refinished m4?

[lenore_thierry]

<p>Hey all,<br>

I purchased an m4 today (god is it nice) from an official Leica dealer. These guys get great reviews and my experience was fantastic, nothing felt at all shady. I believe they are exactly what they appear to be, meticulous, expert and generous with time and knowledge.<br>

That said, I was floating along on my new camera high when I looked up my baby's serial number (1228469) and saw that it falls into a time of production for silver chrome m's. This here is jet black. The body has some wear but the vulcanite is pristine and while there are some tiny dings along the top plate edges they don't show chrome color. Should they?<br>

I know that sometimes the factory sends out cameras that are different from what was expected (like my m6 panda), but could a black chrome slip into production during a silver chrome batch? Does anyone know how to tell if an m has been refinished? Should I worry or let it go? I did pay a little more than I would have for the same body in silver chrome because I fell in love, was I cheated?<br>

Thanks for any feedback:)<br>

Lenore</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Sounds like you have a nice instrument for photography. The chap who refinished my IIIf did so by removing all coatings down to brass and then applying black enamel, subsequently heat hardened. I expect that Leica also would have begun from a brass body rather than trying to paint black over chrome, so it may be hard to tell whether your black finish is factory or 3rd party. All I can say is that some professional 3rd party painters succeeded in producing a more durable coating than the Leica one (Leitz).</p>

[SCL]

<p>If you like what you purchased, don't worry about it, unless you plan to put it on a shelf and stare at it.</p>

[Rob F.]

<p>It's not too unusual to find a Leica that differs a bit from the description in the Leitz serial number listings. Those listings were not perfect! Variations are not unknown. My guess is, yours probably left the factory as it is now--a black chrome. I don't have my serial number lists handy--they are in the basement. But I'm wondering if yours might have been made toward the end of a batch of chrome M4s, just before a black batch, and they switched production to black at an earlier number than the original batch assignment called for. In any case, a black chrome M4 is a nice thing to have!</p>

[lenore_thierry]

<p>Putting a camera on a shelf to stare at is such an odd choice! I feel that people who do this live in a separate, parallel reality where they also sniff food but don't eat it and watch porn but never remove their own clothes.<br>

The funny thing is, I suspect that my new camera might be a refugee of just such a realm. Shortly after posting I was fiddling with different lenses when lo and behold, a half inch of otherwise perfect vulcanite flaked off from under the lens and ruined its pristine appearance.<br>

Which is kind of good in a way, I want a shooter. Maybe it was just too pretty for a forty five year-old, I started to worry that it couldn't be what it appeared to be.<br>

I have also been stung in the past purchasing on ebay, I'm more leary now than I used to be purchasing camera gear. My gut says it's the real deal, the camera feels tight and clean in my hands. I'll run a roll through it and if it's good I'll stop worrying. I just wanted to put a feeler out, see if all the refurbishing out there was creating a wave of beaters turned into prom-queens.</p>

[mukul_dube]

<p>Better to return the thing than to kill yourself with worry.</p>

[robert_bouknight1]

<p>I know this is not in the best collector spirit, but I would pay extra for a black paint M4 nicely (re)done, even if not original. Keep meaning to do one of my M3 cameras. I would not use a pristine chrome to convert, more of a nice user type.</p>

<p>What would not be good is if a converted camera were priced and sold as a collector grade original factory black paint. These used to bring a large premium over chrome, not sure about now.</p>

<p> </p>

[john_robison3]

<p>If it is fully functional I'd just start using it. These are all getting along in years and many spent much of their life sitting, not being used. That's bad for any camera. My own experience in buying a Leica M was not smooth either. I found a pristine M4-2 body, not a mark on it. The vulcanite was perfect also. Within 6 months large pieces of it were chipping off. I just recovered mine with an Aki-Asahi replacement covering. My slow speeds have all dropped out also, from 1 sec to1/8 sec are inoperable. This is not to much of a concern as I can't handhold a camera at those speeds anyway. Someday I'll remove the top and see what is jamming up the slow speed gears but for right now I just shoot the darn thing since everything else is working fine. </p>

[lenore_thierry]

