Am I really that bad of a photographer?

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Fred,<br>

<em>I'm afraid many do expect a lot from PN without putting that much time into it</em><br /> <em><br /></em>How true. There are many more 'takers' than 'givers', for sure.<br>

As for this comment:<br>

<em>we want to ask the administration to protect us (with a checkbox) from harsh or angry responses to our critiques, and protect us in advance by hoping they can set up a system where we won't even address the photos of those who might not want an honest critique</em><br>

I am not suggesting that the administration 'protect' us from anything. Nobody would be prohibited from commenting on another member's work, and really nothing would change over the current system. Having a check box to 'invite' honest criticism would simply indicate that you are eager to have honest critique. This hopefully would encourage other like-minded individuals to participate in that way. You mentioned that the PN staff is already instrumental in controlling the Off Topic forum and the nudes topic. Well, those both fall under the category of censorship, and I can see there would be vastly different points of view on those issues.<br>

I also really like Scott's attitude about participation, but for the reasons stated above I really like his check box idea. I also think developing a thick skin is in order. If there is one thing I've learned in my _ _ years is that no matter how reasonable or well-thought out my opinion is on a topic, there will ALWAYS be someone who disagrees. I guess that's what makes the world go 'round. How boring it would be if we always agreed! :-)<br>

I've read many of your critiques here on PN. You're rather direct, but in a positive way. So I'm surprised to hear you say<br>

<em>it's hard to negatively critique even an Internet friend's work</em><br /> <br /> Why is that, do you suppose? I feel the same way. But it's not because I'm not able to offer the criticism.....it's just that I'm not sure how that person will respond. Some people are just more sensitive than others. So again, the check box idea would alleviate some of the apprehension about leaving direct and constructive comments.<br>

I actually think (hope) that I've found a couple of people in this very thread who I will continue to collaborate with in regard to viewing images and commenting. I had no idea this thread would develop in to anything like this when I posted my 'vent'.</p>

[DB_Gallery]

"but I've also heard that a photographer can take up to something like 100 shots to get 1 good one. Hmmmm......iisn't a

professional photographer supposed to have enough knowledge about his equipment and lighting conditions to not just

shoot indiscriminately the way some of us often do?"

 

It depends on what kind of photographer you are talking about and what they are shooting. I can get a great peak action

shot of Shaun White at the Winter Xgames in a single shot, but there may be a distracting object in the background that is

gone by the next couple frames. I have also nailed great shots in a single sheet of 4x5, only bracketing to mitigate the

chance of dust ruining the shot since I only print it in a darkroom.

 

There are a ton of misconceptions about pros, especially ones who are in the more dreamed of genres, usually

perpetuated by forums like these ones on the Internet.

 

Branch out, get real honest critique in person from people who will give you honest opinions of your work if that is

important to you. Also realize that since this is not your job, you don't ever have the pressure to compete or get tons

better than you are truly capable of, so don't take it so seriously, especially those silly ratings.

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Alan, I said above that I am actually considering submitting my images for critique only rather than ratings. But I think I'll at least wait until the 'new and improved' site comes along. I'll be anxious to see what changes they make.<br>

I would love nothing more than to be active in a photography club. I actually belong to one, but I'm rarely able to go. They meet on Thursday nights and they take field trips on weekends. Well, I'm a performer, and I work when everyone else is off.....nights and weekends. So I am at a great disadvantage there. I'll be retiring soon.....next year or two, so then I can get more involved. I do occasionally go shooting with others, but we don't stay glued at the hip, and we each kind of do our own thing. <br>

<br />The thing I would most love to do is go to some of the workshops offered in various parts of the country by accomplished photographers. You get to immerse yourself for a weekend or a week, and you have immediate and hand-on guidance. They're quite expensive, but a friend of mine has done many of them and has learned so much from them. I've watched her grow as a photographer. </p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Alan, I said above that I am actually considering submitting my images for critique only rather than ratings. But I think I'll at least wait until the 'new and improved' site comes along. I'll be anxious to see what changes they make.<br>

