The new Fuji XT-1

[c_watson1]

<p>As for Nikon and its APS-C fumbling, they still split the lion's share of the DSLR market with Canon. Guesstimates are that up to 80% of Nikon's DSLR sales are APS-C cameras. The CIPA stats tell the tale.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>Which effectively makes it a different chip, especially when coupled with different processing circuitry and Fuji's proprietary filter array.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>it's the same sensor. Fuji just gets more out of it. the point is that Nikon could have continued to improve the sensor and tweak it for better performance rather than go to higher megapixels. or they could have put a better AF module in the d7000 body, raised the FPS, gave it weather-sealing, and called it the d7000s or d7000p. my prediction is that if the XT1's AF-C and focus tracking is improved from the xe-2/x100s, we;ll see a lot of nikon users in particular migrate to the new body. now that EVF technology has matured, it's beginning to be an advantage over an OVF because of WYSIWYG metering.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>"<em>it's the same sensor. Fuji just gets more out of it. the point is that Nikon could have continued to improve the sensor and tweak it for better <a id="itxthook1" href="#" rel="nofollow">performance<img id="itxthook1icon" src="http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png" alt="" /></a> rather than go to higher megapixels</em>..."</p>

<p>I guess the contradiction just isn't obvious here.</p>

<p>FYI, this thread isn't about predictions. None of us know anything more than what Fuji's press releases revealed a few days ago. It's hard to quantify supposition.</p>

[cc_chang1]

<blockquote>

<p>"Nikon's response is 24mp APS-C."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I for one hate it. This will just quickly fill up my storage with very little to gain. The problem is once we are at 24MP, it will never go down from here, will it? If D7100 has a 16 or 18 MP sensor, I for one will buy it now to replace my D90. <br>

<br>

Back to the point earlier that many Nikon users are dissatisfied with Nikon for one reason or another, I now frequent Thom Hogan's site as he is using both Nikon and mirror less cameras, and quite critical of what Nikon is doing. Increasingly I would have to agree with him that Nikon's key design strategy appears to be following what Canon is doing, and Nikon is not doing enough of its own research to find out what we really want. He complains about the lack of any outreach from Nikon to the users and the company's repeated assertion that the decline of camera sale is a result of global economical down turn, but not the lack of interest in cameras that no longer meet our needs. The economy seems to be bouncing back in the US — will more people buy Nikon? When their designs did connect, like the D90/D300 combo, or the D700, they sold lots of them and created a new category.<br>

<br>

I remember the time when CD players were competing with one another with ever lower and lower noise and higher and higher sampling rates, which affect the sound quality that only instrument can measure. Then came the iPod with those tiny low def ear buds and now the traditional CD players have all but disappear. I feel the same way about MP in the sensor, as well as the perception of noise and sharpness at the pixel levels. This is all madness that does not greatly impact on our ability to take better pictures easier and quicker. If Nikon can make a camera that is iPhone-like easy to use, they will sell a lot of them. People want to take things with them with ease (and style, nod to Fuji), including a top notch camera.</p>

 

