5D2 + 580EX II - fill in flash.

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Firstly,<strong> I am truly embarrassed to have to ask this question.</strong> I consider myself to be a very experienced photographer and rarely have trouble with any part of the techniques required. However, I very rarely use flash. In fact, I use it so rarely that I literally have no idea where I put my 580EX... I'll have to start looking for it soon. </p>

<p>Anyway, I have the unfortunate task of photographing a friend's wedding soon... a task I always dread. For this wedding and location I am going to need to use fill in flash quite a lot (indoors and outdoors). Whilst I am perfectly comfortable using flash as the main source of light indoors, I have little experience of fill-in.</p>

<p>What I need to know is the ideal setting to have the 580 on so that I can get decent fill-in flash results in most lighting conditions, especially outdoors in bright light. I am guessing I will need to put it into high speed sync mode so that it will work at all shutter speeds. Obviously this will be essential when shooting with a wide aperture in bright light.</p>

<p>Any simple tips or guidance you wedding snappers can offer?</p>

<p>Obviously I am going to have an hour or so practicing with fill-in flash before the big day but would like some input and to know of any possible pitfalls to help me out.<br>

:-)</p>

<p> </p>

[jaydesi]

<p>If you put it on high speed sync and shoot in Av or Tv modes, the camera will use the flash as fill only at all shutter speeds. Of course, you can adjust exposure compensation and the flash compensation as needed. If you shoot in manual, you'll have to adjust the power on the flash yourself for each shooting condition, as the camera will try to make it the main source of light.</p>

<p> </p>

[devon_mccarroll]

I'm a bit confused, since you said you so rarely use your 580 EX that you don't even know where it is, but then you mentioned that you're

comfortable with indoor flash. Fill flash is just low powered flash to add a bit of light vs a lot.

Although I'm not a Canon shooter (I use Nikon), I can offer at least some basic advice.

It's best to do any kind of flash, even fill, with your flash off camera, but I know this isn't really possible at a wedding in a lot of cases. As

for outdoors, bright light, especially direct sunlight, is very harsh and flat, so hopefully you have somewhere with some shade or indirect

light. Then you could just have an assistant hold a reflector for fill and not use a flash at all. Best case is actually an overcast day, since it

acts like a large softbox overhead. When shooting the static group shots, use a tripod if you can.

Also, even though this is a friend, don't be afraid to say no if you don't want to do something, especially a wedding. Not only is a wedding

a one time thing that you absolutely must get right, but if you're dreading it, it's going to show in your work.

Do you have backup equipment in case of any failures?

[serguei_fenev]

<p>Hi Jamie,<br>

Make sure the Camera (5DII) has Custom Function C.Fn I-7 (Exposure/Flash sync. speed in Av mode) set to 0 (Auto). With this setting the flash will be working in fill-in mode when you shoot in Av. <br>

Serguei</p>

[serguei_fenev]

<p>In addition, please keep in mind that camera will set the shutter speed based on ambient light and that, depending on the available light (especially indoors), could be slow and in such affecting the sharpness of your shot or revealing subject motion.</p>

<p>Serguei</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>What I need to know is <strong><em>the ideal setting</em></strong> to have the 580 on <strong><em>so that I can get decent fill-in flash results in most lighting conditions, especially outdoors in bright light.</em></strong> I am guessing I will need to put <strong><em>it into high speed sync mode so that it will work at all shutter speeds. Obviously this will be essential when shooting with a wide aperture in bright light.</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />A few points –</p>

<p>1. A formula for: “<strong><em>Ideal Setting . . . Decent Flash Fill in most lighting conditions outdoors</em></strong>”<br />There is no IDEAL- I can give you a "best bet" - about 80% hit rate . . . <br />Use Camera Mode set to “P” Mode and Flash Mode to full Auto E-TTL II.<br />Use Direct Camera Mounted Flash.<br />Shoot in Landscape Orientation.</p>

<p>2. You might not like to use that formula.<br />With a bit of work (practice) combined with what I glean is your knowledge base, I suggest you could use M Mode and Flash in E-TTL II and ride the Flash Exposure Compensation to suit the lighting and the scene.<br />You will need to practice though - more than just an hour or so, on the day.</p>