<p>Thanks for the responses everyone!<br>

Robert, I agree about not turning my nose up at refinished, it would be the non-disclosure that worries me because of the functionality issues. <br>

I paid $1495, I think the price was fair even if there was a premium for the black over silver. I could have purchased a black M6 in similar cosmetic condition but. The M4 wasn't mint even before it came home and shed some covering.<br>

John, I feel your pain. I've poured a lot of money into my other M because it was not in the shape I thought it was when I bought it, it's currently receiving its second CLA in a year and new shutter curtains! I guess that's just part of the fun if you are not the original buyer, but I'm really wanting this purchase to be hassle free.</p>

[Troll]

<p>I'm still trying to figure out why Cartier-Bresson's Leica A is chrome, not black.</p>

[rogerwb]

<p>With vulcanite, when it's time, it's time. I have a DS M3 that was fine for years. Then a little chip fell off, then bigger chips and hunks just fell off. If you decide to keep it, there are two popular options for recovering.. Aki-Asahi and cameraleather.com.</p>

[lenore_thierry]

<p>After a day walking around with the camera I think it would take something pretty big to make me give it back, like a gun to my head. Even if it is a refurbished body I love it so much that I almost feel sorry for my M6, the feeling of using it is just beautiful. Thanks for the tip about the vulcanite. I have a feeling it won't be long before I need to look into recovering.<br>

Anyone have an opinion on which of these is better? I'm not the kind of gal who would do pink ostrich, definitely would want to replicate the original black.</p>

[rogerwb]

<p>When I get around to it, I will recover with the Grip-Tac from Camera Leather.</p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>If you have a black chrome M4 you are a lucky man because those things are not common. If it is black chrome and not paint it was mostly likely done at the Leitz factory. Write to Leitz and ask. Anyway, a well refinished Leica by a third party is still a valuable camera. Chrome M4s as common. What you have is not. Hang on to it.</p>

[john_boyle3]

<p>The vulcanite on the back door of my M4 got chipped a few years ago. I removed the door and recovered it with the Cameraleather vinyl replacement. The fit was excellent and it looks very good. I would recommend the Cameraleather product. The most difficult part of the project is removing all of the old vulcanite.</p>

[jeff_guthrie]

Your camera dates to 1969, so it should be either satin-chrome plated, or black enamel paint. Black-chrome cameras

were produced later. If you see brass under the chipped paint, it is a black enamel model, or was refinished in black

enamel. I have a few M cameras, some are originally black, a couple I have had refisnished. I also have a couple of

chrome ones. I do prefer the black, especially if the paint has a lot of wear.

 

I love shooting with an M4, it just feels better than the later cameras. On the other hand, I prefer the viewfinder in the

M3. I just got my M3 refinished in high gloss black paint. Everyone who sees it thinks it is an MP. But now it looks too

nice too shoot...

[aplumpton]

<p>Jeff and Alex confirm my own thoughts on this, especially in regard to the brass structure and the fact that black chrome was a later product. Whether your camera was painted black later, or originally by Leica, it is very likely well worth the price you paid for it. Use it, don't worry about its value (if it is an original black enamel model it could be of higher value than you paid), and make some great photos with it. It is a great instrument. </p>

[lenore_thierry]

<p>Well close inspection in bright light with a jewelers loupe reveals tiny glittering gold tones shining out from the nearly unworn edges on the bottom plate and on the film advance lever, so it looks like I can anticipate brassing over the coming years of near daily use. I will take the advice of all, use it without worrying and if it needs to take a trip to Sherry sooner than later so be it.<br>

Feeling very lucky right now!</p>

[james_baker13]

<p>What Jeff Guthrie posted is correct. <br>

If you are seeing brass underneath the black (as you mention in your last post) then you have either a factory black paint or a repaint (possibly from one of the Japanese Leica painters who do a nice job.)<br>

If it's factory, then you got a steal for that price. Although I would assume that the shop, who you say are Leica specialists, would know what it is and would have priced it accordingly. And they should have told you that they think it's a repaint.<br>

But nonetheless, all that matters is that you're happy. There's nothing wrong with your purchase even if it's not factory original. And if it is, then you did quite well. But as others have implied, it's a tool and not something to stare at; although a BP M4 is certainly worth staring at :-)</p>