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>I guess the contradiction just isn't obvious here.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>that's because there is no contradiction. again, fuji uses the same sensor chip as nikon, ricoh, and sony. sure they are engineered differently, but the fact is fuji has been able to extract higher performance in critical areas. honestly, i think you're missing the point by arguing semantics. in the past, nikon has sometimes improved IQ with later generations of camera, using the same chip. the d90 has better IQ than the d300, for instance. they could have easily done this with a d7000s or d7000p, but instead they chose to play the megapixel race, resulting in a "top-of-the-line" DX body with increased resolution but also increased diffraction and buffer size issues which doesn't fully improve on the d300s--therefore creating an opening for a camera like the XT1.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>this thread isn't about predictions.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>uh, i just made a prediction. maybe you should watch and wait to see if i'm right.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>This will just quickly fill up my storage with very little to gain. The problem is once we are at 24MP, it will never go down from here, will it? If D7100 has a 16 or 18 MP sensor, I for one will buy it now to replace my D90.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>exactly, CC. the problem is that the d7000, now on closeout prices, does have a 16mp sensor but also an AA filter and a worse AF module than d7100. that's why it stands to reason that if the XT1 is any good at AF with moving subjects, we'll see an exodus of nikon d90, d300/s and d7000 owners.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I now frequent Thom Hogan's site as he is using both Nikon and mirror less cameras, and quite critical of what Nikon is doing. Increasingly I would have to agree with him that Nikon's key design strategy appears to be following what Canon is doing, and Nikon is not doing enough of its own research to find out what we really want.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>i've been reading thom for a while too. he can be a curmudgeon but the idea that he's more critical than necessary of nikon is hogwash. it's easy to see what nikon is and isnt doing right just by comparing their latest stuff to other systems.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>When their designs did connect, like the D90/D300 combo, or the D700, they sold lots of them and created a new category.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>exactly. i think that's what's known as a logical upgrade path, which fuji has now created with streamlined bodies and lenses which use the same batteries and lenses, offer best-in-class IQ, and are more photographer/performance-oriented than some of nikon's consumer designs.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I feel the same way about MP in the sensor, as well as the perception of noise and sharpness at the pixel levels. This is all madness that does not greatly impact on our ability to take better pictures easier and quicker.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>it's going to be interesting to compare reaction to the Sony A7/A7r and the Fuji XT1. Sony has spread itself out across all kinds of different sizes and formats--advanced compact, small sensor superzoom, mILC, and mirrorless FF. so one has to question their commitment to the latter. looks like there's not going to be a 2.8 telezoom or a 2.8 standard zoom for the A7 for a while--sony's roadmap has f/4 versions--while Fuji has announced zooms with these specs, which should arrive later this year. the problem is that puts a state of the art sensor cam behind APS-C, FX, and even m4/3 in terms of lens options. also, early reports suggest the A7/A7r have some focus-accuracy issues and other logistical problems which could limit their effectiveness for pros and advanced enthusiasts the lack of 1.4 primes or even a 35/2 kind of obscures any DoF advantage you might get from the Sony, and there's no portrait lens, currently. all of which leads to the conclusion that mirrorless full frame may be overblown if you can't get the right features on it and also have a solid lens lineup at launch and clear roadmap ahead.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>"<em>that's why it stands to reason that if the XT1 is any good at AF with moving subjects, we'll see an exodus of nikon d90, d300/s and d7000 owners</em>."</p>

<p>I'm fond of Fuji products, too. However, you should tone down the fanboy outgassing and have a look at CIPA stats re: Nikon-vs-Fuji and the state of MILC sales. What's obvious and verifiable to Hogan somehow's escaping you here.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>However, you should tone down the fanboy outgassing</p>

</blockquote>

<p>oh, please. i wouldnt call my self a fanboy. i'm more about functionality in the field than getting all hyped over specs on paper. i just really like what fuji is doing right now. so much so that even though i'm heavily invested in nikon (both DX and FX), i went out and bought an XE-1+18-55 and an x100. that's partially because i'm tired of waiting for a D400, and also because i'm tired of lugging around a D3s+pro lenses. now i'm looking at the XT1. why? simple. if i can get similar functionality in a smaller camera, and have a compact 2-body system that uses the same batteries and chargers, and has great lenses and almost as good hi-ISO as the D3s, then i'm all about it. Personally, i don't care about last year's MILC sales [which is never a good reason to make a personal purchasing choice], and yes, i read the Reuters article and Hogan's response. i care about functionality and getting the right tool for the right job.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that the d300 came out in 2007, and the d300s is just a minor upgrade. So d300 users have been waiting 6 years for Nikon to make a prosumer DX body as good. Since i'm not the only person in this boat, it stands to reason i'm not the only one who will move in this direction. I'm seeing a lot of blogs from pros who are also going to Fuji. Nikon just made it a lot easier for them, by ignoring its customers and not meeting expectations. if that bothers you, then so be it. unless you're in charge of R&D at Nikon, your opinion of what i think doesn't matter. it's not like i have to live up to <em>your</em> expectation of what i can and can't comment on.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>"<em>Personally, i don't care about last year's MILC sales [which is never a good reason to make a personal purchasing choice], and yes, i read the Reuters article and Hogan's response. i care about functionality and getting the right tool for the right job</em>."</p>

