Question for JDM

[david_kaye]

For many of us, perhaps the majority, classic manual cameras are those from Japan and Germany. Your main emphasis seems to be on

cameras from the Eastern bloc and FSU. The results, as posted by you and others, demonstrate that these cameras can be great

performers.

 

But what led you to focus on these cameras? I ask primarily because I wonder if I am missing out on something. I often am among those

who simply don't get the word.

 

Not trying to be provocative, just trying to learn.

 

BTW, I did talk recently with another Harvard PhD, Lisa Randall, who has an endowed chair in the department of physics. I am reading

her book, "Knocking on Heaven's Door", which deals with the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, and the search for the Higgs Boson.

 

She used the phrase " enormity of the universe" and I pointed out her error.

 

She told me, "I'll never make that mistake again."

 

We MITers are always pleased to help out our Harvard brethren.

[keith selmes]

<p>The cameras on my desk at the moment are a Konica Hexar, a Rollei grey baby and a Zenit 12XP.<br /> Across the room there's a Kodak No.2 Folding Autographic Brownie. By my feet, in it's bag and ready to go, is an MPP Micro Technical.</p>

<p>I would think of these all as classic manual cameras, although perhaps the Konica belongs in a different pnet forum due to it's battery operation. I suspect the MPP would get shunted off to the Large Format forum as well. But you probably get the idea, I don't feel constrained to any country or era, and I don't quite get the focus on Japan and Germany.</p>

<p>An obvious reason to select east european, is because they're dirt cheap. Also, in the UK at least, they were the entry camera for many amateurs and students, being more affordable even when new, but still adequate to the task.</p>

<p>My first SLR, and belated introduction to serious photography, was a well used Praktica with a Zeiss Jena lens, and I was very impressed, by comparison with anything I had before. So in the sense of being what we all learned on, almost standard issue, the east europeans really are classics.</p>

<p>More recently, I tried a Fed rangefinder, which was awful compared to an LTM Leica, and it went back on ebay. But the Leica did cost about 6 times the Fed price. (I mean awful mechanically, it felt horrible)<br /> My Zenit stays. It was bought cheap, only because it had a flash unit with it. But when I tested it for ebay, I enjoyed using it, so it's a keeper. It's a big heavy clunking lump, but I like it. The old worn out Praktica is still around somwhere as well.</p>

<p>Oops - I'm not JDM - but what the heck, it's a forum ....</p>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>My first SLR was a Practica Super TL and traveled with me all over Europe, before I headed to S. Africa, then to Canada. I had a 50mm C. Zeiss, 21mm C. Zeiss, & 135mm (?) lenses, It was very long time ego, in the 60-70s. It produced a lots of very nice images, never failed. When I bought my first Nikon, ( in S. Africa ) my wife used the Practica and she was very happy with it. Then, one day, I traded in the Practica for a Nikon lens. She get very angry, so I bought back the Practica, +1 more. And I still haw it in my camera cabinet shelf, perfectly in working condition, just like when it was new, after so many rolls of film. The Russian Zorki C bought about the same time as the Practica, is a paper weight by now. It is an uninformed fact, people think, classical cameras are German and Japanese only. Never mind the so many Wester European countries and the US produced cameras.</p>

 

[subbarayan_prasanna]

