D800E firmware update 1.10

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Dear all,<br />

<br />

I seem just to have received an email from Nikon Europe telling me that firmware update 1.10 (A and B) is now

available.<br />

<br />

Unfortunately, the email seems to be malformed (or my email system is playing up), but there are details <a

href="https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/60443">here</a>.<br />

<br />

Still no SRAW or the ability to map the ISO or AF mode buttons to anything I can actually reach, but we <i>do</i>

have trap focus back! Yay.</p>

[lornesunley]

<p>That's good to hear, now I just have to wait for the update to appear at Nikon Canada ...</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I tried RAW Small on the D4S a bit and at least I don't find it to be a useful feature.</p>

<p>Normally, in its full strength, the 16MP D4S captures 4928x3280 pixels. I typically capture 14-bit, lossless compressed RAW, and the image files are around 19M bytes.</p>

<p>In the RAW Small mode, the D4S captures 2464x1640 pixels, i.e., Nikon reduces each dimension by half, and you end up with approximately a 4MP image. However the image files are still about 13M bytes each. In other words, you lose a lot of resolution but the file size doesn't decrease by much.</p>

<p>BTW, in RAW small, you no longer have choices between 12 or 14-bit capture and RAW compression; it is just RAW small, no further option. And you have to choose between RAW large (normal) or RAW small; you cannot capture both simultaneously as you could with RAW + JPEG.</p>

[jenkins]

<p>It's worked for me Andrew, I'm in the UK. If this camera had a small RAW I don't think I'd ever buy another camera... Until I did :)</p>

<p> </p>

[oliver_flint]

<p>This version update for both the D800 and D800E are on the<br>

Nikon web site here:<br>

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/19004</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Shun - I'm not surprised that small raw isn't so useful on the D4s - just as I never saw a point in DX crop mode on the D700. Quartering the D800 to get a 9MP result is still a bit more useful, especially if you're in low light and most of the extra capture detail is noise anyway (I'm assuming that the D4s bins rather than just discarding). I'm not quite sure what Nikon do to implement their small raw, but the D800 certainly needs all the storage space and frame rate advantage it can get. While the 12-bit limit (I'd noticed this too) is a bit frustrating, it's still more appealing than being stuck with JPEGs if you're expecting to recover some dynamic range. I believe the D4s can't do some of its in-camera processing on small raw files, so I'm treating the feature as a work in progress. It's just unfortunate that the D800 really needs it more than most cameras!<br />

<br />

I have to assume that Canon have some patents on their own way of doing it, or Nikon would just have copied it by now. It's well up the list of things-I'd-hack-into-the-BIOS-given-a-chance. I'm surprised that the file sizes you saw weren't a bit better, but it's generally true that larger images will compress better, so I guess I'd not expect to get quite down to a quarter of the size.<br />

<br />

I'll see about a download when I get home tonight. Simon, thanks for being the king's food taster. (Though I think you'll find "I don't think I'd ever buy another camera" is pronounced "this would persuade me to stay with the Nikon system and buy lots of lenses", just in case someone's listening.)</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Andrew, with <em>RAW small</em> giving you 25% of the pixels, you would imagine that the file size should go down by 75% as well or at least something like half the size. In reality, when it only goes down from 19M for lossless to 13M of RAW small, it is quite pointless.</p>

<p>If that same formula works on the D800, RAW small will be 9MP but the files will still be over 30M bytes each. You might as well shoot regular RAW and shrink your files in post processing. You can write an action to do that automatically in PhotoShop so that it won't take up your time.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>I wouldn't quite expect to get to 25%, just because compression tends to work better on larger amounts of data (there's more context). However, I agree that the difference you're seeing on the D4s is a lot less than I would have hoped for. To be fair, plenty of people have complained about Canon's sRAW implementation as well, but the D800 needs it more than most cameras. Speaking of other cameras that do need it, some medium format cameras seem to cope okay with pixel binning, but I'm prepared to believe that Nikon feels that the raw converters that are out there would be hurt too badly by just binning (the overlapping sample areas might cause some aliasing or loss of resolution if the demosaicer wasn't aware of it). Still, it's not rocket science to find something useful to do here, and I remain a bit disappointed that it's apparently (not having installed the update myself yet) missing after the "teaser" of the D4s.<br />

<br />

Still. Trap focus. Yay. This actually <i>was</i> a small part of my decision to move from Canon to Nikon.</p>

[joseph_smith3]

