Sinar/Canon EOS combination?

[dhbebb]

<p>It has struck me that there is no theoretical reason why I shouldn't rivet a Nikon lens to Canon EOS body adapter onto a Sinar lens panel and use my Sinar Norma for digital tilt/shift shots (probably with a lens of at least 150 mm, maybe 210). Before I actually make the adapter I thought I would ask if anyone has tried this and if it worked - in particular, whether an LF lens (Symmar-S) gives acceptable results with a full-frame digital sensor? All info gratefully received!</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

I haven't tried it using a DSLR, have tried it using a Hasselblad behind my Sinars. But a colleague has used a Canon adapter and a Canon (1Ds, or what are they called?) behind his Sinars. We were talking about it last saturday (discussing the lack of digital options for 4x5" cameras that make as much use of the format as possible, how the BetterLight scanning backs probably are the best option, but no longer 'made', very much in demand, and hence expensive. The PhaseOne scanning backs BetterLight took as a starting point are also good, but not quite as good.)<br>Our experiences using SLR-body adapters were more or less the same: the DSLR (and Hasselblad) body's mirror housing will vignet, restricting the amount of movement you can use. It comes down to the Sinar not being much more than a macro-bellows for your DSLR. Very little tilt or shift.<br>He continues to use his scanning backs. I continue to scan film. The adapters are left somewhere to gradually disappear beneath a layer of dust.

[dhbebb]

<p>Thanks QG. I figured I would not be able to use much back movement without vignetting, particularly as I will have to interpose a short extension tube between the adapter and the DSLR camera to cater for the bulge of the pentaprism. Also, I was doubtful whether the CCD would like light coming at it from a large off-axis angle. But I did think I could get away with a little front swing and tilt – I think I’ll try it but not expect too much!</p>

[indrek_r_nkla]

<p>Another negative aspect is the amount of dust and dirt that the sensor will be susceptible to. All the stuff in the bellows will be floating around and some of it will end up on sensor. It also happens with film but You do not re-use it. As small apertures are used at LF generally and with this multishot combo especially to compensate for unintentional movement when shifting, all the speckles will be visible on image and Your EOS body will contain more particles post-shooting than it has used to do.<br>

I have experimented with an adapter for Nikon D50 but never had my equipment stable enough to produce satsifactory stitchable component slides. </p>

 

[ian_gordon_bilson]

<p>An alternative I have used,with some success,is to use a monorail (Horseman 4x5) as a focusing rail,with a DSLR mounted on a plate where the film back would normally live.<br>

You then get the precision side-to-side,back to front ,up & down adjustments the view camera offers,and,with a decent macro lens; in my case a D90 with Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8,in conjunction with Microsofts ICE,a pretty good ,multi-MB file.<br>

At a rough guess,you may find the I.Q of a large format lens a little underwhelming,but,please,share your results if you try this.</p>

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>The Nikon lenses you're thinking of using are probably telephoto lenses and as such you might have problems getting them close enough to the back of the camera. That is to say, their flange to film distance is shorter than their marked focal length. How will you control the f/stops on the Nikon lenses?<br>

Another potential problem will be that the lenses won't have a large enough image circle to allow any movements.<br>

The digital body on the back of your Sinar will work with some drawbacks. IE, large format, or medium format for that matter, lenses won't have the resolution of your digital lenses.<br>

As Indrek points out, dust and crud getting into the camera will be an issue as well.<br>

Are you mounting you Nikon body on the back of the Sinar, if so just use your lf lenses. You'll lose some sharpness, but depending on your needs it might be perfectly acceptable.<br>

JD</p>

[steve_mareno1]

<p>It's not gonna work w/ the Nikon lenses, as Joseph stated. You'd have to have the back element the same distance from the sensor as it is on the camera in normal DSLR mode. Impossible. I see photos from setups all the time using digital SLRS with bellows cameras, but they usually have the LF shutter and lens on them. Here's some people that may be able to give definitive answers, but my own inclination is why not just shoot the LF camera w/ the film that it takes? The results are bound to be so much better.</p>

<p>http://www.camerafusion.com/index.html</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Nikon was mentioned, was it not, as one end of a Nikon-lens-to-Canon-camera adapter that could be used to create a Canon mount board for the 4x5" Sinar. The lens end of the adapter would not be used. No Nikon lenses. The OP talked about using LF lenses such as a Schneider Symmar-S.<br>Which would work, with no to a very moderate amount of movements.<br><br>I agree with Steve that using film behind the Sinar gives better results. But it does involve handling and processing, and scanning or printing, film, and sometimes it would be nice to have a digital solution for LF, and a tilt and shift solution for (D)SLRs.

