New Monitor choice and QC advice for buyer

[ellery]

<p>So, I will be asking my wife to in part buy me a new monitor for my birthday in June.<br /><br />Had been researching more on the subject of what monitor type, size, etc....and narrowed in on what I think will serve my purposes - those being mostly for my own viewing pleasure, ease of editing, posting on the net in PN, facebook, and doing the occasional larger print for my wall or perhaps for family or close friends...<br /><br />Having said that, I ruled out wide-gamut....I think because I am unlikely to invest in a very expensive printer, I will stick to sRGB...my current printer (nothing fancy AT ALL) is an EPSON artisan 170....it makes what I percieve as "decent" prints for my purposes...but for nicer prints I will send off to a lab if I want it...I will not miss aRGB I think to be honest...I do not do like "fine art printing" or anything of that caliber so yeah...<br /><br />To the question of size, that is more of a cost factor to my understanding. <br /><br />My budget (for the monitor) is 700ish bucks (say 500-800).<br /><br />Having said that, I figured I would spring for a decent 27 inch standard gamut monitor.<br /><br />I have narrowed in on the Dell U2713, the Asus PB278Q, the Viewsonic VP2770, Samsung S27A850D.<br /><br />I will end up getting the equipement and software for calibration as well as I have yet to purchase this stuff...I have not researched this area much so far...am vaguely familiar with the options that are popular (x-rite, spider...) - not at all sure which one will suit my purposes (if you have an easy answer to this sub question, feel free and answer).<br /><br />Besides being new to such monitors, I am generally wary after reading about QC issues with these monitors per various reviews. Many folks talking about dead pixels, "hot" pixels, and the more regularly mentioned "back light bleeding"....and subsequent need to send that monitor back for refund/replacement.<br /><br />Are such stories simply more rare or is this something that is more notorious in these monitors? I understand in reading that some backlight bleeding is common and expected (seen in tft reviews). I guess my question is:<br /><br />Please advice of best practices for my own future inspection of such a new purchase and what to look out for.<br /><br />The wifey is ready to get me this nice gift, and I just want to make sure I pick up on any problems with it in order to send it back for replacement/refund.<br /><br />After reading the reviews, I guess I am a bit more drawn to the viewsonic or the Dell...but honestly...it seems they are all great monitors (if I avoid bad QC reviews from dell or asus)....there are fewer user reviews of the viewsonic on amazon....all of them were positive....<br /><br />Any advice appreciated - take care.</p>

[walter_degroot]

<p>be sure it si a led backlit monitor,'<br>

maby old flat screen monitors " go dark"<br>

this has been seen on old laptops.<br>

when a light is sinned on the screen everything can be<br>

seem. the Flouresent back light has aged or faded.<br>

or the circuit controlling it has failed.<br>

this will not occur with a moitior that has a led back light.</p>

<p>there is a new technology that is better but not in stores as yet.</p>

 

[ellery]

<p>the dell 2713 and viewsonic are LED backlit - I forget if the others were</p>

[digitaldog]

<p>Not only does the display not have to be a backlit LED, there's nothing at all special about such illuminants other than they use less energy (great for laptops) and LED's will last longer, not that CCFL Fluorescent's don't last a very long time. BOTH Fluorescent and LED's fade! Now an RGB LED? That's a big deal, expensive and as far as I know, few and far between. <br>

Here's the big deal about a well built RGB LED (albeit long gone from the market which does say something about the cost to do this correctly):<br>

http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200602_neclcddisplay.pdf<br>

There are only two, maybe three manufacturers in the world who make all LCD panels. And Dell isn't one of them. Ideally you want an IPS display panel and ideally what is called a <em>smart display system</em> where the electronics control the entire calibration process with matted software and an instrument. We're talking NEC SpectraView II or Eizo and yes, they cost more. But if your goal is a display that can be precisely calibrated and done easily (set the target, put the puck on screen, walk away), they can't be beat. You can build a suite of calibrations such that you are better soft proofing a matt paper with a low contrast ratio today, another calibration for a glossy paper with a high contract ratio tomorrow. </p>

<p>Don't skimp here, the display is probably the most important component in the digital darkroom (assuming you have some desire for a bit of WYSIWYG).</p>

[ellery]

<p>the dell is an LG panel....IPS<br /><br />define "cost more"<br /><br />the monitor discussed in that article was 6,000 bucks :O - too much for me<br /><br />Is there an NEC monitor that you are advocating in specific....<br /><br />Are the models I am looking at not capable of getting as close to I need to achieve WYSIWYG?<br /><br />Im not sure for my hobbyist purposes, that a super high end monitor is of value to me....but at the same time, my budget is flexible enough to consider other options if the investment would be worth it....</p>