<p>I noticed in reading the firmware's write up that this is the second firmware change for the D 800/E. If my D 800E does not have the first one, do I have to download both, or does the second one include the changes in the first one?<br>

Joe Smith</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Joe, Nikon's firmware upgrade is cumulative.</p>

<p>For example, when you get version 1.10, it includes 1.01, 1.02 .... In other words, you only need to download and install the last one.</p>

[curt wiler]

<p>With this update, "focus priority" now really is just that, presumably just the way it always was before (I need to get out and test it to be sure). I held off making this my primary body because of the problem.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Curt: Yes. It's one of the reasons I've made a point of holding on to my D700, too. I don't use it much, but I do use it. While there were some attempts to justify the change in behaviour, I'm pretty sure that it was just a coding mistake and that Nikon have finally given enough priority to fixing it that it got done, rather than repeatedly attempting to justify why the manual didn't reflect what the cameras did. The change caused a lot of complaints.<br />

<br />

Every now and then there's a glimmer of hope that Nikon will fix all the things I want them to. They did do the focal-length-dependent auto-ISO, after all.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>I am sure it was not a "coding mistake". Basically this is a question of how the user wants to use the AF-ON button to activate focus. If it is implemented like it was in the D700, focus trap is possible but it's not possible to get focus priority checked results and recompose after focusing (when AF-ON only activates focusing); one basically has the only option to activate release+focus priority or release focus priority and get sort-of-checked-in-focus results when using AF-ON together with recomposing. Recomposing with the D700 approach in focus priority will result in not being able to take the picture, so AF-ON users had to accept reduced reliability of autofocus than shutter button activated single shot autofocus with recompose users. In the D800 (original FW) focus trap won't work but it's possible to get focus priority checked focus and then recompose and fire (without going back to shutter button activated AF). Personally I think the behaviour should be user selectable and not dictated by firmware version.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

If you are shooting work that will strictly end up on a website -say for an on-line catalog or news/sports site, sRAW makes

sense.

[luke_kaven]

<p>My expectation is that the RAW Small is not a raw file at all, but more akin to a TIF. This would explain the relative size. I'm curious to see more details on it. In the meantime, I don't see a reason to make 16MP images smaller. </p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Sorry this is a bit off topic since RAW small is not part of this D800 firmware upgrade, but I wonder whether Ellis' experience is from Canon or Nikon. To me, going from a 19MB file to 13MB provides very little savings while you pay the heavy price of losing 3/4 of your pixels that will never be recoverable. If one needs a small file for fast web posting, you are much better off using a JPEG, perhaps from RAW + JPEG. A 13MB file is still way too big.</p>

<p>In comparison, a 14-bit, lossless compressed RAW file from the 12MP D3, D3S, or D700 is about 14MB.</p>

<p>I hope Canon implements sRAW in a better manner.</p>

[lornesunley]

<p>I downloaded and installed the D800 update a few minutes ago from Nikon Canada...</p>

<p>It is nice to have Trap Focus back again, especially with bug (butterflies, bees wasps and flowers) season opening shortly</p>

[blumesan]

<blockquote>

<p>I am sure it was not a "coding mistake". Basically this is a question of how the user wants to use the AF-ON button to activate focus. If it is implemented like it was in the D700, focus trap is possible but it's not possible to get focus priority checked results and recompose after focusing (when AF-ON only activates focusing); one basically has the only option to activate release+focus priority or release focus priority and get sort-of-checked-in-focus results when using AF-ON together with recomposing. Recomposing with the D700 approach in focus priority will result in not being able to take the picture, so AF-ON users had to accept reduced reliability of autofocus than shutter button activated single shot autofocus with recompose users. In the D800 (original FW) focus trap won't work but it's possible to get focus priority checked focus and then recompose and fire (without going back to shutter button activated AF). Personally I think the behavior should be user selectable and not dictated by firmware version.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>At the risk of failing to understand Ilkka's post (I do not know what he means by "focus priority checked results", nor do I understand what is meant by "In the D800 (original FW)....it's possible to get focus priority checked focus and then recompose and fire..."), I have to defend my original conclusion that the original FW version of the D800 was in fact a coding mistake. I reach this conclusion simply on the basis that the change (from the D700 implementation) added no new functionality to the D800 while eliminating the possibility of trap focusing. </p>

