Dieter Schaefer Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>Just found this tidbit posted by <strong>Thom Hogan</strong> in a response on the NR site (fairly certain I can't link to it directly) and I thought I share it here as it may be of value to those deciding between a D800 and D800E:</p><blockquote><p><em>It all boils down to this: the D800 has a weak AA filter. From f/5.6 and certain from f/8 up the cameras produce nearly identical pixel-level results due to diffraction. The primary differences will be found from f/1.4 to f/4, where the D800E retains crisper edges and the D800 is not only slightly worse, but gets slightly worse with each stop (I suspect low-level diffraction caused by the wave plate in the AA filter). But the bottom line is what I and others have written: if you’re shooting at f/4 or faster, the D800E has a clear edge. If you’re shooting at f/5.6 and slower, there’s no real need to get a D800E, you’ll get little to no benefit.</em></p></blockquote><p><em><br /></em>Apparently then, there is no advantage in getting the D800E over the D800 for a landscape shooter - who likely will stop down below f/5.6 most of the time? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>Dieter, if the quote is on the bythom.com web site, I have no doubt that it is from Thom Hogan the Nikon expert, unless some hacker manages to break into his site. However, on those rumor sites, there are numerous Ren Kockwell (that is not a typo), etc. etc. posting. Sometimes it is hard to figure out who is actually who. However, the writing style you quoted does look like Thom Hogan's.</p> <p>I haven't had a chance to test this carefully, but hopefully diffraction is not a serious issue with the D800/D800E around f5.6 and f8. From f11 and smaller, it is going to be a problem.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard__ Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>I suspect that comment refers to testing as shown by <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/22">comparison images</a> on the DP Review site.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard__ Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>And of course there is this brief mention on Thom's web site today:</p> <p><a href="http://www.bythom.com/"><em><strong>Catching Up With the D800</strong></em></a></p> <blockquote> <p>D800E models haven't reached that level yet, though. Wait lists still abound for this model (save your money if you shoot mostly at f/5.6 or smaller). <br> </p> </blockquote> <p>Although given the ease by which anyone can claim anything on the NR site, you never actually know who is writing.<br /><br> However as far as I'm concerned the more reliable information in those links will not dissuade me from the 'E' version, and suggest what I thought about this originally, that it's a slightly better choice for my uses.<br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpernal Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>I just read the Pop Photo review and I am very sad to see the noise results of their tests.<br> <br />I have a D300 and a D700 and was thinking about selling the 300 and a couple lenses to get the 800, but I am not so sure now... Also, I shoot a lot of high-speed nature stuff (birds in flight) and the FPS rate is another disappointing factor. With the overpriced grip, you still only get 6 fps. I'm considering another D700 and MB-D10. Cheaper, and may be all I need.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>Thom and I have been discussing other topics via e-mail lately, and I have an e-mail to him to verify that the quote is indeed his post. Again, given the writing style, it probably is.</p> <p>Actually there is something that concerns me more. Yesterday (June 16), Hogan posts to his web site that he has used about a dozen D800/D800E, and half of those have one problem or another. While that is a very small sample size, the percentage of cameras that has some defects seems quite high. The so called "left AF point" problem has been discussed to no end on DPReveiw forums: <a href="http://www.bythom.com/">http://www.bythom.com/</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot1 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>You may find these comparison shots quite interesting:</p> <p><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/27">http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/27</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/28">http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/28</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/29">http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/29</a></p> <p>You can also download the RAW files and compare them yourself if you are so inclined.</p> <p>Tom, which results are you referring to. Also, keep in mind that if you shoot at the 1.2x mode, you can get almost 6 fps without a grip (same rate as with the grip).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot1 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 <p>Correction, 1.2x crop mode only give 5fps. But it has been reported that you do not get 6fps with the grip - you get a bit under 6.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondC Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 <p>Luminous landscapes said their was lack of any ill effects with the D800E. Had some samples there too, won't be too hard to search for it.....</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 <p>Thom Hogan sent me e-mail and confirms that the quote Dieter posted was indeed written by Thom himself.