bebu_lamar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>I must agree with Marc! There is no way Nikon could do without a mode dial or mode switch (press a button and turn the command dial) unless Nikon would introduce new lenses just for the Df or make a camera without P and S mode. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_chang1 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <blockquote> <p>I must agree with Marc! There is no way Nikon could do without a mode dial or mode switch (press a button and turn the command dial) unless Nikon would introduce new lenses just for the Df</p> </blockquote> <p>Which is why DPreview called Nikon silly since Nikon did "redesign" a new 50/1.8 to go with the Df by simply adding a silver ring for the look. The old MF cameras and the modern dSLRs have two different sets of control designs, each works well in its own right, and the Df shows that just mixing/fusing them together is weird. If you can't do retro right, don't do it. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_ravignat Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>CC Chang, I don't understand why you are saying this. The DF was designed to use every type of Nikkor lenses. They introduced the camera with one kit lens and would have had to introduce a whole new set of lenses with aperture rings with an A to please who? Everyone would have complained about this. The mode dial is not a flaw but a necessity. The camera can use every single Nikkor lens. We should be celebrating this move, instead of complaining about a mode dial. As for the way the dials are placed on the top plate, I am still waiting for someone to come up with a simulated mock up of a better design which would keep all of the dials with the EC dial on the right.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Andrew, Thom Hogan seems to like it and had this to say:<br /> "Fujifilm's <a href="http://fujifilm-x.com/teaser140128/en/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">upcoming X-T1</a> (to be announced January 28th) seems to incorporate virtually all of my comments [on the Df]:</p> </blockquote> <p>CC Chang, that is an extremely unfair comparison. The Fuji X series cameras first appeared in the 2010's, merely a few years ago. They have absolutely no need to maintain compatibility with lenses introduced a few decades ago. Clearly Fuji has a lot more freedom to "get it right." Nikon is constrained by an F mount that was designed over half a century ago. Even the latest D4 and D4S must have some compromises.</p> <p>Incidentally, I wonder why that brand is still called Fujifilm? Those aren't film cameras.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_chang1 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>Marc, the point is that it can't be done, unless Nikon truly and thoroughly makes the commitment to bring back the UIs used successfully in the film days. Nikon has long decided that the camera body should control the aperture and the resulting UIs on modern higher end dSLRs work really well whether you use the G lenses or the MF lenses. The dials and tower of dials plus the mini lockable model dial on the Df add unnecessary complexity to the user experience and they ask you to pay a lot for it. For people who wish to use most MF lenses, what is wrong with D610 (or D800)? What if Nikon just put the D4 16MP sensor in D610 and call it D700 and add $500 to the price tag? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>In the film days starting with the FA and then the F4 Nikon had the mode switch which had the same problem with the mode dial on the Df. Previous cameras didn't have the problem because they only have manual or manual and aperture priority mode. I am OK if Nikon decided not to include P and S mode with the Df but many people would have complained about that too. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>It really doesn't take that much imagination to envision a PSAM-dial-less Df. The easiest solution, naturally, would have been to do away with S and P altogether. <br /> Another, to design the top-deck more like the one of the F4 and/or FA. It would have been very welcome to have the exposure compensation on the right side of the prism, and the different shooting modes would not have been out of place on the left side (where they are on other Nikon DSLRs).</p> <p>So,for example, under the shutter speed dial would be the lever to select between P S A and M (like on the FA); the useless PSAM dial would be replaced by an exposure compensation dial, and the shooting modes move to the left side with the ISO dial (or around the shutter release, like they were on the F4). Or, it would also be easy to combine the exposure compensation dial on the right side with an ISO scale (for example, a little window and a dial that needs to be lifted to set ISO; it's not like that's unheard of on classic Nikon film cameras). More likely though, to have the EC dial moved towards the back of the camera, it would need to incorporate the LCD display in this scenario.</p> <p>I can also envision a scenario that breaks with the PSAM tradition - but I don't think that would ever fly with Nikon.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>I guess you can't please everybody but if they move the EC dial to the right like other recently introduced cameras I would not want the Df. The EC I know is very important to many people and to many it's the one that actually control the exposure. However for me it's an unimportant control and they can bury it in the menu I would be fine with that. I control the exposure primarily by the aperture and shutter speed with the ISO very rarely. I want to use the camera just like I use a film camera back in the old days. Don't tell me to go buy a film camera as I have plenty and it's the film that I have a hard time buying thanks to the digital revolution.