Impact of "M Monochrom(e)" on B&W Film Photography

[nozar_kishi]

<p>I am a Leica fan, and I love film, especially Black and White. I would love to hear everybody's feeling towards the introduction of the "M Monochrom(e)" that will be out later this summer.<br>

To my humble opinion (and I would love to hear everybody's) this will have great impact not only in the Leica world, but also on the world of photography in general. I think it will shift, at least a bit, back the pointer to the Black and White, and since many B&W lovers also use film, I hope it will renew the enthusiasm and bring the film back. The impact, I think, is especially because the new camera brings back the old simplicity, i.e., the worry-less world of one camera, one format, as opposed to multi format, mutil choice, nature of the digital. Whay do you think?</p><div></div>

[zane1664879013]

<p>Impact on the greater world of photography? None. Leica is a niche operator catering to a tiny customer base and the M Mono is a niche within a niche.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Depends on how well it's implemented. A dedicated monochrome-only Leica digital camera with flexible enough user selectable adjustments might not only appeal to photographers who prefer to spend as little time as possible on post work; it might also influence other camera makers to provide better in-camera adjustments for b&w photos.</p>

<p>I use the b&w only option on my 10 year old Olympus digicam because I like the results. With minor in-camera tweaks to contrast and sharpness the look ranges from conventionally exposed and developed Tri-X to C-41 process monochrome film. But a couple other digicams I've tried with in-camera b&w don't quite produce a look I want.</p>

<p>If the in-camera adjustments could mimic everything from Panatomic X or Pan F+ to Delta 3200 or T-Max 3200 and hard-pushed Tri-X and IR, sure, it might catch on well enough to influence the rest of the market, at least among a niche group. So far there aren't enough preview reports or sample photos online to determine whether the new Leica monochrome offers enough flexibility to be that type of game changer.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>The idea of the M monochrome isn't to mimic film. It makes digital monochrome truly monochrome.</p>

[nozar_kishi]

<p>Zane<br />Don't you think other makers, such as Fujifilm, etc, would come up soon with their own version (with possible tweaks) with one-tenth of the price? And if so, isn't it a ripple that would go (hopefully) far?</p>

<p>Lex<br />I agree 100%. It all depends on how this first version can fill the gaps that is missing, such as film-specific signature, grain, characteristive curve slope, etc.</p>

<p>BeBu<br>

But digital can mimic films (see Fujifilm for that). And if can, why not, because there are customers to buy.</p>

[starvy]

<p>It is a really interesting camera but I dare say it would enthuse new film users in black and white or colour. The recent hike in price would continue to drive film users to digital.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Other than the increase in sharpness by eliminating the Bayer interpolation, I don't see an advantage of using the MM over any other camera and converting to B&W in post (for which the MM ships with Silver Efex). I have yet to be convinced that having only one channel of information vs three is an advantage; I certainly count it as an disadvantage having to carry and out B&W filters again. Which for purist should be a no-no anyway since they may take away that sharpness gain the MM sensor gives them.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>I think the real chance for impacting photography will com by the general amount of "buzz" and interest the camera gathers (along with sales). If, for example, Canon sees that there is a lot of buzz and excitement and sales (in a relative sense, considering the price) for the monochrome M, then I could see them releasing a monochrome rebel or something along those lines. The R&D costs would have to be minimal I would think and the pricing would be in line with what your average photography enthusiast would be interested in paying.</p>

[robert_hooper1]

<p>I predict the pending Leica M Monochrom camera will be met with an unenthusiastic market, (not counting collectors), and will have no effect on b&w film photography. Even if the camera offers infinite in-camera nuancing of black and white imaging, I doubt there are enough potential buyers with a knowlegeble appreciation of good b&w imaging, today, to make this idea successful. Why spend $8,000 on a camera that can only shoot in black and white when there are so many much cheaper cameras available that can shoot in both color and monochrome? Furthermore, almost every image editing program has a b&w conversion option.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I think the issue is simply the price and limitations of an M body. While I would love an M Monochrome it is low down my priority list. I would have rather had Leica release an improved M9 or M10. To me the M9P still has a few things that would be nice to have fixed. The main improvements I think it needs are a better LCD screen (higher resolution and easier to read in bright conditions) and improved high ISO sensor performance.<br>

