HELP. Getting closer than 1:1 with Nikkor AF-S 105mm f/2.8G VR

[stephiie_jayne]

<p>Hi im brand new here and would like some help in getting closer with macro photography. 3:1 maybe 4:1. My set up is currently a Nikon D7000 with a Nikkor AF-S 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR.<br>

Ive searched all over the internet and no one seems to agree on if its better to add extension tubes, teleconverters, reverse ring or a bellow?<br>

Im wanting to mainly take photos of insects' faces. And still be able to have their eyes in focus. <br>

If this means getting a new lens I don't mind I just want to be able to do this :)<br>

Hope someone can help ive looked everywhere!<br>

kind regards</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Canon can do..! They've got a 5:1 lens........... Nikon...don't.</p>

<p>You can add extension tubes to your 105mm to about 2.5:1.....bellows is kinda limitless.</p>

<p>I'd guess Photo-Stacking is also required...I like Helicon personally.</p>

<p>EDIT. Are the critters ..err... Dead?</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Here's a highly compressed article covering pretty much what you ask about from <em>Modern Photography</em>. It's from 1967, but nothing but the AF and AE stuff has changed much since then.<br>

It compares close-up lenses (diopters), reversal, mirror lockup, macro lenses, bellows, ....</p>

 

[CvhKaar]

<p>Good Article JDM.<br>

One thing has changed though with the "digital Age": We now can do "Focus Stacking relatively easy , which helps a lot increasing the DoF for the final result.<br>

I like this article for an explanation :<br>

<a href="http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/focus-stacking.htm">http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/focus-stacking.htm</a></p>

<p> </p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Bellows are definitely the way to go for the extreme magnification you're looking for Stephiie. You may also need a reversing ring to get the best definition from your lens. Reversing rings are really designed to be used in conjunction with a bellows, not on their own - despite the amount of misinformation about them that abounds on the internet.<br>

If you get one of the Nikon bellows units that allow the lens to be tilted you can optimise the plane of focus too - without focus stacking. Although focus-stacking can obviously work with a tilted plane to further maximise depth-of-field.</p>

[stephiie_jayne]

Yes I'm looking to get real close to alive bugs. Ive never even heard of bellows until yesterday. Completely newbie to them. Can I

deffinatly use my lens with it? If so, which one do I buy and where from?

Thank you!

[mike_halliwell]

<blockquote>

<p>to get real close to alive bugs</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>they move.... so unless you cool them down....they move, quickly!</p>

<p>You cannot do focus stacking on a moving subject. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Can I definitely use my lens with it? </p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Yes.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>The bellow gives about 200mm of extension and it's not sufficient to bring the magnification to 4:1 with the 105mm lens. May be 2:1 but I have to check.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>Can I definitely use my lens with it?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not so sure - the 105 VR is a G lens and has no aperture ring. And I am not aware of a bellows that transmits the aperture setting - let alone when the lens is reversed. And shooting with an aperture fully stopped down (the default of any G lens) isn't going to be of much help.<br /> <br />Canon's MP-E 65mm lens seems to me the best way of getting beyond 1:1 actually 1:1 - 5:1. All you need then is light - lots of it.</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>BeBu makes a good point. Without reversing the lens, the amount of extension needed to get a 105mm lens to 4:1 is a bit unwieldy and not really practical. A shorter lens of around 55mm focal length (old 55mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor for example) would be a better option. These sell for very little money in comparison to the price of a decent bellows unit.</p>

<p>The only bellows that Nikon currently offer is the PB-6: http://www.europe-nikon.com/en_GB/product/accessories/slr/slr-close-up/bellows-focusing-attachment-pb-6</p>

<p>However the older PB-4 is a better option IMHO, since it offers the ability to shift or swing the lens for better control over depth-of-field. They do seem to command a fairly high price used, though.</p>

<p>BTW: Sort yourselves out Nikon! Clicking on the Accessories brochure download on Nikon-Europe site only gets you the Spanish language version. That's despite it being stored in the "GB" subdirectory of the server. Maybe I should try <a href="http://www.nikon.es">www.nikon.es</a></p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>I have a Novoflex bellows and they make an F mount adapter for it that lets you control the aperture of G lenses. I haven't tried how it would work with the lens in reversed orientation though. I use mainly Rodenstock lenses with it (much smaller than e.g. F mount lenses). It is the Castbal T/S which has tilt and shift capability but the extension range is somewhat short. They make other bellows as well, with and without movements. I'm sure you can find adapters by other makers as well that will let you control the aperture of G lenses (not necessarily with great precision).</p>