[joseph_dickerson]

<p>Q.G., you're correct, but I am apparently not the only one to mis-read the OP. However, I think I still answered his question(s).<br>

I did fail to mention that there are tons of such adapters available on eBay for not a lot of money. Even if David considers his time worthless I think he'd be better off just buying one of the things.<br>

Some recent adapters I've seen listed will allow the camera body to move vertically and horizontally, making "tiling" for digital stitching very simple.<br>

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.<br>

JD</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>Thanks once again for responses. The reason why I was thinking of using a Nikon/Canon adapter was that it has a relatively wide flat flange which would be easy to drill through - the "Nikon" side would be in contact with a Sinar lens board fitted to the rear of the camera, no actual Nikon lens would be used.<br>

Good point about watching out for dust - not such much of a problem for me, since I vacuum-clean the inside of my LF bellows regularly - always a good idea, prevents lots of trouble.<br>

As regards "make or buy", I already have a Sinar panel with the right sized hole and a Nikon/Canon adapter, so all it would take would be five minutes to clamp the two together and drill three holes (probably consuming a couple of carbide-tipped drill bits going through stainless steel and duralumin!). The deal-breaker would probably be the optical performance of my Symmar-S - Schneider apparently finds it necessary to offer special digital lenses even for LF, so using an old lens to cover 24x36 mm may be asking too much! </p>

[francisco_salaquanda]

<p>A Nikon lens can be used. Just not a 35mm but a Nikon LF lens. Along with Schneider and Rodenstock, LF lenses are inexpensive.</p>

<p>You want digital capture in LF? 4x5 sensor backs are available as you say, but selling two houses to buy one and handling the 800mb image files require serious processing power. But there is an easier solution. Its called film. And those amongst us who have looked at a 4x5, 8x10 colour slide on a light box knows what colours and resolution can be had. You can buy LF field cameras for a song at the moment. A good lens might go $800 and an Epson scanner maybe the same. Even with all that its still cheaper than a D800.</p>

<p>So go that way and play with the grown-ups in LF territory and start reading Outdoor Photographer. Its a whole different world...more like an Aladdins Cave of image resolution where the results test you and success is wonderful.</p>

<p> </p>

[dhbebb]

<p><em>But there is an easier solution. Its called film.</em><br>

Francisco, you don't know me, but I am a semi-retired pro photographer with many years of experience with LF studio photography. Despite being semi-retired, I still have 4x5 and 8x10 Sinar Normas and 4x5 Crown and Speed Graphics, which I use from time to time. <br>

<em>... play with the grown-ups in LF territory and start reading Outdoor Photographer.</em><br>

Remarks like this make me laugh too much to be angry, but being patronised is the last thing I need!</p>

[tjfuss]

<p>David, I've done something like this in three different iterations now. The first (low budget version) was a Calumet 4x5 with most of the rear standard removed. I fabricated a mount and bag bellows to couple a Canon 5DII body. I used various medium and large format lenses on the front. It was particularly useful for front tilt when doing table-top product photography. Yes, shifts tended to be limited.</p>

<p>The second version was a big upgrade... a Cambo Ultima 35 with the same 5DII attached. Still a wide range of lenses in play - with or without shutters.</p>

<p>Finally, I've added a Leaf Aptus back and use lenses with shutters and flash sync to trigger the back. This combination yields all of the movements I could want since there's no mirror box to cause vignetting. Sadly, it's a heavy rig - especially after adding the geared tripod head! I won't be backpacking with it.</p>