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel_b.1 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 <p>It's a grand irony, I think, that Nikon comes out with this incredible sensor, but so many (I include myself in this) are so obsessed with the e/non-e quandary, we can't be happy! Had there been just one version (w/AA or without), people would just be talking about what a miracle machine the thing is. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>Joel, but now you have a choice between the D800 and D800E, and the choice generates further discussion.</p> <p>I had waited until the D800E was released in mid April and read some of the initial comparisons, and decided on a D800E to maximize the resolution I can get. The D800 is not going to be my sports and wildlife camera anyway, so I might as well get the extra benefit. For other applications, I still have the D700 for FX and D300/D7000 for DX.</p> <p>I find myself continue using the D700. 12MP is plenty for a lot of applications and I would rather have those smaller NEF files.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel_b.1 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>Choices can be paralyzing, Shun!</p> <p>But I think your logic about the choice is sound. If you intend to use the camera in situations where you can practice controlled, deliberate technique, and you have the use of other cameras for more fast-paced scenarios, it probably makes sense to get the tiny extra edge of the 800E.</p> <p>Anyone who is going to own just one FX body, and has decided it will be either 800 or 800E, is probably better off with the greater flexibility of the 800. </p> <p>All that said, the dpreview real-world comparisons sure make the differences look minimal! I don't think a civilian would ever see the difference between the pictures made by the two bodies, onscreen or on paper. The E is like the cherry on top of a mountainous sundae -- and you can only see the cherry up to f11!</p> <p>By the way, thanks again for your help with my 85 -- I am really loving it. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>Hi Joel B: off topic, I might have accelerated your 85mm/f1.8 AF-S ownership by a month or so. That lens is now in stock all over the place, and I begin to see some slight discount now: not much, perhaps $5 off or so.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The "grand irony" is that this world class sensor was matched up with a third rate live view implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot1 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>Dan, I am sure the D4X will please all the naysayers!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>If anything, I think live view on the D800 is much improved from that on the D3 series and D700. In fact, the improvement started from the D7000: when you captured an image in live view, the mirror no longer needs to flip down and then up again before the image capture.</p> <p>The annoying part of the D800's live view is that after an image capture, the live view (or image review) does not return to the back LCD until the entire image file is written onto the memory card(s). I just captured a few live view images with a CF card I bought 10 years ago, and it looks like 10 seconds for the D800 to write that huge image file. If you use live view a lot on the D800, try to use some faster, modern memory cards.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_symington1 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>My D800E has gone back to Nikon - all my lenses including Zeisses with hard infinity stops now focus past infinity on this camera compared to my D700 etc. Also there is a discrepancy - not a small one - between sharp focus in Live View and what was in focus in the viewfinder. What appears in focus in the viewfinder - when manual focusing - is actually back focused to an image destroying extent. Rather disappointing but I hope Nikon will send it back with these issues sorted.<br /> AF seemed to be fine what little I used it before sending it in.<br> As to the 'E' question - I have yet to see any moire at all. If you can squeeze a bit of extra detail, for not too much extra money, out if it - why not?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard__ Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 <p>Boy is that disturbing, and Thom is seeing more <a href="http://www.bythom.com/">focus</a> issues than he expected to. But he doesn't think it is a serious pattern yet.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 <blockquote> <p>Also there is a discrepancy - not a small one - between sharp focus in Live View and what was in focus in the viewfinder. What appears in focus in the viewfinder - when manual focusing - is actually back focused to an image destroying extent.</p> </blockquote> <p>It sounds like your D800E's mirror or prism is not right. Unless your lens mount or camera chessis is not straight, live view should always provide accurate focusing since the sensor provides both the live view image and the actual image capture.</p> <p>The image in the viewfinder can be affected by the position of the mirror and the prism. Since the mirror is a moving mechanism, most problem will probably come from there.</p> <p>I have experience with even fewer samples than Thom Hogan: in my case just one D800 and one D800E. So far both are flawless.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_symington1 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 <p>Shun - maybe that's the case. But in combination with all my lenses going beyond infinity I wonder if there isn't some lens mount to sensor distance issue. We'll see what comes back...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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