[digitaldog]

<blockquote>

<p>Is there an NEC monitor that you are advocating in specific....</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Any of the PA series (I have two PA271W).</p>

[ellery]

<p>that series looks great.....but do I really want/need wide gamut monitor?<br /><br />I guess these have an sRGB emulation mode for better otherwise general use.<br /><br />I will say that this monitor will almost entirely be used for viewing and editing photos....so I guess that would be fine, but if most all of my output will be sRGB then what is the point?</p>

[digitaldog]

<blockquote>

<p>that series looks great.....but do I really want/need wide gamut monitor?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Only if you want to see more of the image content that exceeds sRGB (and lot's does):<br>

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut<br>

A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.<br>

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov<br />Low Res (YouTube):

<p>NOT all your output is sRGB as explained above. There are NO sRGB output devices other than a CRT display circa early 1990!</p>

[ellery]

<p>watched your video....very interesting!<br /><br />let me ask you this though:<br /><br />With my current printer (epson artisan 170, it was cheap, like 150 bucks) - is the printer's gamut wider than sRGB? Would I tell any difference?<br /><br />On the other hand, I am trying to do more printing, and participation in my local camera club this year, so being able to great prints will be important. Also, I do like the wide gamut because I do mostly shoot in RAW and would love (for my own pleasure at the very minimum) to view and edit these RAW photos with a wide gamut display....<br /><br />I guess besides my needing possibly? to buy a different printer this year, I could find a lab that could print .....my neighbor owns a print shop actually and if he has some quality printers, I could go there and print on his gear for nearly free (hes a great guy). <br /><br />The meme out there seems to be that most output devices are more narrow than sRGB or if not, very very close....but your video seems to take a pretty big whack at that meme...although your printer profile used was the 3880....<br /><br />Put simply, I am just trying to stress test these arguments, because I fear that wide gamut for me is almost entirely superfluous unless I am using certain output devices? <br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />--------<br /><br />Also a fine option is the PA series 24 inch....with spectraview its right at 1,000 bucks...I was willing to spend 800 on a 27 inch standard gamut THEN a couple hundred more for calibration stuff....but the PA 24 inch w/ calibration hardware/software included is about the same for my budget...so that seems nearly a no brainer.....<br /><br />Now if I spring for the 27 inch NEC PA seris (tempting, :D) - then I am really stressing the budget...looking then at 1300 bucks (monitor + calibration stuff).<br /><br />--------<br /><br />the 24 incher is quite tempting....<br /><br />How is such a monitor in windows 7 for general net use, for putting photos on the net and viewing photos on the net...im assuming you can easily tweak such a monitor to not make such use look crazy?</p>

[digitaldog]

<blockquote>

<p>With my current printer (epson artisan 170, it was cheap, like 150 bucks) - is the printer's gamut wider than sRGB? Would I tell any difference?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Probably yes in some colors in color space. I'd need an ICC profile from it after which I could plot the size in comparison to sRGB just like in the video.</p>

[digitaldog]

<p>If you shoot raw, and if you're using an Adobe processor, you're using ProPhoto RGB gamut there. Might as well stay there, then funnel down to sRGB who's only real use is for web or on-screen viewing. </p>

[ellery]

<p>I thought of just that, but have not the foggiest how to get the ICC profile?</p>

[ellery]

<p>also reading some of the arguments you participated in regarding wide gamut vs. standard on the adobe community forum....enlightening stuff...<br /><br />A few hobbyist photogs I know on facebook have been very quick to dismiss the utlility of wide gamut for me...ill quote the reply here for arguments sake:<br /><br />"Keep this in mind, no matter what you see on-screen, your output medium is print. If you want wide gamut cause its a fun toy, great. Otherwise, the only major reason to get it is if you hand-develop a worthwhile amount of HDR. And in that case, I wouldrecommend a second, standard gamut monitor for the final step processing, and proofing. Because again, there's no point in adjusting for screen, unless you're planning to display for screen. Calculate the cost difference of a wide gamut monitor and a standard monitor (and cables, and another video card if that's necessary). Subtract from that the cost of your preferred standard monitor. See what else you can think of to spend that difference on."<br /><br />Now that I have read a bit more on this topic, this reply makes little sense.<br /><br />The only bit of skepticism I have left now, is that "well yes, there is color data I would use, but a) will I notice and b) will the cost of this be worth the investment to me?"<br /><br />Especially more important, is that even if my current printer (not to mention some upgrade I am likely to spring for in the next year or so) whacks off a "decent" amount of color data, then that seems a waste of the RAW data and possibly influencing the end result as such...<br /><br />Having watched your video and all the examples of different images and how they appear and the data lost (the sunset image I found particularly alarming) - I can see how the wide gamut argument has weight.</p>