The M Mono does solve my high ISO problem - my main need is to be able to shoot indoors in lowish light with a fast lens and no flash - B&W is fine I don't need colour for this. Unfortunately I also like to shoot colour in good light and the M Mono does not have this option. A single body that would do high ISO B&W and low ISO colour and B&W would be ideal.<br>

I do not think the M Mono brings back the simple world of film but it complicates matters. With film I could use one body for Low ISO , High ISO, colour, B&W and IR. This is not an option with the M series right now</p>

[bms]

<p>It may not impact the general photography world much (who mainly shoots compacts, low end DSLRs and now "mirrorless") or the pros (who with few exception will probably feel limited by monochrome), but I think Leica has done a gutsy move, putting itself ahead - in some ways - of the crowd while it has lagged behind in so many ways before. That is good for photographers in general, and probably mostly good for Leica.<br /> <br />The MM is likely appealing to people like me - hobby (or call it wanna-be) street photographers with disposable income - and a few dedicated Leica pros, the larger group being by far being the former, the customer base they will derive their profit from. That being said, I wold dount they will repeat the success of the M9.<br /> Shooting the M9, and converting 90% of my images to B&W, I do not find the scrawny LCD, or slow write speed limiting. What is annoying is the poor ISO performance (though in B&W conversion, ISO 1250 looks mostly OK), and frankly, my M6 just feels better in my hands, the M9 is just a little too chunky. Of course it would be nice to have a few things made better, like the LCD, but I would assume for most people these are not deal breakers.<br /> After first saying "no thanks" I have placed a pre-order for the MM - seeing in the next 2 months it is still quite possibly will change my mind - and I will likely sell the M9. For most of my photography, I shoot Nikon. If Leica comes out with a non-plus ultra M10 in September, I am going to be pretty po'ed though....</p>

[rgerraty]

1. I like the photo you posted.

2. I think there will be take up of this particular camera to a level that will satisfy its maker. I don't know whether any other

manufacturer will follow with their own but I take note of Josh Root's opinion. The chief thing about the M Monochrom is

that one must see the shot in black and white just as with black and white film. There is no ambiguity about it. Having

colour with the option to make it black and white is not the same mindset. The next most important thing about the M

Monochrom is the very useable hgh ISOs. The increased sharpness is the least important thing for me, but for some pros

it may be crucial. If a number of leading photogrpahers fall in love with the concept and produce impressive and widely

admired results and if they talk up the Monochrom I can see it being a desirable concept for others. I would like one for

stage and after hours stuff that sees me struggling with Neopan and Delta 3200 rated at 1600 pushing 1/15th and slower

for half the night when I could have 1/60s all night.

[tate_jackson]

<p>I really like the idea of a Monochrome Only digital camera. I could make use of that high iso performance. I am keeping my fingers crossed that some other camera company will make one for under a grand.</p>

[wolf_rainer_schmalfuss]

<p>KODAK has tried it with a DCS760 DSLR-camera (Nikon) also a couple years ago, with no success. I personally, would not be willing to spend 6800 € just for an camera body with yesterdays digital technics.<br>

Real B&W is still an wet process with film an real baryt photo papers, and not with an ink printer!<br>

But, I agree, that the digital process is coming close to the traditional B&W photography, and are for most people just sufficient.</p>

[rossb]

<p>If it brings Sabastio Salgado back to Leica it will be something good for Leica. . However for me it means nothing really. I will never even see the camera in the real world or any of it's pictures in print form. <br>

Overall I just do not know what will happen. Digital camera's all have a B/W mode already so this camera is just another entry into a already established market. I suppose the Leica camera may do it better or maybe it will not. I just would not know that. </p>

<p> </p>

[keith selmes]

<p>I'd not heard of this. At dpreview it says:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The M-Monochrom has no color filter array in front of the sensor, meaning it captures more of the available light but cannot perceive color. It also means there is no need for demosaicing (the process of combining color information from adjacent pixels), so higher levels of detail are retained.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So if anyone wants to do digital B&W, this seems to be the one to have. Not for me at Leica prices though. </p>