<blockquote>

<p><strong>e·nor·mi·ty ( ¹-nôr“m¹-t¶) n. pl. e·nor·mi·ties</strong> 1. The quality of passing all moral bounds; excessive wickedness or outrageousness. 2. A monstrous offense or evil; an outrage. 3. Usage Problem Great size; immensity: “ Beyond that, [Russia's] sheer enormity offered a defense against invaders that no European nation enjoyed ” W. Bruce Lincoln [French énormité from Old French from Latin ¶normit³s from ¶normis unusual, enormous; See enormous ] <br />Usage Note: Enormity is frequently used to refer simply to the property of being enormous, but many would prefer that enormousness (or a synonym such as immensity ) be used for this general sense and that enormity be reserved for a property that evokes a negative moral judgment: Not until the war ended and journalists were able to enter Cambodia did the world really become aware of the enormity of Pol Pot's oppression. Fifty-nine percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of enormity in the more general sense in the sentence At that point the engineers sat down to design an entirely new viaduct, apparently undaunted by the enormity of their task. This distinction between enormity and enormousness has not always existed historically, but nowadays many observe it. Writers who ignore it in phrases such as the enormity of the President's election victory or the enormity of her inheritance may find their words an unintended source of amusement.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>The above is from the <strong>American Heritage Dictionary, CD version. </strong>I appreciate David Kaye's pointing out the origin of the word's meaning. Words expand to envelope more comprehensive connotations in time, thus enriching the language. However, if the rule is applied as strictly as suggested by OP, then Americans ought to stop using words, such as, <em>Thug, Goon, Cummer bund, Catamaran, Trimaran, Guru, Tunic, Noodles</em> etc., etc. SP</p>

[dan_fromm2]

<p>David,</p>

<p>I wouldn't presume to answer for JDM. That said, I'm astonished that you've forgotten that there's no disputing tastes.</p>

<p>I wouldn't do what JDM is doing. I don't think there's much new to be discovered about the cameras he's working to learn about and educate us about. I measured recently; I still don't know everything, so find it easy to believe that JDM knows things that I don't. I watch his camera adventures, hoping that he'll eventually enlighten and surprise me. Until that happens, as I said above, there's no disputing tastes.</p>

<p>Let him pursue his hobby. It makes him happy and the resources he's using are his. Don't try to understand the inexplicable, learn to accept and appreciate it.</p>

[machts gut]

<p>Just for the record - Prakticas are german cameras.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>The MIT faculty club did have a better bar than the Harvard faculty club, but as far as I know you couldn't get a horse steak at MIT.</p>

<p>While I expect that there is a lot more still unknown about the cameras of the East than about Leicas or such like over-collected cameras, that's not the point. As some of you are aware, I have also pursued the history of autofocus cameras (mostly on the SLR side) and the point there was to assess the "quality" of the technology in relation to modern standards and to understand a little better why some cameras went and others stayed. I look at lots more than old Warsaw Pact cameras. And I am having fun.</p>

<p>In relation to the original question. My first sophisticated camera was the Heiland Pentax H2. While I was at Harvard, I bought a Praktica FX2 in Harvard Square to use as a second body.<br /> Years later when I went digital I ended up having to replace a Nikon-mount zoom lens that had got fungus in it. That was my first time on eBay. I was so amused by the experience that it occurred to me that while the Pentax was beloved, I really missed that Praktica with its funky operation and appearance. I actually ended up buying a Praktica L camera, thinking that the old cloth shutters were probably unreliable by 2004. I got it for $30 with a nice M42 50mm lens.</p>

<p>Then I discovered Dr. Mike Otto's wonderful Praktica (et al.) site ( http://www.praktica-collector.de/SLR_all.htm ). I knew I was never going for the sort of completeness he was achieving, but I was sort of intrigued with how well the Praktica L worked.</p>

<p>I once saw a cartoon of a guy surrounded by cats, and he was saying,</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"well it was just one cat, and then I got another, and....."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Besides, I had visited the DDR back in the time when it was the "second German economic miracle" and was actually set up to spend my sabbatical in 1990 in the German Democratic Republic. As you may be aware, by the time my sabbatical arrived, there was <em>no longer</em> any DDR.<br /> Damn Saxon Lutherans, anyhow.</p>

<p>Anyhow, as the old saying goes,</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.</p>

<p> </p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm afraid I'm still waiting for Dan Fromm to "enlighten and surprise" me too. :)</p>

[dan_fromm2]

<p>More proof that I was right not to apply to Harvard back when.</p>

[david_kaye]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I may have to give them a try. Two of my local photo shops get trade-ins, and

Kenmore Camera has a very sizable stock of used gear. It is nice to try before you buy. But I have never seen a

Warsaw Pact camera at either. I have a Kiev that I have yet to use. I wonder what other cameras could mount its lens.