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_ravignat Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>It really doesn't matter to me whether the EC dial is on the left or right side. I rarely play with EC compensation while looking through the viewfinder. I don't need to be changing EC on the fly while looking through the viewfinder. I will usually look down on the camera and change exposure with the EC dial if need be. I do the same with my other dslr's, rotate the command dial programmed for EC usually by looking down at the small lcd on the top of the camera. I don't think that the DF is meant to be used like other dslr's where you can rapidly rotate the command or sub command dial to exposure compensate while looking through the viewfinder. If you are concerned with speed, you can always bracket like any other camera. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 <p>I actually intend and do work fast controlling the camera with the focusing ring, aperture ring, shutter speed dial and the shutter release button. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <blockquote> <p>How can you implement the double A system as he mentions if the lenses don't have an A on them?</p> </blockquote> <p>i just shot my x-e1 in manual mode two days ago. the fuji XF primes have an aperture ring, the zoom lenses have an aperture ring but no numbers. there's a switch to take you from A mode to M mode, and you can see aperture values in the LCD or EVF. it's easy to configure P,A,S, or M, exactly as thom describes, and the actual real-world experience of shooting that way is pretty breezy. fuji totally gets it.</p> <p>i will also be looking at the xt1 with interest. after shooting a bit with the x100 and xe1, ive decided that i want to build a fuji system. there's really no comparison between build quality of the fuji 18-55 kit and the nikkor kit lenses, and the IQ of the 18-55--a $700 lens--looks as good or better as the 24-70 in the limited shooting i've done with it, plus the fuji is stabilized. a matured AF system and ergonomic/UI improvements could make the xt1 the go-to hi-Q compact, and the thought of carrying two compact bodies is more appealing than carrying two larger bodies. moreover, fuji is making the lenses i want too, instead of endless iterations of cheap kit lenses and limited-appeal normal FX primes with heavy price tags. $1000 for the fuji 56/1.2 sounds much more appealing than $1700 for the nikkor 58/1.4, since that focal length is in no-man's land on FX but an 85mm equiv. on APS-C. also, fuji and other 3rd-party vendors make grips which should help with longer lenses. plus fuji seems to have a commitment to customer satisfaction, unlike some Japanese camera companies ;)</p> <p>while i'm going to keep my D3s and FX lenses, and possibly get another FX body in the future, the only thing keeping me tethered to Nikon DX right now is the AF performance and UI of my d300s, which is getting a bit long in the tooth. if the xt1 delivers in this area, i may sell off my DX lenses to get more fuji stuff. i dont really need 24mp DX for most of what i do, and for the things on which i might want more MP, i'd probably want to go FX, so the d7100 thusfar hasnt proved compelling. </p> <blockquote> <p>The dials and tower of dials plus the mini lockable model dial on the Df add unnecessary complexity to the user experience and they ask you to pay a lot for it.</p> </blockquote> <p>what i'm hearing on this thread from Df owners is an irrational need to justify the camera's cost, despite the logic which says the UI should have been much more streamlined and the specs less frankensteinish. i dont doubt some will enjoy the Df experience, but it's not a camera that makes a whole lot of rational sense for a good portion of its potential market -- which includes d3, d700, and d3s owners.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>DPreview comments are already calling the xt1 "the Df killer." not exactly, since that body does make sense for pre-AI and older nikkor users, but it's really fuji's whole approach to their product line which is killing nikon right now, IMHO.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbright Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>Does the XT-1 have a full frame sensor?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albins images Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Let me just add a couple of lines.. we are not at 800 posts yet!! ;-) I never used Exposure Compensation on SLR camera's. And: The F3 also had a locking dial. In A-mode I just measure where I expect 18% grey and hold AEL. That works fast and reliable for me. In M-mode things pretty much work the same. ..O, I seem to remember that the F3 TTL flash compensation also worked through the EC dial. I modern DSLR's that is done through a separate button. In short: I would have no issues with the EC dial on the Df. Considering the €2700 price tag, I DO have issues with: 1) The viewfinder. 2) The AF module and possibly 3) ..No video.. And I am definately willing to change my opinion ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>Eric wrote:</p> <blockquote>the fuji XF primes have an aperture ring, the zoom lenses have an aperture ring but no numbers</blockquote> <p>Not all of them. Take the 27mm pancake, for example, which has no aperture ring at all. You have to set the aperture from the camera.