<p>So far, MILC sales aren't exactly killing Canon and Nikon in the N. American market. Friends who eke out a living selling cameras remark less on how many Fuji X cameras they sell than on who buys--mainly flush boomers who want a lightweight alternative to their hulking DSLRs. They're numerate, though, and know sales of mid-market APS-C kit pays the rent and feeds the kids. They had a slow holiday season and aren't exactly buoyant about demand. Hogan's recent comments on the market may, sadly, be prescient. Most "pros" are too busy finding and keeping business to run tell-all blogs unless chattering is their "business." "Pros" I know don't spend much time parsing fanboy blather, either.</p>

<p>Thankfully, Fujifilm isn't dependent on camera sales for survival. Even if their products weren't as sweet as they are, they're far better at service and support in my market than the major makers.</p>

[Sanford]

<p>I got old waiting for a replacement for my D300, too old to carry that monster around for very long anymore. That's why i transitioning into mirrorless, M4/3 now and maybe one of these at some point. BTW, the Fuji sensor is unique, manufactured by Fuji and shared with no other camera.</p>

[shutterbud]

I assume and actually hope, that DSLR sales will drop as people currently using 550Ds etc look to replace their kit and see all the new shiny things in the shop. DSLRs have the momentum at the moment and I feel it will be a long while before there is any viable alternative to a D4s or 1Dx for those who see it as a business expense. We have to be honest with ourselves here- a 5DIII or D800 is a great camera for the job it was designed for. This is why I see mirrorless as the middle ground, the alternative to traditional APS-C models. I feel if Nikon had introduced a fully-mature D400 18-24 months ago (likewise with a 7DII) there would not have been any need at all for many people to start looking for alternatives. I strongly considered the K3, but the AF module let it down- this is il-logical as I took the Canon M1 on holiday with me to see exactly what I could coax out of it- so far, it's looking good but I am keenly aware that there are oodles of cameras out there which are just as capable. If I'd had a 5DIII and killer prime, I could not have made that statement. The 5DIII is the best all-round image-maker in the business, the D800 is the best still-life camera in the business. Mirrorless has a way to go, but I believe it will get there. And for what the average D5300 user needs, it is there already. I think the buzz with MILCs at the moment is the fact that it is almost exclusively an enthusiast's niche- like fixed gear bikes in the cycling community. It's cool. But anyone who needs to cycle for 400 miles and has lots of money gets a carbon bike with gears on it. I was at a temple today watching successful men with 7Ds and D800s take pictures with tripods in the blazing sun and I felt in-the-know with my tiny M1. Mirrorless makes us feel special...and that's ok, since we are all spurred on to prove our credentials. But we must admit there is still a long way to go before a bod shooting the next Vogue cover reaches for a Fuji, even though it could actually do the job. I mean, how much resolution do you need for A4!? But try telling that to an editor who just spent 50 grand on a day's shoot

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>I got old waiting for a replacement for my D300</p>

</blockquote>

<p>so did everyone else who bought one 5-6 years ago.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>BTW, the Fuji sensor is unique, manufactured by Fuji and shared with no other camera.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>can you cite a source for this? Fuji doesn't make sensor chips, AFAIK. Most digital camera chips are manufactured by Sony or Toshiba. That's why we see so much standardization of sensor sizes across different platforms and manufacturers. Occasionally, we'll see nikon come up with its own sensors, like the D4/Df chip, but the d7000, d7100, d610 and d800 sensors are all made by Sony.</p>