 

I like to use words correctly and I vote for restricting enormity to evil. When I was about 12, I discovered the Nero Wolfe mysteries written by Rex Stout. Wolfe once refused to take on a client because he used "contact" as a verb.

 

JDM, I gather you were on the faculty of Harvard and Illinois. If I weren't living in the Seattle area, I would be living in a

suburb of Boston.

 

Dan, you seem to be in a semi permanent state of rage. JDM is one of the best informed and even tempered poster on

pnet.

 

JDM, which SSB rangefinder and SLR should I be looking for?

[User_4525289]

<p>Which Kiev? If 35 mm one it is prewar Contax mount. If 120 format it is Kiev/Pentacon Six mount. There are Kiev SLRs with two different mounts etc...</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Actually, I was "sort of faculty" - I was appointed by the Corporation (still have the letter to prove it somewhere in my files) as a "Teaching Fellow".</p>

<p>Although this was only a glorified teaching assistantship, you were actually a member of the faculty club. Young gentlemen, I suppose, we were supposed to be.<br>

You didn't get any really important privileges like better parking, of course. ;)</p>

[david_kaye]

Kozma, my Kiev is a 35mm. I have a Contax IIa. Are the lenses interchangeable?

[lex_jenkins]

<blockquote>

<p>I once saw a cartoon of a guy surrounded by cats, and he was saying,</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"well it was just one cat, and then I got another, and....."</p>

</blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

<p>That may be the best summation of how these things happen.</p>

<p>I don't even like cats but they refuse to respect my preferences and follow me home anyway. A few weeks ago a dumpster kitty followed me yowling "Me! Me! Me!". I'm betting her mom was Mehitabel. And now I have three dysfunctional critters who have no respect for the fact that I don't like cats.</p>

<p>Likewise, I don't get along well with rangefinders. I can't get the knack for focusing the darned things. But I really like 'em for the compact size, quiet shutters and optical finders, so I just stop down, zone focus and snap away. So I hardly ever use my SLRs anymore. Mostly compact rangefinders and non-RF cameras with and without optical finders.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>At the beginning of <em>Animal House</em>, Dean Wormer (who became my beau ideal when I became a Dean) asks the sniveling little frat guy which is the "worst fraternity" at Faber College. The sniveler replies that "each is outstanding in its own way"....</p>

<p>So, each Soviet camera is "outstanding in its own way", all I can do is point to my favorites.</p>

<p>First, the best cameras in the Warsaw Pact countries were the East German ones. They were the dream of people who could never hope to own a Leica, Nikon, or Canon. Of the DDR cameras, the "best" is quite good by world standards -- the Pentacon Super. It was hideously expensive and few were sold, but it really is the last, best effort of Europe to respond the the Nikon F.<br>

Because of their rarity, they are very expensive, however.</p>

<p>Of the day-to-day cameras, the finest M42 cameras are the wonderful Praktica L series with a superb vertical metal shutter. While their meters may or may not work nowadays (similar to all other cameras of a "certain age"), they are otherwise work horses that will soldier on. The better Meyer lenses are workmanlike, but the Zeiss Jena lenses are optically and mechanically outstanding performers. Unfortunately, this has been 'discovered' and the prices are much higher than they were when I started.</p>

<p>The later Praktica B (bayonett mount) series are also good, but more fragile.</p>

<p>As far as rangefinders go, my personal favorite from the East is the Kiev. One of my Kievs that had been transformed 'back' into the Contax II that it is a continuation of, is very nearly as smooth and certainly as usable as my real Contax IIa from the West.<br>

Honestly, my Nikon S2 (also same mount), is an illustration of why Japan now dominates the camera field, but it doesn't take any better pictures than the Kiev/Contaxes.<br>

Of the Leica thread mount cameras, my personal experience is that the FED-2 is very useable, and the later FEDs - having grown into rather large RFs - are both cheap and good. Some people like Zorkiis, but my experiences are shaded by my intolerance for bottom loading cameras.</p>