<br /> <br /> Now Nikon <i>could</i> have a camera-selected aperture setting for "auto", though I suspect a good few people would hit it accidentally while aiming for a small aperture. You'd have to override this manually for a lens being controlled by an aperture ring, but that's not rocket science because the secondary dial would be available anyway. (I almost submitted a post yesterday asking how a camera with no lens speed indexing post feeler and no EE servo post detector knew when the aperture ring was set at its minimum value, but then I realised it doesn't, which is one reason you have to use the aperture ring to control aperture on recent cameras.) Is this better than a separate SPAM control? Probably not.<br /> <br /> I quite like the idea of having a selected aperture that I want, and being able to toggle between that and auto-aperture mode. For example, I might want shutter priority outdoors, but once I'm indoors and the light falls I'll switch to maximum aperture and aperture priority. (I actually usually just stay in manual, but I <i>could</i> do this.) You can't do that if you have to move the aperture and shutter speed dials to an "auto" position. So I've never actually objected to the concept of a SPAM selector. I don't particularly mind the one on the FA, which doesn't take any space on the top plate and is easy to find. I'm a great fan of the pro-body mode button + dial approach so I don't need to move my grip. What I don't like is jumping my grip to the opposite side of the camera to turn a dial (which only really makes sense when there are lots of scene or custom mode options). The concerns I've heard most people raise about the Df is not that there <i>is</i> a SPAM dial, just that the "lift and turn" control is awkward. But I really don't change mode enough to worry about it myself. (I <i>do</i>, absolutely, change exposure compensation with my eye to the finder - how would you know what you were pointing the meter at, otherwise? and the meter isn't even replicated in the Df's top plate... - but that's another issue.)<br /> <br /> The Fuji (I don't tend to bother with the "-film", but I do think of the company partly for its film products) camera looks interesting, but DSLR-styling makes the most sense if they're planning on adding big telephotos, which don't really play so well with the handling of the current cameras. I do like the feel of the X-Pro1, but I'd only want to use it with rangefinder-style (shortish) lenses. It's very unlikely that the lenses have FX coverage - not that this stopped Sony, recently - so I'd be astonished if this camera was full-frame. OM-D competitor, maybe; Df competitor, doubtful.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>I talked to a Fuji rep at a camera store last month. I was very surprised that on the X system, some lenses have an aperture ring while some lenses don't such that you must control the aperture from the body. For a new system introduced merely a few years ago, there is already such inconsistency in the controls.</p> <p>Nikon has some similar issues on the Nikon 1 system. On most lenses there is no focus ring such that you must manual focus from the body, which is very annoying. However, the 32mm/f1.2 portrait lens has a focus ring on the lens. I wish they had made every Nikon 1 lens that way.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>Aperture rings don't generally play well with variable aperture zooms - controlling the aperture from the camera is much more sensible on a Nikon lens. I'd actually not realised, until recently, that some Fuji lenses have an aperture ring but just haven't labelled it with stops. I've no problem with that, although trying to manage three rings (focus, zoom, aperture) on one lens sounds a bit much. My complaint with Nikon aperture rings has always been that they have to be where the lens meets the camera body, which is an ergonomic problem on a big lens - I believe that's why the F5 offered the ability to control the aperture right-handed. No such issue with a fly-by-wire system, so Fuji should be okay if they introduce a big telephoto - which may be what the new camera is about, since an X-Pro1 and a big telephoto are not a good mix.<br /> <br /> I suspect Fuji started out trying to be like Leica - and some of the early, small lenses work well on an X-Pro 1 AFAICT - but once the system was popular and managers started wanting it to compete with more complete systems, the design goals shifted.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>In other news, at the risk of re-posting information from a rumour site, <a href="http://www.focusingscreen.com/index.php?cPath=22_139">this</a> is a company that claims to be offering replacement focussing screens for the Df. For those wanting a split prism.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_ravignat Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>This company claiming to offer replacement screens offers no explanations as to how the screen would be removed and replaced. Can the DF screen be replaced? I haven't noticed a tap that would allow you to lower the present screen and replace it with another. Any clues on this? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_chang1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <blockquote> <p>some [Fujifilm] lenses have an aperture ring while some lenses don't such that you must control the aperture from the body</p> </blockquote> <p>I think there is one lens without the aperture ring, called the X<strong>C</strong> 16-50/3.5-5.6 OIS. It is a kit lens to go with the two lower X series cameras X-A1, and X-M1. The C may stand for "Consumer." This is apparently done to reduce the size and cost of the lens. Both the XA and XM have two command dials to work with this lens and they can both use the XF lenses by reassigning the two dials, how, I am not sure. Conversely I believe seeing firmware update to allow upper bodies to use this XC lens.