ilkka_nissila Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>The 45mm and 85mm PC-E work without limitations on the D800, and to my knowledge with all the E capable cameras (those without electronic aperture control the aperture is closed and opened from a button, e.g. on an F5). The 24mm PC-E has some limitations on some cameras, but e.g. on the D800 it can do a full shift up, just not in all diagonal directions. I find it mildly annoying to use on this camera, but it's possible to use it. On cameras without pop-up flash, it runs freely, but if you transfer the lens from e.g. D3, D4, or Df it may be left in a rotational position which the D800 doesn't allow, and it can be quite hard to fix if you don't happen to have the other camera (which is fully compatible with the lens) at hand to help move it into one of the positions where it can be mounted on a camera like the D800.</p> <p>I also think the pop-up flash should not exist in this type of camera, since it doesn't produce acceptable quality of light, and it is about the worst commander imaginable, spilling some light on the foreground of the image (even when it is set to M--, the sync flash is always there during the exposure), the ability to trigger remotes is limited in range, its use delays the exposure and after only a few shots it seems to need cooling down (the camera won't fire). Finally it tends to trigger eye closure reflex in the subjects. The SU-800 works much better as a CLS commander, less delay, more reliable, no eye closures caused by the trigger signal (since it's mostly IR). I think I would pay 500€ extra for a D810 with the pop-up removed and perhaps the Df viewfinder put in place of the current one. Many people now use radio triggering anyway, so I am not sure how many people <em>really</em> think using the pop up as a commander is a splendid idea. </p> <p>Instead of the pop-up, I would like to see an integrated or accessory radio control system for flashes (with integrated receivers) it would be much better than the current solution that mostly only works well in small, white rooms. If Nikon figures out how to integrate GPS/WiFi without compromising the strength of the body and maintain interference free operation of the rest of the camera, and have good reception and coverage, in that same place could be the flash control transmitter. On the other hand it is possible that an integrated trigger would not have the same kind of coverage as external devices can have (up to hundreds of meters in some cases). I don't have any real problem with the current system, as I use CLS (SU-800, SB-910 and SB-700) in small, white rooms where it works well, and elsewhere I trigger my flashes with the Elinchrom Skyport system, which has a really small trigger and lets me adjust the flash energy of Elinchrom flashes remotely (they have an integrated receiver). But time moves on and more and more people buy third party radio transmitters with CLS-like capabilities (including fast sync speeds, flash output energy control, and TTL) instead of using optical CLS, so what is the purpose of having redundant systems, the other which is preferred requiring the use of additional components on both the camera, and on the flash (one or both could be integrated IMO). These additional components are highly inconvenient in my opinion and in some cases people have reported imperfect operation due to the manufacturers having to reverse engineer the signaling protocol used by CLS (and some cameras are a little different in their timing of the signals, leading to incompatibilities with reverse engineered products). Some photographers feel it is too late for Nikon to integrate it now that the third party triggers work fairly well and are in widespread use, but I would still like to see them make "radio-CLS". Canon did introduce a flash (with built in radio receiver) and radio transmitter two years ago and I believe it has been well received.</p> <p>Returning to the topic of the PC-E Nikkors, I find them optically very good; the 24mm PC-E could be improved in so that it had less vignetting and a larger circle of coverage and less field curvature at longer distances, but as long as the photographer is aware of the field curvature and carefully focuses the lens with live view, checking the focus across the frame, results are quite good. The newer Canon TS-E 24mm Mk II has a better reputation optically and has more freedoms of movements, so an update would be very welcome, of course, but I don't think it's the highest priority for Nikon (it would be of interest to me, but these are among the smallest volume lenses that Nikon makes). A 17mm PC-E would be also nice to have though I mostly find the 14-24 to work nicely for me for interiors instead. I don't find fault in the 45mm PC-E or the 85 PC-E though the latter is slightly lower contrast and less vivid in colours than the other two (as it is not ED). This may be intentional as ED tends to produce colours that are a little too vivid for natural skin in portraits (notice that none of Nikon's purpose made portrait lenses is ED; these include all three FX 85mm primes, both DC Nikkors, and the 58mm f/1.4). Alternative rendition is offered in the 60mm, 85mm (DX) and 105mm AF-S Micro-Nikkors all of which are in fact ED. Different recipes for different applications, I suppose.