<p>3. Outdoors in bright light, the BIG issue is going to be your SD (Shooting Distance) . . .<br />IF you have the Flash<strong><em> mounted on the camera</em></strong>, then your MAXIMUM SD will be DETERMINED by the EFFECTIVE POWER (in distance) of the Flash’s capacity to act as a fill light.<br />For a 580, you will have a Max SD of around 8ft to 12 ft (3~4mtrs), working in sunlight.</p>

<p>4. Selecting HSS )depending upon the lighting scenario), you can lose up to 40% (maybe more) of that Flash Power – so that makes your effective SD, even shorter.</p>

<p><br />5. Research the Wedding & Events Forum - search“Flash as Fill” “Fill Flash” “Flash Outdoors” etc . . . Take note of any posts by Nadine Ohara.<br /><a href="/wedding-photography-forum/00GFuJ">This should get you started.</a></p>

<p>WW</p>

[dan_south]

With all due respect, it's like saying that you've been hired to cater your friend's wedding reception and you want the ideal

setting for the stove. It depends on what you're going to make.

 

As a super rough suggestion: P mode with auto ISO up to 3200, auto white balance, use exposure compensation to

compensate for light and dark scenes, I.e. dominate by either a wedding dress or dark tuxedos. ETTL setting on the

flash. Use flash compensation and dial it down when you're close to your subjects, up for group shots. Bring lots of

batteries. Watch out for reflections in glasses. Watch out for shadows of heads on the wall behind the heads. Keep it

simple because you have to work fast. And PRACTICE before the event.

 

There's so much more - using manual flash settings to blend flash with ambient light, directional lighting and off camera

flash, bounce flash, modifiers, reflectors, knowing when not to use flash, high speed flash sync for fill flash in bright

sunlight.

[travismcgee]

<p>Shortly after I got into photography I was asked to shoot an acquaintance's wedding. I had a nice camera, so I must be a good photographer, right? I was awful and the photos are terrible! I've worked on them several times since, but they're still terrible. On the other hand, I went to a wedding last summer and they hired a true professional wedding photographer and the photos are great. I'm just sayin'....</p>

 

[james_turner6]

<p>Get a copy of Syl Arena's book, "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlites". It covers all you could possibly need to know in terms of using flash; it is not specifically a wedding photographer's handbook, but it is specific to the 580 EX II. It is also very well written.</p>

[travismcgee]

<p>Agreed. I just finished reading it and Syl's book is very good, although the photos he uses to illustrate his points aren't all that great. (A very dangerous comment considering how quickly the critique of Phil Greenspun's work mysteriously disappeared!)</p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Thank you all so much for all your advice (and criticism) :-) It has been a big help. </p>

<p>I don't want you all to think of me as an amateur with a decent camera who thinks he can shoot weddings. That's not the case. I genuinely am an experienced photographer who can handle most subjects. Although I dread shooting weddings, I go through that pain for family and very good friends, especially those who cannot afford a professional wedding pro. I have shot a few weddings in the past (mostly without using flash) and the results were at least on a par or better than much of the work I have seen from the pros who work in my local area. I couldn't compete with the best, but I can certainly give the average Joe a run for his money. Obviously I have the necessary backup gear and most possible disaster scenarios taken into account. I am not just Uncle Bob with the nice DSLR.</p>

<p>I will primarily be shooting in my usual Av mode and it sounds as though I will be leaving the 580 in high speed sync mode most of the time. Only in any dark interior scenes will I light the full shot with flash (bounced wherever possible).</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<p>I would advise that, while in transitional lighting, you shoot in Tv. The reason is that despite it's spec sync speed of 1/200, at 1/200, users fairly frequently have problems with flash banding (I now I've had it happen, but only sporadically). </p>

<p>I would suggest that when you want more power than the 580 in HSS is able to provide (say indoors, with some light, but when you want to bounce a bit), but it is still light enough ambient to give you exposures @ or above~ 1/160 (in Av.), switching to Tv (for that transistional area/time) can give more reliable results. </p>