<p>One nice thing about using e.g. enlarger and old-school macro lenses (not Micro-Nikkors) on a bellows or with extension rings is that the lens is much smaller in diameter than typical F- or EF-mount lenses and does not shade the subject as much so it's easier to get light on the subject.</p>

[jose_angel]

<p>Even a 55 Micro is a bit too long to reach 4:1 on the PB-6. For such high magnifications wide angle lenses are best, or you`ll need to add a second bellows (PB-6E).</p>

<p>My advice is to start working with a reversed wide angle lens (any 24mm lens with aperture ring will work, I think it is around 2.5X), via BR2A type reversing ring. This way is easy to know about the way of working and effectiveness at such magnifications; if needed, the OP could add a PB-6 (or PB-4) later, and easily reach 4X and much more.</p>

[CvhKaar]

<p>mm Cheapest way to get closer / more magnification i guess is to mount a , let's say 50mm lens reverse to your 85mm or 105mm lens ( whichever is available..). for this there are reverse coupling rings available , i.e. screw a ring in the filter mount of one lens, and the other one in reverse on the other side of the ring ( Twin lens makro...)</p>

<p>As an examle a 50mm in reverse on a 85mm lens will get you up to 3:1 magnification..</p>

<p>Only thing to keep in mind, both lenses will need the same filter size . unless you start messing with step up rings, but then the secondary lens ( the one in revers) needs to have the bigger filter size to avoid vignetting.</p>

<p>Advantage : the primary lens ( the one mounted in the normal way to the camera keeps all its functions. </p>

<p>I do not know of a nikon branded ring for this but there are several "Makro Coupling Rings"for different filter sizes available on Amazon..</p>

<p> </p>

[CvhKaar]

<p>BTW , here are some nice websites discussing the different possibilities :</p>

<p>http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~oz/nikon/macro/macro_adapter.htm<br>

<br /> http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-poor-mans-guide-to-budget-macro-photography--photo-2857</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<blockquote>

<p>Canon's MP-E 65mm lens seems to me the best way of getting beyond 1:1 actually 1:1 - 5:1. All you need then is light - lots of it.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>+1 Dieter.</p>

<p>As soon as you use anything without a direct (or electronic) aperture linkage, you're focussing manually and then shutting the aperture down manually and by then your critter has moved, oh maybe 0.5mm, and is now way OOF. Now, 'film' is free and you can take as many as you like in the hope in some it them it has either stood still or moved back into focus when the shutter actually trips. You won't be able to focus it pre-stopped down @ say f22 as it will be really, really dark.</p>

<p>Just getting to twice size on my D5300 with a Tamron 60mm and full-auto tube set (Kenko DG) is pretty impressive if you zoom in to say 100%. I'll see if I can dig out a pic.</p>

<p>If you <em><strong>really</strong></em> need more than x3 on a moving subject, just go and hire a Canon.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>The attached pic is with a D5300 +Tamron 60mm + 36mm extension tube.....cropped to 100%, so 'actual pixels'.</p>

<p>I couldn't find my other tubes, so just shot this in my garden pond as an example. It's not the greatest ever and lit with direct SB-800 at 1/200 @ ~ f22 ISO 400</p>

<p>Working distance was about 75mm I think.</p><div></div>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Anyone would think that Nikon didn't want to sell their bellows unit, judging by how obscure they make obtaining information about it.<br>

Anyhow; the scale of magnifications obtainable with various lenses on the PB-6 bellows is here:<br>

<a href="http://nikonusa.com/kdb/images/pb6/PB-6repro_scales.pdf">http://nikonusa.com/kdb/images/pb6/PB-6repro_scales.pdf</a></p>

<p>I believe that previous versions of bellows will have a very similar performance.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Be aware that will bellows or extension tubes, the amount of light reaching the sensor is considerably reduced in relation to the amount of extension (see the article above). For live critters, you will need to go to very high ISOs to stop motion blur (also tripod, of course) unless you have chilled them to the point of death.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Interestingly, you can get a 2nd hand Canon MP-E 65mm for £650 on Amozon UK. That's not much different from a 105mm VR Macro!</p>