<p>also, i don't see how my remarks on a possible exodus from Nikon are all that different from <a href="http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-answered-questions.html">what Hogan has to say in his most recent blog post</a>: "<em>Bottom line: some form of D300s successor needs to appear in 2014 or else Nikon risks losing all traction in this segment." </em><br>

<br>

I mean, it's a fairly obvious conclusion: you ignore a market segment, someone else moves in with a better product aimed at those same consumers. the overall MILC sales figures as of 2013 are totally irrelevant to how the market will shape up in 2014. Right now, consumers have the most choices they've ever had, and while MILCs may not totally outstrip DSLRs for some time, if ever, DSLRS have very little momentum as far as industry buzz compared to 5 years ago. in other words, if you already have a DSLR, there needs to be a compelling reason for you to upgrade, especially when faced with more compact competition with innovative features and design aesthetic.<em><br /></em></p>

[c_watson1]

<p>"<em>I mean, it's a fairly obvious conclusion: you ignore a market segment, someone else moves in with a better product aimed at those same consumers. the overall MILC sales figures as of 2013 are totally irrelevant to how the market will shape up in 2014</em>."</p>

<p>This is simply magical thinking.Unless it's coupled with basic innumeracy, you can't really argue on the basis of CIPA data that MILC sales are likely to surge to the point that they threaten depressed DSLR sales. Find a new chew toy.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<p>Magical thinking? Perhaps, but that's not what i said. or even implied.</p>

<p>I dont know how one conflates referencing a specific market segment--likely D400 buyers moving to the Fuji XT1--with a grandiose pronouncement that the entire mirrorless market is going to "surge to the point that they threaten depressed DSLR sales." if you can find such a statement in any of my verbatim quotes, please let me know.</p>

<p>What i <em>actually</em> said was that we're probably going to see an exodus of people who would have considered a d400 move toward the XT1, which has just about everything a d400 buyer would want, except for compatibility with Nikon lenses.</p>

<p>Why that obvious and logical statement bothered you, i have no idea. As i said, it's not really any different from what Thom Hogan has said, or what the OP has said, or what just about everyone who's blogged or previewed the XT1 has said. Just the anecdotal evidence on this thread alone confirms such an exodus away from DSLRs and toward MILCs is already happening.The XT1 in some ways seems like a perfect storm as it arrives just as Fuji's X-mount is maturing into a viable system, and at the apex of Nikonista discontent.</p>

<p>The next question should be, how much of an exodus are we talking about? That, obviously, remains to be seen.</p>

<p>We should also remember that it's not just DSLRs that are "depressed," but the entire digital camera industry. According to Hogan, "<em> Canon just predicted that their compact camera sales will be down 20% in terms of units in 2014. </em>"</p>

<p>The implication there is that this is an industry rife for change--and feeling a lot of competition from smartphones--so its no surprise to careful observers that innovative products are being embraced. I don't expect DSLRs to go away, but the endless reiteration of models hasn't resulted in any real innovation in that segment since either the d300 or the d7000, depending on your perspective.</p>

<p>Nikon hasn't helped with all its variations on 18-xx kit lenses, lower-end bodies with better specs or features than hi-end bodies, overpricing of its Mirrorless fixed-focal compact, confusing design decisions of the Df, and failure to make high-end DX lenses. In the meantime, other manufacturers have responded by putting out models with features that people actually want and/or need. Again, this goes back to my earlier point that while Canon and Nikon were busy one-upping each other, Fuji, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, and Ricoh were addressing market trends and putting out more innovative products. Magical thinking? Nope, just simple logic. There's a problem when my D300s and D3s have better performance in some respects to the newer breed of bodies, because there's no need for me to upgrade at that point. Either i'm staying put where i am, or i'm looking to other manufacturers, especially if they're offering something i can't get with Nikon. Hope that clears things up for you. </p>

<p> </p>

[Sanford]

<p>Who else makes or uses an XTrans sensor that "mimics the structure of silver halide film"?</p>

[andylynn]