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>I'll admit to using the on-camera flash occasionally for snapshots where light is otherwise a problem (and I've not brought external flashes). Mostly I do use it as an CLS trigger (occasionally with the SG-31R), and the SU-800 is big and expensive enough that I'm quite glad not to need one. I wouldn't particularly mind if Nikon replaced the pop-up flash with an omnidirectional translucent IR transmitter wrapped around the prism, which would be more secure. Historically the wireless triggers priced themselves out of use for me - though I appreciate there are now some significantly cheaper options. Mostly I've found myself using CLS in places where it works okay, and the camera's trigger ability means I can live with cheap SB-600s, so I'm grateful for what's provided. If the D810 lost the ability to command, I'd probably go looking for radio triggers rather than the SU-800. Obviously Canon have started doing their own radio system, as Ilkka says, but - despite wifi support in some models - Nikon doesn't seem in a hurry to respond. Especially until they remedy this, I think I'd rather have the on-camera flash than not. And don't forget the D810 is supposed to have an improved prism.<br /> <br /> My tilt-shift lenses are cheap options - a 65mm f/3.5 super-rotator adapted from Canon mount and a 35mm f/2.8 Arax. I'm a little tempted by the Samyang, but I'm told its optics don't hold up to the own-brand options. I'm annoyed that Nikon don't have the flexibility in tilt/shift plane that the Canon, Samyang and Hartblei options do. I'm hoping to use the ones I have more with the split live view in the D810. If Nikon match the 17mm Canon, I'd be very tempted (and poor). I'm not blow away by what I've seen of the tilt-shift optics from Nikon, but they're certainly usable, and I'd like to go there some day. (My cheap tilt-shifts have significant optical issues, but possibly not enough to stop me using them when live view makes it a bit easier.) There's always focus stacking, otherwise.<br /> <br /> Interesting point about the colour rendition, Ilkka - it had never occurred to me that there might be a difference.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>The coatings are improved, which will probably do nothing to reduce the vignetting in the viewfinder but flare may be reduced and clarity improved. Although I initially didn't get excited about the Df viewfinder now I feel it is better (than the one in the D800/D800E; D810 remains to be seen); my short empirical study suggests I can focus more reproducibly using it and the image I see is very evenly lit whereas it is hard for me to see D800 viewfinder edges without vignetting in outer areas when I wear glasses (D3/D4 viewfinder no such problems). Of course I will check out the D810 viewfinder to see what kind of improvement there is; I am always happy to see them work on it at least. It is just sometimes a little odd that they don't put all the best features in one camera. As with lenses there is of course a degree of subjective assessment and it depends on glasses and facial shape as well, which one you end up preferring.</p> <p>Yes, the SU-800 takes some space, it is, however, much smaller and much lighter than the SB-700 or SB-910, and it offers a control panel which is nicer to use than having to go deep into the menus of the camera. Above all since the signal is IR transmitted the subject posing and looking towards the camera will not be lit by it visibly, or closing their eyes because of it, and I've always found it to be a pleasure to use ( the range is better also, but somewhat directional). Radio TTL controller units can be quite big also when they have a proper control panel. The latest Yongnuo TTL triggers cost about 80% less than Pocketwizard and they seem to be popular now. Notice also that initially Canon's radio system was more expensive than Nikon's SU-800+SB-910, now they are the same price or a little bit cheaper, so clearly the cost is not the main issue with implementation of it, but something else. "Not invented here" syndrome perhaps.</p> <p>If I'm completely honest I would like to see the flash and camera manufacturers collaborate on a standard that includes advanced wireless triggering. That way, even if some manufacturer develops a new system, it would be compatible with everything; I don't think anyone makes a radio TTL compatible triggering system for mirrorless cameras yet. The chaos of everyone developing their own incompatible systems has continued long enough.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>I do not like the popup flash on any camera as well as the focus assist light. I do like the idea of the old days with add on motor drive but I do not like the idea of add on battery pack/grip. I rather the have the camera with or without the battery pack/grip permanently.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>Ilkka: Thank you, I should probably look at the Yongnuo options. I don't really do enough flash shooting to justify spending a lot of money on wireless triggers, but if they're sufficiently affordable it would be nice to have them in my arsenal. I suspect the biggest issue for Nikon doing their own is backward-compatibility - they'd have to put both solutions in everything for a while (as with the SB-600 and SB-800 for old metering modes). Still, we can hope. And I certainly agree that a standard would be welcome, but I suspect the desire to sell proprietary kit will put the big two off doing it.<br /> <br /> BeBu: It sounds as though you'd like some superglue... (I usually have the AF assist turned off, just as I usually don't use the flash, but it's nice to have options when the once-in-a-lifetime shot coincides with the thing you decided you don't need 99% of the time.)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 <p>When I was young I was kind of anticipate the once in a lifetime image but as I grew older I don't think about it any more. Now I am like seeing something and then go home and get the camera to shoot it next week kind of thing. That is to shoot something that I can count on is always there. So I bring the equipment just enough for what I am going to do that time. I in general don't want to have a camera or a tool that does everything I like to have a tool for a task. That's why I have no smart phone just a phone that I can count on working and it has no camera either. It has long battery life, waterproof and quite tough. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 <p>Pretty much everything posted by Ilkka above matches my experience. The SU-800 is a highly useful tool. The built-in flash is a toy and does not belong on a camera of this calibre. </p> <p>A radio version of the SU-800 and SB-910 would be even better.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 <p>It's the same 'Toy', that has an entire Mode to Face Priority AF, I remember the same indignant comments about that too...:-)</p> <p>Pop-up flash is undeniably <em>occasionally</em> useful, having it foul the PC lens movements is simply bad design.</p> <blockquote> <p>A radio version of the SU-800 and SB-910 would be even better.</p> </blockquote> <p>Absolutely agree! Nikon's wireless products seem a very strange array and way overpriced. It's not as if other companies are making cheap clones of the Nikon kit, Nikon don't actually bother in the first place!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_johnston4 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 <p>Makes me glad I got the 800E in the first roll-out. So far so good. My medium format has been sitting on the shelf June 2012.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardchen Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 <p>nikon SU800 is the most unworthy/overpriced/unreliable piece of equipment nikon ever made. When it is made back in the day, I sticked with my studio monolight. Wherever I went, I packed my studio monolight. It is heavy but i had no choice until pocket wizard radio trigger came and save the day. Now numerous radio triggers with various brands are available on the market with very competitive price and very reliable. Day or night, rain or shine, direct or not direct, indoor and outdoor with High sync speed up to 1/8000s, I never look bad for mediocre infra red triggers.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 <p>Well as far as flash I think there are 2 scenarios.<br> 1. A simple on camera flash with decent power with swivel, till and good dedication to the camera i.e. i-TTL, auto zoom, etc... This would be a unit like Nikon own SB-910 mounted on the hot shoe. This is good for quick shots.<br> 2. A mean to trigger multiple flash unit and they can be studio unit or portable flash unit. In this scenario there is no need for dedication, TTL, CLS whatsoever as the set up is likely to be time consuming an if you spend time doing so fully manual works jut fine. <br> Because of that I feel no need for the built in flash.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 <p>I'm sure that the pocket wizard flex ttl gear works well, but it's another expense, another battery, another piece of gear to take up space in the bag, and if you want to shoot with three lights, you would need four of them (at over $1000). </p> <p>The SU-800 is a single, small, lightweight (I can't believe that someone actually called the thing heavy) piece of gear that can control a large number of Nikon speed lights right out of the box. It communicates MUCH more effectively with remote speed lights than either the built in flash (disaster) or a flash head used as a master controller (directional issues).</p> <p>Flash heads in front of the camera, behind the camera, IR sensor facing the wrong side - it doesn't matter - the SU-800 triggers them anyway. I love mine. If you don't like yours, I'll be glad to take it off of your hands. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB_Gallery Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 "Makes me glad I got the 800E in the first roll-out. So far so good. My medium format has been sitting on the shelf June 2012." I only use my digital gear for 4 months out of the year, then it is either my Hasselblads or 4x5. That said, I did just put in an NPS order for the 810 since my 800 has 103,000 clicks on it...busy week for my B&H account, I get a new 610 on Wednesday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 <p>Speaking as someone who mostly uses available light, although I do have three SB600's and some manual flashes for the other minority of the time, I concur with Dan that Pocket Wizard priced itself into the "I'm not sure I need this" category. But at twice the going rate for the SB600, so did the SU800. I wouldn't claim the SU800 is big compared with, say, an SB910, but in terms of "already on the camera", it's hard to say it's small compared with the built-in flash. It's also hard to see how a flash built into the prism housing could swivel (at least sideways); once you're using an external flash unit, the only real merit I can see to having an external flash in the hot shoe is that it leaves your other hand free (e.g. to hold a second flash or a reflector).<br /> <br /> Anyway, interesting mixed reports on how people use flash control. I'll take that under advisement when I next expand my system. But with my current rig, I'd have been inconvenienced if the D810 lacked an on-camera flash, so I'll take what we've got.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 <p>Some <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3693657">information</a> from someone who apparently handled a prerelease D810. With the proviso that it was prerelease, it appears:<br /> <br /> a) The live view doesn't skip lines like the D800<br /> b) The split screen only lets you have horizontally level sections (that's a serious disappointment if true)<br /> <br /> Still waiting for word on whether live view hangs the camera until the image is written, like the D800.<br /> <br /> Here's hoping the split screen thing gets fixed for the final camera, but I could believe it's a restriction based on how the sensor is scanned. (I guess I can live with rotating the camera and cropping.)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizonte Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 <p>Still no price drop here for the D800/D800e...I never use live-view but after a 15 second exposure, with a 60mbs CF card there is a delay in writing the file.