[digitaldog]

<blockquote>

<p><em>If you want wide gamut cause its a fun toy, great. Otherwise, the only major reason to get it is if you hand-develop a worthwhile amount of HDR.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p><em> </em><br>

Whoever wrote that doesn't understand either or both gamut and HDR as one has nothing to do with the other. <br>

<br>

FWIW, at least with the SpectraView wide gamut displays, one can emulate sRGB. You can have both! </p>

[digitaldog]

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>I thought of just that, but have not the foggiest how to get the ICC profile?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>On Mac, the ColorSync utility lists all installed profiles. Usually Epson installs them with the driver (deep in a package). </p>

 

 

[ellery]

<p>"If you shoot raw, and if you're using an Adobe processor, you're using ProPhoto RGB gamut there. Might as well stay there, then funnel down to sRGB who's only real use is for web or on-screen viewing."<br /><br />Seems legit....<br /><br /><br />Im increasingly convinced....<br /><br />B-day is in june, so ill continue to ponder this question....</p>

[ellery]

<p>"Usually Epson installs them with the driver (deep in a package). "<br /><br />silly question, but you mean it was originally deep within the original packaging? If so, that crap is likely quite gone...<br /><br />How can I now get an ICC profile for this printer....may be moot point though...my guess is, is that if I am wanting to make quality BW and color prints, this may be insufficient for me....ie need an upgrade...it does have like 6 inch cartridges...but not sure if that in of itself says much about quality of final print...surely cost of the printer and underlying technology will be more reflective of that?<br /><br />I would think a 5 year old 150 dollar printer at this point will be silly sitting next to my new PC and NEC PA display, lol....that is, it may be worth investing this year in a new printer....will ask for one for xmas perhaps :)</p>

[digitaldog]

<p>No, deep in the system folder. <br>

When you print (wherever you're printing), does the application and/or driver even allow you to select a profile?</p>

[ellery]

<p>Im not at home currently...Ill have to tinker with it tonight and see if I can find it...would be interesting to see it compared to sRGB...thanks for your help so far..ill provide that info this evening....<br /><br />What is your thoughts on 24 inch vs. 27 inch NEC PA...27 inch offers higher resolution and obviously more real estate for easier viewing/editing....obviously at a cost though...<br /><br />Do these NEC panels have a longer life than the lower cost panels? Seems like I could make the argument to myself to help further justify the higher cost if the lifespan of this monitor is even longer than one that is 400 bucks cheaper...well, at least in part. You think?</p>

[ellery]

<p>on an unrelated note Andrew, you seem to be quite the guru on this subject on the interwebs :)<br /><br />Its fascinating to see you challenge incorrect information on various threads and the reactions by others....lol....</p>

[digitaldog]

<blockquote>

<p>Do these NEC panels have a longer life than the lower cost panels?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Doubt it. What they do tell you is the number of hours used, if the display isn't fully warmed up etc.</p>

[ellery]

<p>24 vs. 27 inch? You think I should sping for the 27?<br /><br />purchasing on amazon is legit I suppose...most people who order these get them via mail? I would hate for it to get f'ed up in transit? Packaging I presume from NEC should be adequate?<br /><br />I presume also that if I have a problem with the monitor a) amazon will accept a return pretty easy, and/or b) NEC will be helpful as well.<br /><br />any suggestions for processes to do myself for looking for quality problems when I do get the monitor?<br /><br />--------<br /><br />Also, at the moment, I use Capture NX2 - plan on delving into more so photoshop in the coming year or so...but it is safe to say that with capture NX2, the wide gamut NEC panel will be still be useful for the same reasons discussed (although I understand PS does perhaps many many things NX2 will not do).<br /><br />Thanks for your advice so far....its going to be a happy B-day :D</p>

[ellery]

<p>also this blew my mind<br /><br /><a href="http://www.afximages.com/articles.php?article=WorkingColorProfile">http://www.afximages.com/articles.php?article=WorkingColorProfile</a><br /><br /></p>

[ellery]

<p>kinda (at this point) thinks the PA241 w/ spectraview II will be what ill have the wifey get for me....400-500 bucks more for the 27 inch....a bit superfluous (for me) - I can pocket that money towards a printer upgrade....but I have a month to think it out still and see how the monies come together...<br /><br /><br /></p>

[Nick D.]

<p>NEC with spectra view is really good for professional work, if you can afford it, go fort it.<br>

But for purposes you mentioned in your original post, do you really need it?<br>

For the same money you can get LG IPS monitor, ColorMunki Display calibrator and good Epson printer.<br>

Just my 2 cents.</p>