Dirt on film

[terrence_brennan]

I am having somewhat of a dirt problem in my water supply. My

darkroom is located in a rural area, and the water is well water,

which is very hard. There is seepage into the basement sometimes

during the year, and when the water evaporates, it leaves behind a

substance while looks like cotton candy: white and fuzzy.

 

The water is filtered in two stages; first, the main cold water line

in has a 5-15 micron filter. Second, the tempered wash water line

has a 1-5 micron (carbon) filter on it. From the inside top of the

filter holder, right down the line to my wash tank, eveything is now

squeeky clean. I dismantled the filter assembly, and my film washer,

and cleaned them with acid drain cleaner, including the feed pipe

after the filter assembly. The fittings on the film washer are also

clean, and the hose is brand new.

 

The dirt is very small, and can only be seen with an 8x lupe. I made

another test yesterday evening, and the problem is still there.

There is no suspended dirt in the chemicals. My final rinse, photo-

flo, was made with distilled water.

 

I am wondering if the problem is the fixer. It is a liquid fix, made

for paper, but diluted so that the film clears in two minutes, and I

fix for four minutes. I should add that there is NO hardner added.

 

When I made last night's test, I noticed scratches on the film,

diagonal mostly, and random. They weren't on my earlier tests. The

only different conditions from earlier tests was the cleaned up

apparatus, and I set the water flow to be very turbulent. I am

wondering if the problem isn't so much excess dirt as a lack of

hardener?

 

The film in question is HP5 Plus, but I have also had problems with

Agfapan 400, so I don't suspect the film. If there is anybody who

has any knowledge or experience with this, I would apprecite hearing

from you. I am definitely NOT a beginner; I have had 25+ years

experience in the photographic industry, most in the

darkroom/finishing end of the business, and this is one problem I

have NEVER seen. This darkroom was completed recently, and is

something I have been wanting for years.

[bleck]

I don't use a fixer with hardener, and the only time I've ever seen scratches on my film was when I was using a squeegee.<br>

If you are using a squeegee, dont't. Get rid of it. After you've developed/stopped/fixed/washed, use some Kodak photo-flo for 30 seconds. It promoted even, quick drying, you don't need to squeegee, and since I started using it I've NEVER had a problem with water spots. If your water is REALLY bad, you might want to mix your photo-flo using distilled water, but I've never had an issue using tap water.

[bleck]

Well, I need to read more carefully ;-) I missed this:<br><br>

<center>

The dirt is very small, and can only be seen with an 8x lupe. I made another test yesterday evening, and the problem is still there. There is no suspended dirt in the chemicals. My final rinse, photo- flo, was made with distilled water. </center><br><br>

If that's the case, then I honestly have no idea. My suggestion would be to do some big prints and see if it's an issue.

[eugene_singer]

Terrence, whenever I had to deal with well water in my darkrooms, I mixed all of my chemicals using distilled water from the grocery store. The dirt specks and scratches you are experiencing may be caused by suspended particles in the well water getting on the film while the emulsion is soft, during the development stage. I always filter my wash water through a 5 micron filter, and Photo Flo with distilled water, as you do. If distilled water doesn't solve the problem, you may need to add a hardener to your fixer. Just wash the film for a longer time.

[chris_waller]

This is a mystery! I live in a hard water area but I filter to 10

microns and I have never had a problem. The salts that appear

in your basement are soluble salts which are crystallising out

and I suspect that it is these which are crystallising out on your

film. So I would go along with the other respondent who

suggested a longer wash in distilled water. Have you tried the

Ilford manual washing method? This should also minimise the

turbulence and it delivers archival quality negs.

[thomas_coverdale]

Terrence, during the snow melt season I have experienced a similar problem with very fine dirt (glacial milk size) on film when drying. I have pretty much eliminated the problem with the following procedure. I bought a squirt bottle, similar to the ones we used in chemistry lab, filled it with distilled water and a very small amount of photo-flo. After processing with my noraml filtered (~5 micron) water and before hanging the film to dry, I use the squirt bottle to give each side othe roll or each side of the sheet a vigorous wash. The film drys clear, dirt and spot free. Hope this helps. As I said I now do this all the time but really only need it about two to three weeks a year in spring, when the river is high and silty.