[nozar_kishi]

<p>I do not think MM's high price is an issue. If MM can only make a splash, then shortly we will see likes of Fujifilm, Lumix, etc, coming up with $1000 versions. Setting aside the price barrier, I think the launcing of MM, at least, sets a new (rather renewed) era of "previsualization", "zone system thinking", "playing with filters", "pre-exposure", "High Subject Brightness Range", etc. Also, since MM keeps records of plus and minus (braketting) exposure on the same file and on the same shot, you don't need to shoot three times for HDR, and therefore you can make HDR from moving objects, as opposed to color that you only shoot stationary such as landscape, and apples. And to be honest, in MM high ISO noise is a great tool to make "grain", whereas in color, it is only to be avoided. Again, MM, to me, will have impact by introducing the idea, and letting others follow (with purchasable prices).</p><div></div>

[ant_nio_gomes]

<blockquote>

<p>I do not think MM's high price is an issue. If MM can only make a splash, then shortly we will see likes of Fujifilm, Lumix, etc, coming up with $1000 versions.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We never know if there are patents involved, how many and if there is any exclusivity agreement that can prevent others to come with B&W cameras to the market in the near future.<br>

About price: no doubt at all it is rather high, but this is no surprise coming from Leica and for a model that will not sell in numbers to be much cheaper.<br>

One issue I see in a B&W sensor is the filter limitation when compared to converted RAW files: here you have to use filters in front of the lens, while converted files allow you to play with the channels and probably get a more flexible effect.<br>

Nozar, after using the camera, how do you evaluate this aspect?</p>

[ant_nio_gomes]

<p>Sorry for double input</p>

[nathan_meijer]

<p>I don't see it happening, and the main reason is the 10,000 max ISO. I have probably seen the same pictures as you, and I am not that impressed yet. The Nikon D4 goes to ISO204,800, even the Fuji x-pro1 goes to ISO25,600 - so then this max is a little lackluster to be honest. Yes, it's a huge upgrade from film.. but that's not the competition anymore!</p>

[james_elwing]

<p>It will probably only make a difference for full frame 35mm, where it offers bigger sharp images without going to a larger format, that will take advantage of all the newer Leica lenses, including, dare I say, the new 50mm Summicron. There are theoretical limits to resolution, and they are affected by digital processing of colour images, and diffraction from the f stop chosen. I think it is brilliant, but as someone who went straight from M3 to M9 I might have to hope for it to come up as second hand at second hand M8 prices. Yes, it is expensive.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>capture no color information makes the camera less capable of mimic film (and yes I mean B&W film) so it's not the purpose of the M monochrom. It makes little impact on the photographic world. Few people will buy it just like few were buying the M9. But I feel that they might be able to sell up to 70% to M9 owners. Because if you already own the M9 and a bunch of Leica lenses buying the monochrom makes a lot of sense.</p>

[steve_bellayr]

<p>I can not fathom the need for this camera. If you don't own an M9 why buy the monochrome and loose out on color? If you have an M9 why not use conversion or just use an M6 with tri-x? Like the above I await a higher ISO but I would not give up color.</p>

[Didier Lamy]

<p>"you have to use filters in front of the lens"<br />

I assume that digital color photographers too use protective - or polarizing - filters. Do really Leica people walk around in a busy street without a protection for the front of their expensive lens?</p>

[kyoken74]

@Nozar,

 

People who shoot B&W film today are shooting B&W film not because it is B&W but because it is *film*. Film is

fundamentally a different medium than digital sensors, and the fact that it is B&W is a fairly superficial aspect of it. Did M9

suddenly rekindle people's interest in color film photography? I think not. So, why should MM suddenly bring back interest

in B&W film?

 

I do share your preference on simplicity, but I do not think MM went far enough. I shoot film not only for the control it gives

me but also for its limitations. Exposure is not an afterthought because there is no histogram. Popping in a roll of film is

both a decision and a commitment, because I am stuck with my choice for the next 36 frames. I must therefore solve the

problems in front of me with that constraint in mind, rather than scrolling through the menu system looking for a setting so

that the camera's computer can solve them form me. MM simply does not offer that experience film cameras offer to its

users.