<p>I have some photos of the first two versions on my Flickr photostream in a set labeled "hybrid / tandem camera" at <a href="http://www.flickr.com/tjfuss/">www.flickr.com/tjfuss/</a></p>

 

[dhbebb]

<p>Timothy, thanks for that. As I understand it, you used "normal" LF lenses with these set-ups? Just for info - this is a picture from a series I did a while ago with my Sinar on 4x5 b+w film (the pic was then computer colored). This is just the sort of shot where it is very hard to get enough DOF just by stopping down but very easy with some (not much) front swing movement. I am trying to replicate this shot and others like it.</p>

<div></div>

[dhbebb]

<p>Just one last question: I presume this<br>

<a href="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS-To-Linhof-Sinar-Toyo-Wista-Horseman-Cambo-Arca-4x5-/400486795452?pt=UK_Photography_Viewfinders_Eyecups&hash=item5d3edf88bc">http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS-To-Linhof-Sinar-Toyo-Wista-Horseman-Cambo-Arca-4x5-/400486795452?pt=UK_Photography_Viewfinders_Eyecups&hash=item5d3edf88bc</a><br>

is what one poster was referring to (there seems to be a slightly fancier version with a shift capability in one direction, but as the adapter seems to be built to the Graflok standard, once it's in place, you can use all the shifts you want on the camera back). As long as I don't have to buy a digital lens such as <br>

<a href="http://www.teamworkphoto.com/schneider-150mm-digitar-lens-copal-p-12154.html?osCsid=5674a4a2e37ce53d4a38ad527079f82d">http://www.teamworkphoto.com/schneider-150mm-digitar-lens-copal-p-12154.html?osCsid=5674a4a2e37ce53d4a38ad527079f82d</a><br>

for $2,500, it might well be worth a try! Thanks once again to all who responded!</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<i>'once it's in place, you can use all the shifts you want on the camera back"</i><br>If only that DSLR mirror box would not be there to vignette.<br>You can use shift, but not as much as you would possibly like.

[dhbebb]

<p><em>You can use shift, but not as much as you would possibly like.</em><br>

True - I would envisage using only front movements, I just meant that I couldn't see the point of putting a shift movement on the adapter when you already had this on the camera. Might of course be useful with a Speed Graphic or similar.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

There are premade connector panels for Horseman and Sinar cameras. Tried that. Very clumsy and limiting.

 

For awhile a guy in London was making an adapted bellows and mount for Sinar P/P2 cameras so you could attach the

camera directly to the bellows and the camera body to the P/P2 function carrier. This worked very nicely as it overcame a

lot of the problems posed by the added distance you need in the space that would go between the DSLR body and the

plate... But you still were limited by the depth of mirror box. Best lens range was from 90 to 210mm however wants you

started shifting or tilting either the front (lens) or the DSLR body, you quickly ran into vignetting (this was with a Canon

EOS 1Ds Mark II. Also the vast majority of view camera lenses don't match the resolution a decent DSLR these days

produces.

 

The best solution I tried was the Calumet ULTIMA35 and Schneider and Rodenstock lenses designed for the purpose.

 

There is the Calumet Ultima35 which

[dhbebb]

<p><em>The best solution I tried was the Calumet ULTIMA 35 ...</em><br>

I'm sure it was, but it comes at a heck of price - $4,781.99. Considering that most pros these days will have a high-end digital DSLR anyway, I would think most would opt for a tilt-and-shift lens for this rather than buy an Ultima, a very fine but very specialized and expensive piece of kit.</p>

 

[ellis_vener_photography]

Here's some more reading to do on the workings of view camera / DSLR hybrid designs.

 

There's one thing that has not been mentioned yet: only a very, very few view camera chassis have fine enough

movements to work with the precious you need with a 24x36mm (or smaller) imaging area. They were engineered to

move a mass of much larger area mass that is centered above or near the swing and tilt axis.