<p>It seems Ilkka's argument rests on what occurs when one wishes to focus, then recompose and fire. It is my understanding that, under these circumstances, the photographer desires that the <strong>initially selected object</strong> remain in focus, and is not at all concerned with confirming focus for the <strong>object under the focus point subsequent to reframing</strong>. Perhaps one might desire to confirm that the initially selected object remains in focus after reframing, but I am unaware of any way to achieve this.</p>

<p>With the original FW version of the D800, focus and recompose (with Focus Activation set to AF-ON only) could be accomplished in AF-S mode in two ways: press and release AF-ON button; then recompose, or press AF-ON button and keep it depressed while recomposing. (Only the second option is available in the D700 and presumably in the new FW version of the D800). In AF-C mode one must release the AF-ON button prior to reframing in order to keep focus locked on the initially focused point. With any of these 3 option I do not see how one achieves "focus priority checked results" (again assuming I understand the meaning of that phrase).</p>

<p>Ilkka, please enlighten me.</p>

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

 

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>The point is that when you're in release priority mode, the final result of the focusing operation is not guaranteed to be in focus. It made some attempt and then stopped at some moment without checking if focus was achieved. When you're in focus priority mode the focus will stop only at a moment when the autofocus sensor sees the subject in focus. If you use AF-ON to focus, stop pressing the AF-ON and then recompose, if the focus priority is set, you get more consistent focus of the main subject compared to if the camera had been in release priority. In the new firmware of the D800(E), as well as D700, you have no choice in this case but to accept release or release+focus priority results where there is no guarantee that the main subject was in focus when the focusing was stopped prior to recomposing. Of course, if you use shutter button to activate autofocus instead of AF-ON, then you have the option of focus priority and recompose in either case, but I don't like to operate my camera in this way.</p>

[keirst]

<p>FYI, make sure you get the right file for the Firmware update for your camera. I accidentally got the D800 version first which my D800E camera did not recognize in the Firmware panel of the Setup Menu. I needed the D800E version, which is different from the D800 version of the update.</p>

[lornesunley]

<p>Whenever anyone starts talking about "focus and recompose" I realize that one of the things I most want is to have focus points across the entire frame from edge to edge.<br>

<br />That is the one thing most lacking in the Nikon FF cameras. With the D800 I notice the lack of AF points that are spread across the entire frame, I hate to think of the limitations of the D600 with its older less capable Multi-cam 4800 with 39 AF points instead of the Multi-cam 3500 with 51 AF points in the D800.</p>

[blumesan]

<p>Ilkka, please forgive me if I am being a little obtuse in understanding your defence of the original FW configuration (D800). I am looking for some feature in that configuration which provides an improvement/advantage over what is available in the D700 (and in the D800 after the recent FW update). I can find none. </p>

<p>Since we both prefer to operate the camera using only the AF-ON to initiate focus, I will confine my remarks to using that option. In the interest of brevity and clarity I will hereinafter use "configuration B" to refer to the operation of the D800 with original FW, and "configuration A" to refer to the operation of the D700 (and D800 with FW update).</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>"The point is that when you're in release priority mode, the final result of the focusing operation is not guaranteed to be in focus. It made some attempt and then stopped at some moment without checking if focus was achieved."</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Clearly in release priority mode there is no guarantee of focus. The shutter releases whenever you press the button, regardless of focus. True, in AF-C mode there is an attempt to achieve focus before the shutter is released, but there is no guarantee. I believe this is the case with both configuration A & B.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>"If you use AF-ON to focus, stop pressing the AF-ON and then recompose, if the focus priority is set, you get more consistent focus of the main subject compared to if the camera had been in release priority."</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>The discussion here concerns only the differences betwee configuration A and B <strong>when focus priority is set</strong>. There is no difference in the behavior of release priority between configurations A and B.</p>

<p><em>With configuration B</em>, when you use AF-ON to focus, and then stop pressing the AF-ON, <strong>focus remains locked at that position</strong>. If you then recompose, the shutter will fire with no regard to consistency of focus, i.e. without confirming that either the object of initial focus or the object under the repositioned focus point remains in focus (in both AF-S and AF-C mode). Moreover, this behavior remains unchanged even when one keeps the AF-ON button depressed after focusing and while recomposing. Contrast this with configuration A behavior, following.</p>

