focus...not so much.<br>

JD</p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>I just finished my first test comparing the 7D and 6D at both 1600 ISO and 2500 ISO under identical conditions using the exact same prime lens, the SIGMA 50mm f/1.4 @ f/4 1/500 sec. I cropped all four shots to the same area and displayed at 100% RAW off the camera imported into Lightroom 5.3, no adjustments to noise or exposure, just cropped and saved as jpegs. I pasted all images together for side by side comparison. The same view looks smaller on the 6D because it is a full frame camera and if you viewed the full sized shots it would be much wider than the 7D image. Still keep in mind both images are at 100% and compare noise.</p>

<p>The noise looks better on the 6D at 2500 ISO than the 7D could get at 1600 ISO under identical conditions and lens. </p>

<p>My test location was looking into the canopy of a Japanese Maple tree.<br>

Here is a link to the test shot. <a href="http://ppcdn.500px.org/72858297/7d52d9bd394469f0a73e3ad8e651f6f9d4c7a3da/2048.jpg">TEST 1 LINK</a></p>

<p> </p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>Joe, the filling the frame is something to consider. You can see how much smaller the image will appear on a full frame camera, though the reach is identical, the resolution across the cropped frame of the 7D that will be 5184 pixels. The width of a 6D is 5472 pixels wide.</p>

<p>I will do one more test, this time using my new Tamron 24-200, I'll shoot the 7D at 80mm and the 6D at 128mm which should give a similar image size in the frame. Then look at a 100% crop and compare noise again.</p>

 

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>Mark, <br>

Cool test, I'll be interested to see the comparison as, like you, I use both the 6D and a 7D. It'll be great to know exactly how they compare. I confess to be a bit lazy when it comes to testing out this kinda stuff. I shot some stuff in Edinburgh Castle last fall hand-held at ISO 25,000 with the 6D and it was very usable. Amazing stuff.<br>

The 70D has quite a reputation for outstanding auto focus performance, but I don't think I'm ready to buy yet another camera.<br>

JD</p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>OK Here is test 2 using comparing the Canon 7D and 6D at ISO 1600 and ISO 2500 using the same Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 Lens on each camera shot at the same image under like conditions shot with in a minute or so, the time it took to move the lens from one camera to the other. All shots f/4 1/500sec</p>

<p>This time the 7D used a focal length of 74mm and the 6D focal length at 117mm to try to get the images close to the same size. Pretty close for an under field conditions test.<br>

Here is the <a href="http://ppcdn.500px.org/72867483/8d3eed19b09384214afd1ed424f36b0696644be6/2048.jpg">link to test 2.</a></p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>Interesting this is not displaying at 100% I will try cropping so more so the website does not shrink it to 50%</p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>OK, try this link to view test 2. <a href="http://ppcdn.500px.org/72875495/57fe4129646c8db770b6930842f320c20a9810ff/2048.jpg">LINK</a><br>

The 7D is not awful, but at ISO 2500 you really start noticing the noise in the bark of the tree.<br>

Keep in mind this was straight from RAW with no noise adjustment. But the 6D is better.</p>