<p>I've had that problem a few times, and the banding is sometimes situationally dependent, lens dependent, or position dependent (and a bit unpredictable frankly). Instead, I prefer to take the hit on aperture (and DOF and bokeh) to control my shutter speed, keeping it @ or below 1/160. Flash banding is a hot mess in post to fix, considering how much you are getting paid ;-) I'd advise avoiding it if possible.</p>

[tudor_apmadoc]

<p>My suggestion :</p>

<p>Between now and the wedding - get someone to play "model" try using the 580 in various scenarios</p>

<ul>

<li>Dark Indoor room</li>

<li>Bright Indoor room</li>

<li>Night outdoor setting</li>

<li>Daytime outdoor setting</li>

</ul>

<p>Have them put on a dark jacket / coat with a white shirt to see how well it handles that kind of situation.</p>

[james_turner6]

<blockquote>

<p>Only in any dark interior scenes will I light the full shot with flash (bounced wherever possible).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ah, well for any <em>interior</em> scene I would tend to want to take the flash off the camera altogether (though bounced can be OK if the ceilings/walls are an OK colour) and try to keep it lined up with the bride's nose (or you'll get those awful shadows). If you <em>are</em> going to leave the flash on the camera, at the very least get a Stofen diffuser (which cost about 15 bucks). You could also consider gelling the light slightly orange (say a quarter-cut CTO). YMMV.</p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<blockquote>

<p>I would advise that, while in transitional lighting, you shoot in Tv. The reason is that despite it's spec sync speed of 1/200, at 1/200, users fairly frequently have problems with flash banding (I now I've had it happen, but only sporadically).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks Marcus, that is a very good tip. I must remember that for the indoor areas.</p>

<p>Thanks Tudor, I do plan to try a few brief tests using wifey over the next few days.</p>

<p>Thanks James. I am fairly confident about managing the shots that will be solely lit using flash. Lucky for me, I run a photo equipment supply business and have the entire range of Sto-Fen and Lumiquest products to hand, along with Rosco gels and just about every other cable and ancillary I would ever need. This is a rare case when availability of gear is not the problem. :-)</p>

[robert_turner5]

<p>William W, I wonder if I'm confused (most likely)- I would have assumed that shooting in AV would result in exposure being made for ambient lighting with the subject benefitting from fill. I took that to mean "P" mode exposes more for the flash, resulting in generally darker backgrounds. Is my thought process flawed here?</p>

<p> </p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>"William W, I wonder if I'm confused (most likely)- I would have assumed that shooting in AV would result in exposure being made for ambient lighting with the subject benefitting from fill. I took that to mean "P" mode exposes more for the flash, resulting in generally darker backgrounds. Is my thought process flawed here?"</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Not flawed.<br>

I would say that your information / understanding is “incomplete”.</p>

<p>In brief -</p>

<p>Av Mode:<br>

The CAMERA’s TTL will select the Tv (Shutter Speed) to expose the AMBIENT LIT SCENE, ‘correctly’.<br>

The FLASH in ETTL II will select the amount of Flash necessary to expose the FOREGROUND SUBJECT, ‘correctly’.<br>

Therefore, we would normally use FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) and “ride” the FEC, to suit the FOREGROUND SUBJECT -noting (for example) that the FEC will be different for a single portrait of Woman in a Pure White Bridal Gown, than for a single Portrait of Man in a Black Tuxedo.</p>

<p>P Mode:<br>

P Mode works very similar to the as above for BRIGHT AMBIENT SCENES (EV ≥ 11~12), that is to say the camera will still choose both the Av and the Tv to suit the AMBIENT Light, and the Flash will “fill” the foreground Subject. One can still use FEC as described above. <br>

However for darker scenes, (EV ≤ 9~10) the Camera and the Flash work as “one unit” to allow the FLASH become the KEY Light for the shot. (yes! in this type of shooting scenario, we can get darker backgrounds, than if we used Av Mode).<br>

At EV 9~12, there can be a “grey area” of how it all works – but it still works “pretty good” for the vast majority of the time.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>HOWEVER - the OP asked for a ‘one size fits all answer’: and that’s why I suggested P Mode and E-TTL II Mode.</p>

<p>My rationale to my suggestion was much more than just the above differentiation of Av Mode and P Mode’s functionalities. </p>