 

People who use DSLRs as video also run into this mechanical problem using many fluid tripod heads that were designed

for bigger,heavier, and larger camera/lens packages

[q.g._de_bakker]

Whether i can tilt a camera's back, or a tripod's head, with some precision does not really depend on what frame size is used to capture the image, or what the bit of hardware is that is containing, framing that frame. I don't think, nor have i ever experienced, that view cameras would have any problem coping with a (D)SLR (heavier than these camera's regular spring backs with groundglass) hanging off their backs.<br>Are tripod heads different? If they can move a large movie or video camera smoothly and with some precision, they can do the same with a small DSLR on top.

[john_jovic]

<p>Hi David, sorry if I'm repeating previous answers as I only skimmed the replies.<br /><br />I've used Canon 1ds2 and 5d2 bodies on the back on Sinar P and F. It all works fine but it depends on what you want/expect. I've generally used the gear for product shots and the setup, especially with a Sinar P, works great and I've been very happy with it.<br /><br />I made my own adapter, which you can kind of see in the image below. It's an M42/EF adapter bolted to a lens board with a total of approx. 1" offset.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.johnjovic.com/temp/Sinar/sinar_1ds2.jpg" alt="" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.johnjovic.com/temp/Sinar/Sinar_5d2.jpg" alt="" /><br /><br />I tend to use enlarging lenses with it, stuff like Schneider Componon-s lenses work well at the right magnifications and are fairly inexpensive.<br /><br />The focal length you're limited to depends on the application. You might not get infinity with an 80mm lens, depending also on the lens design, but if using it for macro/products, then it's less of an issue. A recessed lens board obviously helps. I tend to use lenses in the 125-135 range. IIRC, the Sironar-N 150/5.6 get infinity with not problems at all, but I find enlarging lenses better for close range work than the Sironar-N.<br /><br />Overall it's a cumbersome setup so unless you intend using it for product/macro or simply to use lenses that are otherwise too hard to adapt to a Canon, then I'd look at easier options. For example, a Nikon PB-4 does a lot of the stuff I can do with the Sinars and is smaller/lighter to use. It doesn't replace a Sinar but I find most times I don't need to. It's worth building a cheap adapter for the Sinar, or buying one on Evilbay. You have nothing to loose.</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>Thanks John J. I was going to make a adapter like yours, I have the parts, but as my old workshop has been demolished and the new one won’t be ready for weeks, I decided to buy a ready-made:<br>

<a href="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400486795452?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649">http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400486795452?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649</a><br>

My only doubt as whether regular view camera lenses would give a high enough IQ – your statement that you use lenses in the 125-135 range encourages me, since that puts my 135 Nikkor-W in the frame (I presume with a bag bellows)– if I had to go to a 150, I have only one, a Symmar-S (which is great for film but I didn’t know about digital). I don’t think the set-up will be too cumbersome – I’m not going out of the studio!</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>Non-digital lenses do not deliver the best results as they are designed for film at smaller apertures then digital lenses, have lower resolution, greater distortion and their color curves are not as good. Additionally analog lenses were made for a medium that sags, digital sensors do not sag. Film has several layers of emulsion, digital is one pixel thick. Lastly the light rays that pass through a digital lens strike the pixels on a digital sensor differently then the rays through an analog lens so the edges of the pixels are more evenly illuminated with a digital lens.<br /><br />Also bear in mind analog lenses reach optimal aperture at f22 and that small an aperture will be well into diffraction on your size sensor. That is why the digital lenses reach optimal aprerture at f8 to 11. So using film lenses at optimal apertures on digital backs will always lead to degraded images due to diffraction.<br>

There are also significant problems with what you are trying to do. A normal focal length for a 35mm camera is between 45 and 50mm but your adapter + the Sinar 45 body, even with a WA bellows, will make using a lens this short on your set-up very difficult, if not impossible to use. Especially if you need to use movements. Wide angle digital lenses range from 23mm to 40mm and you will not be able to use them. You should have adequate movement capability on longer lenses but your ability to do movements will be hampered by the mirror box of the camera + the adapter as these make a tunnel before the sensor. So full movements will not be possible due to mechanical cutoff from that "tunnel".<br>

Your lenses from your digital camera will not work at infinity or at anything less then macro since the Sinar plus the adapter will extend the flange focal length so they can not reach infinity. And the adapter alone would also do the same thing.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

Bob knows lenses!