Why would I want to have more than one AF point?

[David_Cavan]

<p>I rarely shoot at shallow DOF, David, so my "disaster" is quite different than what you're describing. I have vehicles going by at 200mph; or animals/birds moving quickly across the shot, at greater distances. There's no time to be moving a joystick.</p>

<p>I'm just saying that being doctrinaire about this is not the way to go - there's reasons why multiple AF's work; and on occasion it's OK to use just one. The situation drives the need - and there's definitely a need for multiple points.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>Race cars are actually a fairly easy AF challenge and I'd likely use multi-point also. Birds in flight are a different matter, often shot with wide open aperture and high shutter speed. If you pay attention to which way the wind is blowing, you'll no the likely know the direction of flight and can pre-position the single-point AF point left or right, as needed.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<blockquote>

<p>"Once I started really concentrating on using all the AF points my focus improved incredibly."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ian, I've been meaning to ask you about this because most of your portraits are with fast lenses wide open. Do you use group/pattern AF, or single AF point selected with the paddle or joystick?</p>

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>Rule of the third and golden mean need never apply.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

I've never been a big fan of cookie cutter composition techniques. I prefer to let my eye determine where to place the subject. </p>

[philip_wilson]

Robert the last two images are easy to take using a centre AF point and re-composing as both are taken with a deep

DOF. The only issue with using the centre point and re-composing is parallax error which only happens with close

subjects and very shallow DOF. The first image can also be taken in this way as it appears shot at infinity. Focus and re-

compose was standard technique with most manual focus cameras as historically the only good manual focus point was

in the centre (usually a split prism or rangefinder).

 

Indeed you will notice that Cartier Breslin, Robert Capa, Nick Ut and other Leica users were capable of composition

despite only being able to focus in the centre and then re-compose. The same is true for Canon and Nikon MF SLR

users most of whom used a split prism or similar focusing screen.

 

Indeed the folder ratio and rule of thirds predate autofocus and indeed the camera

[bob_bill]

<p>For wide open fast glass, I move the one focus point so there is minimal, if any, recompose movement. When working with a quarter inch dof, composing significantly can move out of focus that eye you focused upon . Compose, move the focus point to the chosen eye, focus and shoot. Can leave the focus point if shooting a series. In those situations I try to shoot tethered to be sure I am nailing it.</p>

[robert_k1]

<blockquote>

<p>Robert the last two images are easy to take using a centre AF point and re-composing as both are taken with a deep DOF.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Completely in agreement. That's why I said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Those who use center focus point only (or the majority of the time) and without recomposing or cropping later must live a charmed life.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I also agree with:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Indeed you will notice that Cartier Breslin, Robert Capa, Nick Ut and other Leica users were capable of composition despite only being able to focus in the centre and then re-compose.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>By manually focusing, they locked it before recomposing and releasing the shutter. That's how I started with film bodies. Even if they had dSLRs in their hands, I doubt that they would have time to move the focus point and still capture those "decisive moments". Perhaps they would have to resort to "back button focusing" which I referred to earlier in this thread. For many fast changing situations, that's the only way I know how to lock focus and recompose on a dSLR. For landscape, still life, etc. I would move the focus point, at my leisure.<br /> <br />With digital point&shoot bodies, I have yet to find a model that will let me lock focus and recompose.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>Robert stated:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p> I doubt that they would have time to move the focus point and still capture those "decisive moments".</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Clearly, that's coming from someone that's never tried it. Yes, anticipation is required sometimes, but capturing the "decisive moment" means being ready by anticipating all the parameters of a shooting situation is part of being a mature photographer. Many simply use a small aperture to get deep DOF. If the photographter is going for bokeh in a candid situation and focusing on the eye is important, then having some means to get an AF point on the eye is going to be very important.</p>

<p>Experienced photographers should learn to control the AF, either by moving sectors or moving a single-point, without taking their eye from the VF. They should also know how to lock AF and recompose, also without moving their eyes from the VF. These are just a couple of tools of the advanced photographer. Learn both, practice both, and use the best for each situation that you're in. Don't say, "It'll never work" when you haven't even tried it.</p>

[philip_wilson]

Robert I was reacting to the statement you made when you said they would never end up with photos like these as clearly

they were all possible using techniques other than an off centre AF point. By the way they would have resorted to manual

focusing (not back button focusing). Indeed the Contax G2 is the only rangefinder I know that allows back button

focusing. Actually as David says you will be surprised how fast and effective manual focusing can be with practice.