<p><em>With configuration A,</em> <strong>and only when in AF-S mode</strong>, again if you use AF-ON to focus, and then stop pressing the AF-ON, focus remains locked at that position. However if you then recompose, <strong>and focus is not confirmed for the object which lies under the repositioned focus point</strong>, <strong>the shutter will fail to release</strong>. <strong>In AF-C mode</strong> the behavior is the same as observed with configuration B; the shutter will fire without regard to focus. However in this case (AF-C mode), <strong>if one keeps the AF-ON button depressed while recomposing</strong>, autofocus remains active and the shutter release will be delayed until focus is confirmed for the object under the repositioned focus point. In most cases the delay is minimal to undetected.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>"In the new firmware of the D800(E), as well as D700, you have no choice in this case but to accept release or release+focus priority results where there is no guarantee that the main subject was in focus when the focusing was stopped prior to recomposing. Of course, if you use shutter button to activate autofocus instead of AF-ON, then you have the option of focus priority and recompose in either case, but I don't like to operate my camera in this way."</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I don't fully understand what choice has been eliminated by the new firmware, but let me explain how I use my D700 and newly updated D800 without having to use shutter button to activate autofocus: <br>

Autofocus activation set to AF-ON only. Camera in AF-C mode; release priority (default); AF Area Mode at Single Point**. <br>

When I wish to focus and recompose I press and hold the AF-ON button until focus is confirmed by the viewfinder indicator; then release the AF-ON button prior to recomposing. <br>

If I wish to employ the auto tracking behavior of AF-C, set AF Area Mode to Dynamic, initiate focus by pressing the AF-ON button and keep it depressed until the shutter is released. In this case there is no confirmation of focus, but that is the nature of AF-C in both configurations A and B. <br>

The only exception is when I wish to employ trap focus or otherwise wish to prevent the shutter from firing until focus has been confirmed; then the camera must be set to AF-S mode, focus priority (default), single point area mode.<br>

**I need to go back and check if this behavior changes if the camera is set to Dynamic Area. If it does not then this can eliminate one change of setting.</p>

<p>Sorry if I have been a bit verbose.</p>

 

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>The point is that when you're in release priority mode, the final result of the focusing operation is not guaranteed to be in focus. It made some attempt and then stopped at some moment without checking if focus was achieved. When you're in focus priority mode the focus will stop only at a moment when the autofocus sensor sees the subject in focus.</blockquote>

 

<p>Ilkka - I'm not saying you're wrong, especially since I've not tried to experiment to find the difference, but are you <i>sure</i> that focus spontaneously stops in AF-S prior to achieving full focus?<br />

<br />

My expectation (and I've been surprised by Nikon on plenty of occasions before) was that the focus/release priority <i>only</i> affected whether the shutter would release - as it does (as far as I know) in AF-C. I would have expected focussing to continue either until focus was acquired or until the shutter was fired, whichever happens first, not for the focus itself to stop early. I had always believed that the point of shutter priority is to allow the shutter to fire without having to wait for the focus system to catch up, not to tell the focus system to stop early.<br />

<br />

I think I'd failed to understand the distinction when we last discussed this (though I remember you making the point) - or I've simply forgotten. But if my interpretation is correct, there's really no advantage to the D800's original system. Are you definitely seeing the autofocus system stopping early with a2 set to "release"?<br />

<br />

Orthogonally to this, I'd like a way of defining <i>how</i> "in focus" is good enough for the shutter to release - both for AF-C and for trap focus. If I know I'm shooting at f/11, I may be able to cope with a bird travelling through the frame and only being roughly in focus. But there comes a point where it's better just to have an optical trigger in the way. Still, it'd be more convenient on the camera.<br />

<br />

Aside: Canon, I believe, stopped offering trap focus a while back. A workaround with a USM lens was to put your hand over the lens, wait for the camera to fail to focus, then manual focus where you wanted - while keeping the shutter down. Repeat for each shot. Real trap focus is much less annoying. Though my recent discovery that the M-Up mode only holds the mirror up for a few seconds on the D800 has reduced my faith in some of Nikon's automatic triggering options (my lightning trigger is much less useful than I'd hoped because of this).<br />

<br />

If Ilkka's right, having AF not behave "properly" under AF-On <i>would</i> be annoying. Otherwise, I really can't imagine that this was anything but a bug, especially since the manual has always said "photos can only be taken when the in-focus indicator is displayed" with no disclaimer about AF Activation. The behaviour of this bit of the firmware would likely have had to change anyway because of the move from an AF mode switch to the button on the front (however dumb I find that for positioning), and I have to assume that someone just made a mistake, just through Occam's razor. These things happen.<br />