<p>Equally, it's a very specialized Manual Focus lens and a-lot to invest in unless greater than X2 macro will be a regular occurrence.</p>

<p>...Oh,and you'd need a Canon DSLR....there <em>maybe</em> an adapter for aperture control but I'm really guessing there!</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>MP-E 65? Pah! Who needs Canon's overpriced magnifying glass when a reversed 55mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor and adapted set of Pentax bellows will get you there?</p>

<p>Below (oops, near pun) is a shot of my laptop screen's pixels. Nearest I had handy to a fly's eye, and at least my laptop will keep still for me without killing it.</p>

<p>The pixels (each comprising 3 of the little red, green and blue strips) are around 0.25mm wide and high actual size. So the magnification is a little over 4 times at the sensor; with an extension of 160mm - all that my old Pentax bellows will allow. Another 50mm extension would get you into the 5x range easily.</p>

<p>Aperture was f/8 at a dodgy 1/3rd of a second with MU on the D700, ISO set at 800 and bellows planted on a sturdy tripod. It doesn't need a lot of vibration to take the edge off your sharpness at that mag. and if I could have set the whole rig in concrete it may have turned out a little sharper!</p>

<p>Of course with a non self-luminous subject I could have used flash and saved a bit of bother with high ISO and slow shutter speed. Didn't think of that before I'd pointed the camera at the screen. Doh!</p><div></div>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>RJ, what's the working distance on the screen grab? </p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>"What's the working distance..." Errr, enough!<br>

I didn't think to measure it, but I was surprised that the lens was nowhere near scraping the screen. Around 60mm clearance I would guess. I could've got a small flash in there at a shallow angle - no question. What I prefer to do is surround the subject with a part circle (or rather slotted tube) of white card or paper and blow some flash in sideways through the gap. This works quite well for coins and suchlike, by showing texture in relief while the shadows are evenly filled by reflection from the paper. Or you can use a tube of translucent material completely surrounding the subject and lens, and fire one or more flashes in by diffusion. ...... That's if you don't choose a subject that's backlit like I did!</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>How about the Dof @ f8 @ 4:1? Screens are flat but Eye-Balls are just that...spheres!</p>

<p>High-mag macro focussing is always tricky....but doable....but focussing stopped down, even if you have the light, is impossible at the apertures needed to get anything like a decent DoF. That's why auto apertures were invented! Studio-based on copystands, fine.... hand-held in the field, not so much.</p>

<p>What I'm not sure is possible is to hand-hold this set-up when you have to focus wide-open, then use your hand to find and then turn the A ring to the right place whilst Mr. Bug counts his many legs and moves off...or you move a fraction of an inch. It's the Aperture ring that would do me in!</p>

<p>Is the focal length (for calculating DoF) of the lens when reversed on bellows, still the same? </p>

[sem_svizec]

<p><em>Yes I'm looking to get real close to alive bugs. </em><br>

I think your best bet for chasing alive bugs is a reversed wide-angle prime on the BR-2A reversal adapter. The AI-s 20/3.5 is recommended, though many others will do (need not be "fast", you will stop down for depth; aperture ring highly recommended). Useful magnification on its own, and you can get more with a set of extension tubes (you need bulky bellows with longer lenses). Wide-angle produces lower relative background blur, therefore more impression of depth, despite same thin DoF. <br>

For moving bugs, use diffused flash. The viewfinder may be very dim, you may try operating the aperture lever in the exposed lens mount with your finger, or use a LED flashlight.<br>

If you don't have a suitable lens yet, you may practice with a reversed kit lens 18-xxx, @18mm and close focus; quality not best, may improve when using extension tubes (at higher magnification). </p>

 

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>I keep seeing the recommendation to use a reversing ring on its own, with a prime or other unit focusing lenses. So I'll repeat - <em>Reversing rings are meant to be used in conjunction with a bellows.</em> If used with just the lens, then you can't alter the focus or magnification. You have one fixed focus, which is not very useful. When you reverse a unit focusing lens, then the focus ring no longer alters the distance between lens and camera. All it does is act like an extending lens hood.</p>

<p>A reversing ring works after a fashion with internal-focus (IF) lenses, and this includes most zooms, but the 20mm f/2.8 AF Nikkor is a unit focusing lens. Therefore you'll get but one fixed focus if you use it on a BR-2A or any other reversing ring. Bulky as it may be, a bellows unit is really the only sensible option for magnifications of 4x and above.</p>