Clearly it is not ideal for sports although I have shot hockey and ski racing with manual focus film cameras (Canon F1s).

The main problem with hockey was always speed as films (especially colour) were not that fast for dark arenas.

 

Can't help you and point and shoot cameras as I never bother with them because I have hated all the ones I have used

and just use an iPhone. I won a Nikon 1 system about 18 months ago and I use this as a point and shoot - it is small and

surprisingly good so long as you do not expect too much from it.

[keith reeder]

<blockquote>

<p>I doubt that they would have time to move the focus point and still capture those "decisive moments".</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I do it <em>all </em>the time, Robert - as David says, it's a skill to learn, but it's unquestionably doable. </p>

<p>These are just a few of thousands of examples I could provide of "seeing" the shot, deciding on and moving to the AF point (out of 19 in my 7D) that will give me the composition I want, getting focus and taking the shot:</p>

<p>http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_may_2013/gannets_bempton_3.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_may_2013/gannets_bempton_2.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_may_2013/gannet_bempton_10.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_may_2013/kittiwake_bempton_1.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_may_2013/fulmar_bempton_2.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/moto-x/moto-x_cambois_pn_22a.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/moto-x/moto-x_cambois_Lr_1b.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/moto-x/moto-x_cambois_20.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/moto-x/moto-x_cambois_21.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/moto-x/moto-x_cambois_11.jpg<br>

http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/images/croft_1200_24.jpg</p>

<p>In all of these the active AF point is away from the centre, and in circumstances where I had hardly any time at all to get the job done. Nothing clever about it, it's just another technique to learn if you shoot action; and anticipation - being able to read what's going on - is a big part of it. </p>

[dcstep]

<p>Nice shooting Keith.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>I'm slightly amused that the guys suggesting moving the AF point are shooting some of the most demanding subjects possible, birds in flight. Birds move fast and they tend to be relatively small and we're tending to use large telephoto lenses at fairly wide apertures (to get the SS that we need) that limit DOF. Experienced bird photographers look for eye sharpness that will stand up at 100% and 200% maginification, so merely turning on all the AF points and getting a sharp eye, just doesn't happen (it's still a dream of mine, but, for now, I haven't found that dream camera yet).</p>

<p>Like me, I suspect that Keith moved to steering a single-point or expanded single-point because he was demanding sharp eyes in his shots and not getting them with other techniques. There's nothing easy about shooting BIF, but you learn the techniques as you pursue the passion. You try this and it doesn't work, so you try something else and hone your skills. Simply raising a 1000mm lens to your eye and having it right on the bird takes lots of practice, but you can do it with the right amount of practice. I think that the 10,000-hour rule for mastery applies here. (I'm not there yet, but I'm getting more and more good results.)</p>

<p><a title="Ring-necked pheasant flies... by dcstep, on Flickr" href=" src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8235682024_a52a2d2da2_z.jpg" alt="Ring-necked pheasant flies..." width="640" height="427" /></a></p>

[Mike D]

<p>If I recall, many years ago, my Nikon D2H had close focus priority with single point autofocus. If you half press the shutter release with the single point on the moving subject, the single point stayed on the moving subject no matter where it went in the view finder. Additionally, if you were focused on a moving subject and something else briefly interferes with the scene, the camera didn't change focus to the interfering object but stayed ready to focus on your original subject. It was awesome. I don't know why Nikon got rid of this valuable feature. </p>

[dcstep]

<p>That sounds like a dream Michael. I'd love to try an AF system that could do that.</p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p><em>"Ian, I've been meaning to ask you about this because most of your portraits are with fast lenses wide open. Do you use group/pattern AF, or single AF point selected with the paddle or joystick?"</em><br>

<em><br /></em>Lex - I just single point AF and scroll around to the one I want. I've got to be pretty fast with it. <br>

<em> </em></p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Thanks, Ian. That's what I do with my D2H. It has only 11 AF points (really, only 9 full AF points) but when I'm out of practice I practice on my cats. Most of my photos are out of focus. I have no idea how you keep up with those kidlets scampering around while shooting wide open.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Michael, while I'm still impressed with the sheer speed of the D2H AF, the focus lock/tracking feature never seemed to work well for me. I tried it for school sports and crowd photos - it always feels like a kludge. I mostly use either continuous AF with group dynamic closest subject and release priority; or single servo, single AF sensor with focus priority for critical stuff.</p>