[rick_jones5]

No, I haven't had this problem. However, I can't help but wonder what I might do to try and track down the culprid. Dirt is getting into your processing and you're going to have to pin down the source by changing one processing variable at a time until you start seeing clean clear negatives. I would start by using distilled water from the grocery store for the entire process from developing thru final wash. Yeah, you will have to use about 3 gal at 89 cents a pop but how else can you be sure your tap water isn't the sourse of the problem. Don't let one drop of tap touch that film. For the wash PermaWash for 2 min then put the film through 5 or 6 successive changes of distilled water letting it soak for a minute or so between changes. If you still have the same problem I would go back to tap water but change developer. I would buy a new bottle of any general purpose liquid developer, HC110, FG7,or Rodinal and see if that solves the problem. Still no change? Mix up your stop from a brand new bottle of say Kodak Indicator. Still a problem? Buy a new bottle of liquid fix like Kodafix. Do I need to go on? Change only one processing variable at a time and do not use any of you present chemicals now at hand when you make a change. If you still have a problem you just may have to go digital. As to the scratches - you know as well as I that that must be from mishandling or a camera problem. Go thru the same process - change camera bodies then let someone else load your reels. Don't allow anything to touch the film until it is thoroughly dry and rethink the area where you hang the film to dry. Again there is always digital. Whatever happens, PLEASE let use know how you finally solved this problem.

[donald_miller1]

In regard to your problem...it would seem to me that you are dealing with two separate and distinct problems. The first being the foreign matter on the processed film and the second being the scratches that you noted. For the first problem I would recommend using water that is either distilled or having been processed through an RO unit to determine if your problem is indeed related to your water supply. I would use this in both the mix of the stock solutions and also to dilute with. That will then determine if your water supply is problematic. It may be that the carbon filter may be leaching out small pieces of carbon if it is very new. The second problem is apparently due to not using a hardner in your fixing bath, and is occuring at some point in your processing. Are the scratches on the base or the emulsion side of the film? That may give some insight into how and where the abrasion is occuring.

[lex_jenkins]

The white deposits you've observed leftover after seepage in the basement sounds like lime or talc. We get the same thing from our well water. But I've never experienced any problems with scratches.

 

While the water softener (salt type) on our well helps minimize the problem I still use distilled water for the developer stage. I also mix the Photo-Flo with distilled water. I "squeegee" the film between my fingers so that I can feel any grit and stop before inflicting too much of a scratch on the emulsion. But using the distilled water has pretty much eliminated that problem.

 

You might also try less turbulence in the water. In fact, all I do for rinsing is to fill the tank, invert several times, and repeat x3. I don't like to soak or annoy the emulsion any more than necessary.

[j.w.]

Terrence;

 

Ditto to the use of Photoflo vs squeegee.

 

Ditto to the use of distilled water at all steps, including making working and stock solutions.

 

Ditto to the Ilford manual rinse method. Highly recommended. This makes the use of distilled water an affordable non-hassle, and the general step of archival film washing a short, sweet, easy operation. My film wash adapter hose for the Jobo tank is no longer used, because of this method.

 

I live in a city, with good, deep-aquafer water. I still use only distilled water for all steps of film processing. The other problem with using mineral-laden water is the subtle and uncontrolled effects it may have on contrast, due to uncontrolled pH levels. Then think about the effects of flouridated/chlorinated municipal treatment on film chemistry. I don't need that additional uncontrolled element in my process.

 

As for the scratches, the carbon filter could be the source. Finely suspended minerals shouldn't "scratch"; if they do, they'd be big enough to be visible. Use distilled in all your chemistry, as mentioned above. I highly recommend a hardening fixer. The emulsion is your "raw image file"; it deserves to be protected. They're fragile things.

 

Finally, if you do decide to "go digital" as a solution (!), I would highly recommend a power line filter on your AC, especially if you live in a rural environment...(just kidding....)

[doremus_scudder1]

One more answer, (I'll try to keep it short):

 

You need to determine what the dirt is that is getting on to your film. It could be 1) airborn dust that gets on to the film when drying, it could be 2) dissolved minerals crystalizing as the film dries, it could be 3) particulates from your tap water.

 

If 1), then dust control in the film drying area should help.

 

If 2), a final 2-3 minute rinse in distilled water (with wetting agent) will eliminate the problem. (When I lived in Texas I had problems with both hard and softened water in this regard. Distilled water cleared up the problem)

 

If 3), (which I doubt, since your filtration seems good) then more efficient filtration and the distilled water squirt-bottle rinse mentioned above should help.

 

One more thing to consider (number 4 if you like) possibly dissolved minerals in your water are reacting with your processing chemicals to make a precipitate. Examine them carefully (pour a little of each of them through a coffee filter, or dry small quantities of each on blotter paper to check for particulates. Use well-used chemicals, and stir them up well first get any particulates into suspension before taking your sample). If you find particulates, then mix that step (at least) with distilled water.

 

Now, on to the scratches. Again, if you can find the cause, you can deal with the problem. The cause may not be the dirt you have on your film. However, deal with the dirt problem first, and see if it eliminates your scratch problem. If not, check agitation and film handling techniques...

 

Hope this helps, ;^D)