<p>The reasons for my advice also extended (amongst other things) to allow for shooting scenes in transitional EV and also the consideration that P Mode is biased to Shutter Speed in so far as it attempts to select a Tv as to not to allow and camera shake to affect the shot – if one is in Av Mode and using Flash as Fill, it is possible under the pressure of time and shooting an event, to miss the Tv dropping to dangerous speeds, for example, consider you are in Av Mode: Av = F/5.6 at ISO 200:<br>

Bride exists car - backit sun (car in shadow) and you pull a full length shot –<br>

F/5.6 @ 1/200s @ ISO200, FEC -1</p>

<p>Then the Bride moves to the Church doorway you are looking into the (dark) Church, standing outside – another Full Length Portrait the Bride turning her head towards you – F/5.6 @ 1/20s @ ISO 200 . . . nice crisp Bride from Flash Exposure . . . but blurry lights in the Church and B/Maid at entrance of Church (behind the Bride) is moving her hand rapidly: result – ‘very yuck’. </p>

<p>Yes I know that: “you should have been watching the Shutter Speed and Adjusted the ISO” – but the point is, this is a common mistake, especially by those who don’t shoot Wedding three times a week and this mistake (and other mistakes) are (mostly) alleviated by using the solution I outlined – i.e. the combination of P Mode and E-TTL II, and an understanding of SD (Shooting Distance) and how it relates to the Effective WD (Working Distance) of the Flash.</p>

<p>WW </p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong>Addendum</strong><br>

Robert - (and Jamie):</p>

<p>Arena's book has been mentioned.<br>

I'd suggest (Robert) getting <strong>"Mastering Canon EOS Flash Photography"</strong>, KN Guy, (Rocky Nook Inc.)<br>

I have both those books (and more).<br>

Guy's Book is better, if one wants an understanding, which predicated the question Robert Turner asked me.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>I suggested P Mode and E-TTL II Mode.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

+1<br>

<br>

I'll also suggest bouncing or feathering your flash as opposed to direct, head on, deer in the headlights flash, except for cases (typically group shots) where one speed light is not powerful enough to illuminate the group when bounced. Bounced or feathered light will be more flattering in most cases and less likely to ruin shots by reflecting in spectacles.<br>

<br>

Auto ISO is probably your best bet, but if you have the will to adapt it for different light, go with 100 in bright sunlight to keep flash sync from being an issue, 400-800 on an overcast day or in the shade, 1600-6400 indoors unless you want the flash to dominate the shot (in which case dial back down to the 200-800 range indoors).<br>

<br>

RAW+JPEG with High ISO NR engaged will give you post processing options.<br>

<br>

Beware of the many instances where a wedding dress causes the camera to underexpose. This is why I mentioned generous use of exposure compensation in my first post. Just don't forget it and leave it on +1 or (worse) -1. Take a peek at your histogram occasionally to see how things are measuring up.</p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p>Bounce it inside, do not shoot direct. <br>

Outside, dial in minus 2/3 exposure, and you should be good. </p>

[robert_turner5]

<p>William W, thank you! Excellent explanation & definite help for me to grasp what I was unclear about wrt "P" and its flash algorithm. I still have a printout of NK Guy's excellent original EOS Flash treatise from photonotes.org. (gosh, probably 10 years old now), wasn't aware that a full-on book was available- thanks for that tip as well!</p>

<p> </p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<blockquote>

<p>Outside, dial in minus 2/3 exposure, and you should be good.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I presume you are referring to flash exposure?</p>

<p>Thank you all for your very detailed advice, it is genuinely appreciated. I think my questions have been answered.</p>

<p>Like I said earlier, with the exception of fill in flash, I do actually know what I'm doing. I know there's going to be a lot of up and down exposure compensation, especially with the wedding dress etc.</p>

<p>Thanks folks :-)</p>

[William Michael]

<p>@ Robert - you're welcome, his book is worth it.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>@ Jamie - not speaking for Ian: but, yes, I would be referring to FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation), for “outside”.<br>

You might note I mentioned FEC = -1 in my example “outside” as the Bride was arriving: that’s pretty close to minus ⅔.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Thanks William :-)</p>

[William Michael]

<p>OK</p>