<br />

I've not had the chance to do an install yet. I don't suppose you can map anything more useful (ISO, AF mode...) to the movie record button than has historically been available for the other buttons? I shoot movies rarely enough (though I've done it) that I appreciate some extra programmability there.</p>

[liljuddakalilknyttphotogra]

<p>Thanks for letting me know. Firmware now updated....</p>

[blumesan]

<p>@Andrew & Ilkka<br /> I was having trouble understanding Ilkka's quarrel with the D700 and FW updated D800 (see my previous posts). Andrew's remarks have only deepened my confusion.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Ilkka wrote: "The point is that when you're in release priority mode, the final result of the focusing operation is not guaranteed to be in focus. It made some attempt and then stopped at some moment without checking if focus was achieved. When you're in focus priority mode the focus will stop only at a moment when the autofocus sensor sees the subject in focus."</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<p>Andrew replied: "Ilkka - I'm not saying you're wrong, especially since I've not tried to experiment to find the difference, but are you sure that focus spontaneously stops in AF-S prior to achieving full focus?<br /> My expectation (and I've been surprised by Nikon on plenty of occasions before) was that the focus/release priority only affected whether the shutter would release - as it does (as far as I know) in AF-C. I would have expected focussing to continue either until focus was acquired or until the shutter was fired, whichever happens first, not for the focus itself to stop early. I had always believed that the point of shutter priority (<em>I think you meant to write release priority</em>) is to allow the shutter to fire without having to wait for the focus system to catch up, not to tell the focus system to stop early.<br /> ... Are you definitely seeing the autofocus system stopping early with a2 set to "release"?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>First, I can see no reason why, in AF-S Mode, one would choose release priority. Of course it would allow you to focus with a press and release of the AF-ON button and then recompose and shoot; while when in focus priority the shutter may fail to release. However a much simpler solution (to focus--lock focus--reframe and shoot) is to keep the AF-ON button depressed while recomposing. (See examples 1 & 2 below.) In all cases as far as I can determine, <em>where one is using a press and release of the AF-ON button to acquire focus</em>, the only way that autofocus can terminate prematurely is when one releases the button before focus is achieved.</p>

<p>I assume both of the above quotes refer to the behavior of the D700.<br /> I have, just today, repeated experiments with my D700; configured:<br />AF Activation set to OF-ON button ONLY.<br />AF Priority at default settings (AF-S @ Focus; AF-C @ Release; except as noted (**).</p>

<p>(1) <strong>AF-S Mode. Acquire focus by press & release of AF-ON button</strong>. Focus remains locked while recomposing. Press shutter button. The shutter will not fire until the focus point contain an in-focus object. This is the familiar trap focus.</p>

<p>(2) <strong>AF-S Mode. Acquire focus by pressing the AF-ON button and keep it depressed while reframing</strong>. Focus remains locked. Pressing the shutter release will fire the shutter (no focus confirmation occurs). This is the standard method of focus--lock focus--reframe & shoot on the D700. <strong>This is the closest you can get to a guarantee that the main subject remains in focus after recomposing.</strong></p>

<p>(3) <strong>AF-C Mode. Acquire focus by press & release of AF-ON button</strong>. Behavior is exactly the same as (2) above thus providing an alternative method for focus--lock focus--reframe & shoot.</p>

<p>(4) <strong>AF-C Mode. Acquire focus by pressing the AF-ON button and keep it depressed while reframing</strong>. Autofocus remains active causing the lens to refocus on whatever object falls under the repositioned focus point. The shutter will fire without delay so one must allow a brief delay to permit focus to be reacquired.</p>

<p>(5) <strong>AF-C Mode. **AF Priority to FOCUS**. Acquire focus by press & release of AF-ON button</strong>. The behavior is exactly the same as in (1) above. (This surprised me since all references to trap focus emphasize that the camera be in AF-S mode).</p>

<p>(6) <strong>AF-C Mode. **AF Priority to FOCUS** Acquire focus by pressing the AF-ON button and keep it depressed while reframing</strong>. Autofocus remains active causing the lens to refocus on whatever object falls under the repositioned focus point. In this case the release of the shutter will be delayed until focus is achieved on the object under the focus point. In most cases the delay is brief to unnoticeable.</p>

<p>I am still eagerly awaiting a clear description of what flaw in the D700 behavior was corrected by the D800 (original FW). The flaw in the D800 (original FW) is obvious: There is no way to achieve focus priority in AF-S mode.</p>

<p> </p>