I would love nothing more than to be active in a photography club. I actually belong to one, but I'm rarely able to go. They meet on Thursday nights and they take field trips on weekends. Well, I'm a performer, and I work when everyone else is off.....nights and weekends. So I am at a great disadvantage there. I'll be retiring soon.....next year or two, so then I can get more involved. I do occasionally go shooting with others, but we don't stay glued at the hip, and we each kind of do our own thing. <br /> <br />The thing I would most love to do is go to some of the workshops offered in various parts of the country by accomplished photographers. You get to immerse yourself for a weekend or a week, and you have immediate and hand-on guidance. They're quite expensive, but a friend of mine has done many of them and has learned so much from them. I've watched her grow as a photographer.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Chrystal, because I think a negative critique would best be done with some nuance, some questioning, some diplomacy so as not to turn off the photographer being critiqued from hearing the critique. Sometimes, negative critique is best when done a little at a time over time. Part of that is to make sure the critic isn't imposing their own view too strongly, but rather making sure one is letting the photographer know they don't seem to be reaching their OWN goals. That is not so easy to do. What I meant was it's hard to be critical of someone's work while also being positive, but with some thought it can be done.</p>

<p>As for honest critique, I assume that if one puts a photo up for critique they want honest critique. There shouldn't be an additional checkbox for that. It just seems silly to me. I can practically guarantee you that if people are offended by critiques they get now, they will continue to be offended even when they request honest critiques. They will either feel the negative critiques are not honest, because they're negative or they'll feel they're mean because they're negative. </p>

<p>I don't think of closing the Off Topic forum or curtaining off nude photos as censorship, though I'm afraid I do think of them as paternalistic.</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Stephanie.......<br /> <em>Just think how you feel when Uncle Charlie pulls out his box of slides and you are forced to sit through three hours of picture after picture.</em><br /> Hilarious.....but so true!<br>

Yes, I can try to create a more 'elite' portfolio, and I definitely see your point. And you're also right about it being difficult to do. I often ask my husband if he thinks I should post something. I still have a difficult time discerning between several similar shots I've taken of a subject. <br /> <br />I took a look at your portfolio (to see if you listen to your own advice).... :-) You do! :-) Is this the size portfolio you're recommending? Because I actually think you could add a lot more pictures without being in danger of 'putting anyone to sleep'. You have an interesting and eclectic mix of fine images. <br>

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts with me.</p>

[cyanatic]

<blockquote>

<p>Well, I guess the current photographer may not be entirely original then, though all art is a progression. I suppose you could find work similar to that of Woodman before she shot her images. Most work is somewhat based on what's gone before. The originality problem is when work isn't based on previous work but is essentially an attempt to duplicate it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There are many incarnations of "Woodman-like" female photographers these days. Some of them may be aware of her work, others may not. Natalie Dybisz (aka Miss Aniela) has made quite a name for herself, starting out, I believe, on Flickr. (Not sure if this is who Simon was referring to.) No offense to Ms. Dybisz, but her work relies heavily on her good looks and her Photoshop abilities (tons of semi-clad "floating in air" photographs). I see very little of the sensitivity and emotion that Francesca Woodman put into her photographs. (To be fair to Dybisz, she puts a lot of thought into her imagery and certainly sees her photography as something other than just fantasy fodder for 15-year-old boys.) Sadly, Woodman paid the ultimate price for her sensitivity. I was glad to see Bob bring her up in this discussion.</p>

<p>I know we've already been over this ground in this thread, but writing about Franscesca Woodman once again brought to mind the notion (suggested by many posters) that there is a lot to be learned by familiarizing yourself with the work of truly talented photographers (past and present). A lot depends on the type of photographer someone wants to be. Sometimes "just be better" isn't sufficient enough, or detailed enough, as a goal. Better at what? Dazzling the masses? Getting commercial assignments? Pleasing yourself? Getting published in arty magazines or earning a place in a prestigious gallery show? It's a big world out there with a lot of territory to explore. </p>

<p> </p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Daniel......unfortunately I don't know any photographers like you mention or have the luxury of consulting<br>

<em>pros or better yet, enormously talented and well known photographers giving workshops </em><br>

<em><br /></em>I am a professional in another field, in which I do have that luxury of professional courtesies, performing with other elite musicians, etc. But I'm just an amateur photographer, and apparently not a very good one, as you point out. <br>

<br />Thank you for your honest assessment. Other than your advice to 'take a workshop', what advice would you offer? You have obviously risen to the upper echelon in your field, but you had to begin somewhere. How did you get your training before you were in a position to consult other famous photographers for advice? </p>

 

[Two23]

<p>I figure my "keeper" rate is about 30%. Those are the merely decent shots. Even though I photo almost daily, I think I maybe get only 5-10 really great shots in a year. NatGeo photographer Jim Brandenburg once told me, "Only show your very, very best shots. That way, people will think you 're a better photographer than you really are." I still think your best bet is to join your local camera club. You will get personal advice from people who know what they're doing, on an on-going basis. Another thing I did was become buddies with a local pro photographer whose work I really like. Every now & then we go out on a Saturday and take shots. I drive and pay for the gas, and buy lunch. He gives me advice and we kick around ideas. He takes shots he needs, so it's a good deal for both of us.</p>