</p> <p>In passing, I recall that Fuji is not the first company to put an aperture control ring back to the lens. Canon did this a while ago to their P&S S90 camera, which has a control ring around the lens that can be programed to perform many functions, including the aperture. Later, this feature appears in Samsung's NX cameras. Fuji apparently saw this as an opportunity to not only reduce clutter on the top plate but also to enhance the retro styling in its original X series of cameras. Olympus took a different approach to the retro design by maintaining the dSLR controls. They even maintain the "hump" by putting an EVF in its place. Rumor has it that the upcoming E-M10 will manage to put a built-in flash in the same place.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>The Panasonic L1 has the Leica lens with aperture ring although it can be used with lens without aperture ring. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>CC: I mentioned the 27mm pancake, which is a Fuji lens missing an aperture ring (for space reasons). But you're right, the 16-50 doesn't appear to have one either.<br /> <br /> I do like the ring around the lens on the S90 and successors, and now some clones. I don't dislike Samsung's ability to override what the "aperture" ring on an actual lens does. What I don't like about the Nikon aperture ring is that it's at the back of the lens, and my left hand is not usually well-positioned to use it, because it's holding the lens. It's a bigger problem with bigger lenses. It's no problem at all with an S90, obviously, and I'm perfectly happy setting apertures on my Leica lenses, or (from playing) on an X100s.<br /> <br /> My suggestion for giving the Df the "feel" of a traditional pre-F5 camera is that Nikon should extend the aperture follower ring around the mount so that you can move the aperture that way, rather than just with the ring on the lens. It doesn't have to be much, but it could be made to extend to where a left hand holding the camera in a "small lens conventional grip" could reach it, and reach around to where the right hand could be used to adjust aperture as well. I'd accept a "fly by wire" approximation to this scheme to improve grip or configurability. But apparently the front dial isn't the issue I was worried it was (at least to the same extent).<br /> <br /> On the original topic of this thread, What Camera (I think) have also reviewed the Df this month. But I've now read enough reviews that I'm not tempted to get it. I'll wait for Shun's report, and my own.<br /> <br /> Meanwhile, I see that Hasselblad have also decided to go with the "silhoutte teaser" idea. In their case, there's not so much hiding of the handling (I assume), unless the bits you can't see look like a Lunar. I've no idea what Hasselblad's sales figures look like (though I doubt the Lunar is flying off shelves), but announcing a CMOS version of your medium format camera a couple of months in advance does sound awfully Osborne Effect-ish (the Df was relatively ready to go). Oh well. At least it's presumably not made out of mahogany.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_chang1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>I remember in the film camera body, one can see the aperture settings sort of as a reflection in the VF, Is this why the aperture control ring has to be placed so far back near the mount? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>The initial coupling of the lens's aperture to the metering finder was simply a mechanical connection between the aperture ring and the prism - a feeler for the "bunny ears", via a cut-out in the bottom of the finder. The AI mechanism, which actually moves something on the mount, could probably have been transmitted differently if it really needed to, since it won't be worse than sending the aperture lever position back the other way to the aperture - though the notch in the back of the aperture ring is elegantly simple. Being able to see the aperture through the hole in the bottom of the finder is probably part of the reason for the design, though. Leicas - which, at least for the two lenses I own, don't communicate the aperture to the camera at all - can have the aperture controlled at the front of the lens. Electronic schemes can do what they like, obviously.<br /> <br /> I'm trying to remember how the aperture on my Pentax 645 works... Nikon very much went for purely mechanical communication between the lens and camera, which got very complex in the AI-S era. I don't blame Canon (and, later, Nikon) for going electronic. I'm not sure if there are any mechanical lens mounts that did something with the same level of camera communication but with the aperture ring somewhere more convenient. Assembled experts? (Incidentally, from a "neat" perspective, I <i>do</i> like the Hasselblad system for shutter and aperture, with the "program" interlock.)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 <p>Cameras that are designed to work with pre AI lenses don't display the aperture in the viewfinder via the ADR (aperture direct readout) like those of cameras of the AI lenses era. Some don't display aperture at all but some have the aperture scale built in to the viewfinder. One of the reason why you have to do the manual indexing of the pre AI lens so that the aperture scale in the viewfinder would match that of the lens. <br> Olympus cameras which don't display aperture in the viewfinder but do have aperture coupling to the metering system have the aperture ring all the way out in front of the lens. <br> I am so used to the classic Nikon (F2, F3, FM, FE) so that using the aperture ring where it is is just natural to me. Even the direction of the ring is also natural for me. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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