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 <p>Tom - a delay after a 15-second exposure is probably noise reduction (dark frame subtraction). You can turn that off - though I'd really rather be able to turn it <i>on</i> for all images (if I've done a short exposure in the dark an want to remove the D800 thermal noise). Currently, I believe you have to do that manually.<br /> <br /> The issue with live view has been that the D800 just doesn't respond until the data has finished writing - though it starts to write quickly enough. It's not a huge delay, so long as you use the fastest available cards, but it <i>is</i> a delay. And it's not there if you shoot using the viewfinder - effectively, there's just no buffer when in live view.<br /> <br /> I've not seen a UK D800 price drop yet either. I'm banking on the D810 price dropping more than the used D800 price does in the time between now and whenever I decide to buy one. (If I don't talk myself out of it. I need detailed reviews!)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizonte Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 <p>Andrew, thank you for explaining the writing delay after long exposures; it never occurred to me to disable the long exposure NR. Although I have enough accumulated in my Amazon "reserve" to purchase a second DSLR now, it is wiser to wait for reviews based on actual usage before deciding on the previous or the new model.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB_Gallery Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 My 810 has shipped, can't wait to take it for a spin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 <p>Daniel - cool. (I'll be saving for a bit, so I'm not "expecting" for a while, despite the size of my belly.)<br /> <br /> Could you please report back on the live view behaviour? (Particularly, whether there's still line skipping.) I'd be interested to know whether the thermal noise is any more controlled than the D800, but that may be a bit much to ask unless you have both cameras already!<br /> <br /> Have fun with your new toy!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB_Gallery Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 <p>Andrew, I currently have the D800 and D610, will likely have the 800 for a few days and then it will likely be sold after that. What is meant by thermal noise and line skipping? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 <p>Hi Daniel. Cool, and thank you for volunteering!<br /> <br /> The line skipping I referred to is the behaviour of the D800 when on maximum zoom (1:1 pixels or above) in live view. While mine's currently being cleaned, so I can't show you, it appears that the D800 live view implementation does not read every line out of the sensor. Have a look at <a href=" video</a> for an example, though I'm not particularly taken by the "fix" suggested. At best, live view - and probably video mode - appears to read only the number of sensor lines required to produce the image; this results in an artificially "sharp" image, but introduces aliasing. The 5D3 appears to have "whole sensor" read-out - all the sensor pixels contribute both to video and to live view, which reduces aliasing and also noise. I doubt this has been fixed on the D810, though there was some marketing talk of "removing artifacts" in video (if the whole sensor could be read at video speed, I'd have hoped for 4K support!) On top of this, there is the issue that the D800 never seems to get down to reading <i>every</i> line of output, or at least displaying it, so at 100% live view and above you get an interpolated image. It seems that the contrast-detect autofocus might still have the full image data available, however.<br /> <br /> Regarding the thermal issue, there's a mention <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/41746069">here</a>, and briefly <a href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00cTzO">here</a>: at higher ISOs or when the output is pushed, the D800 seems to gain a blue/purple haze towards the bottom left. Dark frame subtraction helps, but remembering to take a dark frame manually for faster shutter speeds (where you can't automate it) is something that I'm bad at. It's not noticable in most shots. I'm a little sensitive to this because one of the last images of my recently-deceased cat (attached, because the internet needs more cat pictures) has the glow at bottom left. (Not to be confused with the purple everywhere else, which was mostly extreme white balance.)<br /> <br /> There are many other things at question about the D810, so I'm sure any feedback you're kind enough to offer would be much appreciated, but I don't trust a lot of reviewers to pick up on these particular issues. Fortunately the appearance of the manual has helped with some questions!<br /> <br /> I hope you enjoy your new toy!</p><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 <p>In other news, I was in Nikon UK today picking up my D800 after its sensor clean (ARGH, just after last night's massive lightning storm; I did my best with a D700, but I'm probably one of the few people in the UK hoping for more bad weather) and someone wandered past with a D810 box. So, possibly unlike the situation with the Df, they've definitely shipped to the UK. Sadly, they gave me the correct camera back.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizonte Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 <p>At a local camera store here in the US, I inquired about the possibility of a future D800 & D800e price reduction; the manager informed me that according to Nikon USA, the current pricing would not change for another 6 weeks. The Nikon Americas website only has refurbished D800 bodies in stock, no D800e. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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