 

[Alan Johnson]

<p>Those E European guys were also much more devoted to the production of classic manual cameras, for instance the Zenit 19 was produced till 1987 whilst the Japanese adopted autoexposure around 1974.</p>

[dan_fromm2]

<blockquote>

<p>Those E European guys were also much more devoted to the production of classic manual cameras, for instance the Zenit 19 was produced till 1987 whilst the Japanese adopted autoexposure around 1974.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Interesting. I've always thought that the FM-2n I bought new in 1986 lacked autoexposure, never saw the lack as a major shortcoming. I guess I'd better dig out the manual and reread to see what I missed.</p>

[tony_lockerbie]

<p>I was going to make some comment but I didn't go to MIT or Harvard...hell, I didn't even go to America! Can't see a problem with someone concentrating on one make or one country for their collecting, sure wish I had!</p>

[Alan Johnson]

<p>Nikon, like Canon,Pentax and Olympus have their own forums and mention of them is more frequent there.I did not say all Japanese cameras adopted autoexposure early on but a lot of them did.</p>

[chuck_foreman1]

You asked if the Kiev and the Contax IIa are lens compatible? Yes 95%. If you have a Jupiter 12 wide angle 35mm or anything wider. It is likely too deep and will damage the Conatx IIa if forced on. This is essentially true for the pre-war Wide Angles too They were made for the predecessor Contax II ( no "a" ) That's the only exception!!

[JDMvW]

<p>To add to Chuck's comment, the Nikon RFs have a mount that is the same as the Contax/Kiev mount, but the flange to film plane distance is just slightly different.<br>

So on the Nikon S2, for example, the German and Soviet Contax mount lenses will not focus properly, <em>except</em> that on those (unlike the Contax IIa) the Soviet and German wide angles have enough depth of focus that they can be used easily.</p>

<p>For other focal lengths, you can use the Soviet and older (East) German lenses on the Contax IIa, but you have to get post-war Contax Western lenses to have wide angle, so far as I can figure out.</p>

<p>I don't know how the Nikon wide angles would do on a Contax IIa, but I don't imagine either are cheap.</p>

[User_4525289]

<p>JDM, arguably the best Soviet block camera were Czechoslovakia made Flexarets. They the only ones could compete on the level of built quality and design with their direct competitors.<br /> Other ones were well OK. But we should factor the style of the Soviet era photography.</p>

[david_kaye]

My Kiev came with a 50mm lens so I will cautiously try it on my Contax IIa. That camera, the IIa, is a thing of beauty. But,

I have to find a more cost effective camera than the Konica auto S2, followed closely by the Canon GIII. The Yashica

GSN ain't too bad either.

 

So you were/are a Dean, JDM. I feel like I am pealing an onion, as I learn more. I am very impressed. I think a life spent

in academia would be wonderful. When I attended MIT, they had TA's of course, but they mainly graded exams and

homework, and pronto red exams. With one exception. I took a course on aerodynamics, it was taught 100% by a

young, cute TA. And she was wonderful. Her name is Sheila Widnall and Clinton appointed her Secretary of the Air

Force. I had at least two exams procured by Edgar Mitchell. Who is that? He accompanied Alan Shepard to the moon.

 

I will be checking KEH and eBay for gear. Chacun à son gout.

[david_kaye]

Maybe the Brits can speak to this, but I recall in one of Matanle's books, it was difficult to import expensive cameras into

the UK right after WW2. So the SSB cameras, at lower cost, would have been a good choice.

[david_kaye]

This has been a very pleasant, engaging and informative thread thus far, and let us do our best to cheer Dan up.

[User_4525289]

<p>David Kiev you have I assume is 4? It comes with Jupiter 8m, or Helios 103 50 mm lenses. Both are nice performers. If they should fit Contax IIa mount without an issue. I do not think that they will be better that Zeiss Sonnar but should not be markedly worse.</p>