<p>The Nikon V1 AF is just as quick, with very capable tracking and face recognition - but it's difficult to estimate how accurate it is under tricky conditions with the 10-30 variable aperture zoom, due to deep DOF with the CX sensor. I'd like to test it with a fast lens but I wouldn't have much use for the 32mm f/1.2. I hoped Nikon would make a 14/1.2 but no luck so far.</p>

[Mike D]

<p>Lex, the moving subjects I was shooting were moving across the frame. I don't have any Nikon bodies that are particularly accurate with fast subjects coming straight at me under some conditions. Race cars coming at me, I can handle, ducks flying straight at me is very difficult. I always shoot at F8 which helps. </p>

[philip_wilson]

Lex. I was given a Nikon 1 kit but the fastest lens was the 18.5 F1.8 (50mm equivalent). From what I can tell the AF is

pretty fast but not hyper accurate. With a difficult moving subject in good light (e.g. Dogs playing) I get less than half the

keepers a Canon 1 series body would give me. In low light action (e.g. Ice hockey) it is even worse. Don't get me wrong

for what it is it is a great little camera and I like it a lot but it is not in the same league as a top sports body. This is hardly

surprising given the price difference.

[keith reeder]

<p>Michael, Closest Focus Priority didn't end with the D2H - it was a mode in the D200 bodies I used when I was a Nikon user too.</p>

<p>Didn't work worth a damn' in that body though.</p>

<p>My current camera - the Canon 7D - also has closest subject priority in some modes ("Zone", for example).</p>

<p>Doesn't work worth a damn' there either..!</p>

<p>I should add that against a clean background, Zone (another multi-AF point mode, for those who don't use a 7D) is <em>incredibly </em>good for BIFs - I've spent entire days shooting small, extremely fast birds like Puffins, Razorbills and Guillemots, either flying "down the pipe" at me, or passing across a clear sky, and not getting <em>anything</em> that was out of focus because of the AF not doing its job. </p>

<p>I wouldn't have been <em>anywhere near </em>as successful with a single-point mode.</p>

[Mike D]

<p>Keith, I'm going to have to try your method since I have not been totally satisfied with the single point, auto focus on several of my newer Nikons. I have very high success rates with surfing, football, and large moving objects but much less success with small, very fast moving subjects. I haven't used my D2H in years. </p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Closest subject priority AF works fine on the D2H. All the basic stuff works great. The only features that I found a bit lacking were subject tracking (even a $200 P&S can beat the D2H now in subject tracking AF) and that baffling option to disable tracking or lock on or something. There was an extensive discussion about that feature on Nikonians back in 2005, but I still wasn't able to make good use of it. However it can be demonstrated by putting the D2H into single servo AF and panning the camera around - it'll hunt and hunt trying to lock onto any object that's at the same distance as the initial subject distance it detected.</p>

<p>I hadn't used my D2H much for the past few years, other than a maternity shoot this past spring (and I got better results from that with my V1). But since adopting a dumpster kitty recently I've been trying the D2H again with the 50/1.8D AF Nikkor for some shallow DOF available light pix. Generally speaking I'm still finding the group dynamic AF a bit quicker and still precise enough in most situations. However the single AF modes do work better in impossible lighting - like EV 3 or so dim indoor lighting with low contrast subjects.</p>

<p>And I'm getting the hang again of using the thumb paddle to select the AF points/groups rather than center-focus-and-recompose. I do find it annoying on the V1 that it's center single AF only. Even the Ricoh GRD4 P&S digicam allows moving the single AF point around the frame as needed, although it's rather slow compared with the thumb paddle/joystick method on most dSLRs.</p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>I'm starting to get used to using the other points on my D700. I used focus and recompose for so many years that I just tend to use that method and not use the other points.</p>

[keith reeder]

<blockquote>

<p>Closest subject priority AF works fine on the D2H.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I envy the user of any camera that has a working implementation of the idea, Lex - it would make birds in flight exponentially easier. </p>

[songtsen]

<blockquote>

<p>I do find it annoying on the V1 that it's center single AF only.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Lex, I may have misunderstood your comment. Just thought I'd mention that the V1 allows you to move the AF point by pressing the OK button and using the arrow keys (or the wheel itself).</p>