<p>Fuji doesn't have sensor manufacturing capability. The sensor in X-Trans cameras is made by another company (I think it might be Toshiba?) to Fuji's specs. This is a pretty common thing to do - e.g., Nikon also does not make sensors, but gets Sony and Toshiba to do it for them. </p>

<p>The non-Bayer color array filter that Fuji puts on top of the sensor is the proprietary part. Fuji might be manufacturing that themselves - I know they've converted a lot of their expertise and production capacity from making photo films to other types of coated film materials, like their LCD components.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>"<em>Hope that clears things up for you</em>."</p>

<p>Simply reading the CIPA stats would clarify a great deal for you and show there's really no quantitative basis to what you're on about here. "Fact-free" seems to be your M.O. hereabouts. No more troll feeding.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>there's really no quantitative basis to what you're on about here. "Fact-free" seems to be your M.O. hereabouts.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>C Watson, do you realize that you've offered no quanititative argument yourself, other than referencing vague "stats" you can't even be bothered to cite, much less analyze?</p>

<p>Obviously a bee got in your bonnet. If you want to blame the messenger, that's not my fault. I asked you to point to anything i said which would indicate that you hadn't misquoted me badly. Instead we get more ad hominem attacks, which is generally a sign of when someone has lost an argument, but is too stubborn or prideful to admit it.</p>

<p>As i noted earlier, i've already read the Reuters article, and the NY Times article, and Hogan's analysis. I did all that before i bought into the Fuji system. As i also noted earlier, i own both FX and DX Nikon bodies, and have heavily invested in their lenses -- which hardly makes me a Fuji "fanboy," as you alleged. If Nikon was making innovative products which compelled me to buy more of their cameras, i would have done so.</p>

<p>But whatever. I don't even know what you're defending here, other than your own faulty argument, which seems to be based on an erroneous reading of statements i didnt even make. Which is otherwise known as projection. At this point, you can take your ad hominem attacks and your distorted misconceptions and just go away.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>The sensor in X-Trans cameras is made by another company (I think it might be Toshiba?) to Fuji's specs.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><a href="https://chipworks.secure.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=TOS-TCM5103PL&viewState=DetailView&cartID=&g=&parentCategory=a0u40000000QQstAAG&navigationStr=ListProduct&searchText=">Apparently</a>, Andy is right, although the Toshiba 16mp chip appears to be very similar to the BSI CMOS sensor made by Sony.</p>

[mark_loader]

<p>I thought fanboys used Sonys and hung out under bridges. Or Fuji forums. Whatever, I think Eric is too erudite (yes, we use words like that in Oz. It's the heatwave we're currently experiencing) to be called that. Fuji seems to have lit a fire and the enthusiasm that's followed is fanning the flames. This seems to have upset some people. I don't know why but it's irrelevant to me, as are things like market share, trends, Thom's latest post, Ken's latest opinion, or the price of petrol/gas in Lee's Summit, Mo.....what is relevant is that Fuji are making terrific cameras & lenses and my Nikons are getting less and less use. Now my colleagues love the results I've been getting and have no problem with the change in my direction gear-wise. They use D700, D800, D800E, 5Dmk2 and 5Dmk3. In fact the D800 young lady will be picking up her X-T1 this April in NYC. Anyway back to "fanboyism"....Zack Arias, Kevin Mullins, David "strobist" Hobby, Damien Lovegrove, Patrick La Roque, Dave Kai Piper & a group of guys called the Kage Collective. Call me a fanboy and put me in their company. Please ;-)</p>

[eric_arnold]

<p>just to add on there, for 3 years i've been lugging around a D3s+24-70 to PJ shoots. my backup was a d300s+sigma 17-50. i shot an art show with the XE1 and 18-55 and was amazed at the acuity of the pics. and it didnt hurt my back afterward. the XE1 doesnt have PDAF and isnt great at AF tracking, so that's an obvious limitation for moving subjects. if the XT1 rectifies this, my uses for a big, heavy set up are gonna be cut way down. just saying.</p><div></div>