<p>"Daniel......unfortunately I don't know any photographers like you mention or have the luxury of consulting<br /><em>pros or better yet, enormously talented and well known photographers giving workshops </em>"<br>

Your local camera club will have people exactly like this who will be willing to help you. I think regularly attending a good camera club will teach you a lot more than a one shot workshop, and it will be a lot cheaper.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Gordon.......I have been 'listening' to everyone in this thread. You summarize everything well. I highly respect you as a photographer, and I have always found your comments helpful. So I place a high value on your wise words. Thank you!</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Michael......gee.....thanks for spending time going through my portfolio. I appreciate you singling out particular images. It is helpful. However, I venture to say that if I were to ask 10 people to do the same, they would be vastly different lists. I only say that because, as we all know, photography is a wildly subjective medium. Thanks for your efforts! </p>

[grh]

<p>I'm pretty sure that unless an image contains bare breasts, there are a large number of reviewers that will rate an image low solely on that basis.</p>

[tholte]

<p>"I love all subjects, but the main reason you see so many landscapes is that I have a very demanding career and rarely get the time to shoot except when I'm on vacation." And you want to be a good photographer? I wouldn't worry about ratings if I were you, or anyone else for that matter.</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Kent......Yes, I agree with Gordon too.....see above. As for the camera club, please look at my response to Alan above. Well, never mind.....I'll just paste the comment here:<br /> <em>I would love nothing more than to be active in a photography club. I actually belong to one, but I'm rarely able to go. They meet on Thursday nights and they take field trips on weekends. Well, I'm a performer, and I work when everyone else is off.....nights and weekends. So I am at a great disadvantage there. I'll be retiring soon.....next year or two, so then I can get more involved. I do occasionally go shooting with others, but we don't stay glued at the hip, and we each kind of do our own thing.</em><br /> I definitely will do this when I am able. <br /> <br /> As far as the time factor.......funny you should suggest the short trips. About 2 years ago my husband and I vowed to start getting 'to know our state'. We travel a lot, and as I was beginning photography I felt I had to go to grand places to take pictures. Then I started viewing work on PN and realized that a lot of shooting opportunities can be under our very noses. Or nearby at least. :-) So we do that…..not often enough, but we try. In fact, just today we did it and came home refreshed and energized. Not sure if I got any good pictures yet.....we'll see. I haven't been able to load them because frankly this thread has been consuming all my time. <br /> <br /> I'm going to answer the last few comments, and then I'm going to bow out of this thread. It has been extremely informative, and I have appreciated your wonderful advice. Like another PN member, Tony Hadley, you experiment at home. Tony has taken some of the most amazing images by experimenting in his kitchen using his creativity. This image of yours is wonderful, but I know it's the process of doing it that you learn from. I can certainly try this kind of thing at home. I did that once when I was beginning........to experiment with DOF I spent a lot of time shooting Xmas ornaments on our tree......and I learned a lot from it.</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Dan.......definitely!</p>

[shutterbud]

<p>Christal, loads of great comments from you. I do make a huge effort to get better and to go places most people wouldn't. A few weeks ago I was in the alleys where the 'working girls' live in a satellite town of my city- something the pimps did not like! (Un)fortunately, the girls seems happy, well balanced and quite pleased to see me, so there were no shots like I had anticipated. If I had postd a picture of a happy, healthy girl proudly showing me her baby I would have had to contextualise the image in such a way as to be really insulting to the subject, purely to feed my own ego.<br>

I feel that most of the conventions of SP have come about because of te limitations of film, sensors, AF speed etc and I want to bring the genre into the modern world, something most SPers seem uninterested in. </p><div></div>

[DB_Gallery]

Christal, I started when I was about 9, by 16 was told by my dad to not waste my time as every boy and his dog wanted to

be a photographer. In fact, I had a ton of adversity including teen homelessness to overcome, so besides mentors, I am

self taught. The biggest teacher of my vision was the works of photographers that etched deeply inside me and still is to

this day. This came in the form of magazines, books and when I was lucky enough to see one, a gallery showing. There

are photographer's who images literally might have saved my life because the immense effect those images had on me

gave me hope, shaped my being.

 

I am not saying you are not very good, but I did give some pretty blunt opinions as to how your work stacks up against all

that I have ever seen. Maybe ask your self what makes you want to photograph something, why are you picking up the

camera. Is the snow in the scene pretty or are you cold and want your viewer to feel that when they see your work.

 

The web can be a great place to source all kinds of things, photos and opinions on photos included. But it is also lacking

in a very basic human element: the presence of the human being it self. The origin of this thread tells me that you could

benefit from making an adjustment to your visual diet. Perhaps read the NYT's Lens Blog in addition to finding other

avenues of how people think and feel photography. As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words....well that is

potentially a lot to listen to so consider a balanced diet in how those words come to you and how your work is seen.

 

The world of photography is much, muuuuch bigger than what is on the Internet. I wish people who truly valued real

critique would venture beyond it.

 

I am on the road right now, when I have the chance, I will select what I feel is your best photograph ( my opinion ) and tell

you why that is, I at least owe you that much...;-)

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Bob.....<br /> Not long ago I had the privilege of seeing an exhibition of the photos by Vivian Maier. I found her work extraordinary, and I realized how rarely I get such an opportunity. Do you know her work?<br>

<br /> http://www.vivianmaier.com/about-vivian-maier/<br>

<br /> I had not heard of Francesca Woodman.....seemingly a troubled woman. I find her style really dark. But I think it's important to look at all styles. So I really should try to be more informed and learn about photographers. My passion for photography is actually rather a recent one. The more I know about it, the more I realize I don't know, which in turn makes me want to pursue the art even further.<br>

<br /> Here's an analogy.....I'm a violinist, and I've played the Mozart Violin Concertos many times over the years. I keep revamping my approach to them. It's inevitable. I hear other interpretations that eventually find their way in to my psyche. It's not that I copy any one violinist......but I create my own style culling from the many different interpretations I've heard. It's amazing how I continue to grow and change as I approach the pieces I've played for years.<br>

<br /> Thanks for the book suggestion as well. And I don't mean to burden you, but since enough other people are reading this thread now, I wonder if people would be willing to share some of their favorite photographers. It would give me a starting point. Thanks!</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Simon......cute picture!</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Allen......well said!</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Fred......<br>

<em>As for honest critique, I assume that if one puts a photo up for critique they want honest critique.</em><br>

I don't make that same assumption. I think they may THINK they want an honest critique if they post their photo, but most would be offended by direct criticism. Ideally, that criticism would be offered tactfully as you described in your first paragraph, but as you said, that's a difficult thing to do. Frankly, most of us are not very good at it. You are! <br>

<em>There shouldn't be an additional checkbox for that. It just seems silly to me. I can practically guarantee you that if people are offended by critiques they get now, they will continue to be offended even when they request honest critiques. They will either feel the negative critiques are not honest, because they're negative or they'll feel they're mean because they're negative.</em><br>

<em><br /></em>All I know is that I would not be offended unless someone was just a down-right jerk and trashed my work. And even then, I'd probably just completely disregard the comment, considering the source. So I guess we have to 'agree to disagree' about this. :-)</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Steve.....<br /> <em>there is a lot to be learned by familiarizing yourself with the work of truly talented photographers (past and present).</em><br /> <br /> I'm beginning to understand how important this is.<em><br /></em><br /> <em>A lot depends on the type of photographer someone wants to be. Sometimes "just be better" isn't sufficient enough, or detailed enough, as a goal. Better at what? Dazzling the masses? Getting commercial assignments? Pleasing yourself? Getting published in arty magazines or earning a place in a prestigious gallery show? It's a big world out there with a lot of territory to explore.</em><br /> <br /> And that's the $64,000 question for me. I do know that I want to share my work somehow.....and by that I don't necessarily mean making money at it. My friends and family love my work, but then none of them can even take a decent shot with a point and shoot (Well, my husband isn't too bad). So while I appreciate their support, it's not enough. Yet I don't want photography to become a career either. I'm nearing retirement, and I have spent 40 years in a demanding and stressful job. It's time for me to chill a little. So determining exactly how photography is going to play a part in my life is the challenge. But I figure that some things will just fall in place. As my work load subsides, as my knowledge about photography increases, as I have more time for shooting, studying and attending schools and seminars, as well as photo clubs, I think I'll fall into a balance that I'll be happy with. <em> <br /></em></p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Kent<br>

<br />"Only show your very, very best shots. That way, people will think you 're a better photographer than you really are."<br>

I like that! And I will definitely start participating in photo club when I'm able to.</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Gary.....this may be in some instances.</p>

[Christal1664882414]

<p>Tim.....<br /> <em>And you want to be a good photographer? I wouldn't worry about ratings if I were you, or anyone else for that matter.</em><br>

<br /> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that I should just give up?<br>

<br /> I'm managing the best I can right now, but when I retire (which is soon) I hope to put all my energy in to photography. In the meantime I continue to do what I can.</p>