Issues I ran into when shooting an event in a nightclub

[melandkeifspics]

<p>This was the situation: I was asked to take photos at a charity event that was held in a nightclub. For this particular shoot I decided to use a Canon 5D Mark II with a 16-35mm 2.8 and a 580EXII speedlite attached to a TTL sync cord with a Gary Fong collapsible lightsphere with the dome on (the curve of the top going in towards the flash). I wanted to be able to shoot with the flash off camera by holding it in my left hand while holding the camera and shooting with my right. I used evaluative metering, one shot focusing, and auto AF point selection. Here are some of the issues and questions I have...</p>

<p>1. In a lot of instances the club was almost pitch black. I could barely see the subjects through my viewfinder, but they were there. I swear. I could focus on anyone and for that reason couldn't even take a shot. What am I doing wrong and how can I get my camera to focus on something?</p>

<p>2. One issue I had with people was when I tried using FE lock. They would think I actually took a picture and move right after causing me to miss the shot completely. Thoughts?</p>

<p>3. When holding the flash off camera should I be pointing the flash with my lightsphere directly at my subjects (yes, I used various angles to give people I was shooting more dimension)? I tried bouncing off walls and ceilings with the same setup with unfavorable results. However, when deciding to bounce, I did notice that removing the dome helped. Did the high ceilings play a factor in this? Is it common practice to bounce when shooting with flash off camera? What are your preferred techniques?</p>

<p>4. When I manually select a center focus point, focus on my subject, then recompose the shot, what happens with the TTL settings? Will it be set using the original point of focus or will it adjust based on the new center point after I've recomposed the shot?</p>

<p>I guess I have a lot to learn...</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<blockquote>

<p >I could focus on anyone and for that reason couldn't even take a shot. What am I doing wrong and how can I get my camera to focus on something?</p>

</blockquote>

<p >I assume you meant 'couldn't'. Were you using the AF assist from the 580? to use that (when on an OCC) you have to remember to have it <em>pointed at the subject</em> (and you'll see the red crosshatching through the VF). If you had turned it off, that would explain why you didn't see it (and why it didn't help). typically I can shoot in perfectly dark rooms w/o a problem assuming I've got AF assist on.</p>

<blockquote>

<p > When I manually select a center focus point, focus on my subject, then recompose the shot, what happens with the TTL settings</p>

</blockquote>

<p >Typically, the metering follows the center point, so your metering is based off of where the center NOW is. generally not a problem when it's universally dark though.</p>

<blockquote>

<p >When holding the flash off camera should I be pointing the flash with my lightsphere directly at my subjects (yes, I used various angles to give people I was shooting more dimension)?</p>

</blockquote>

<p ><br /></p>

<p >With the 'dish' in place, you can usually shoot directly at the subject, if you are going to bounce (off a black ceiling?) then remove the dish. That's why the dish is removable, bouncing typically takes more power, the dish blocks some of the light.<br /></p>

<p ><br /></p>

<p ><br /></p>

[booray]

<p>The IR assist on the flash is essential for focusing in a dark room. That's why the flash needs to be on your camera. Not sure if it works the same on a cord since the flash is not necessarily the same distance from the subject as the camera. Perhaps someone else knows more about this?</p>

<p>I only use FE lock in a model-type situation where I can explain not to move after the pre-flash.</p>

<p>I bounce at all times with no modifier on the camera unless the walls and ceiling are black. If that's the case, I use a bounce card to throw light forward and bounce straight up. It's flat light but I rarely find myself in a location with all black walls.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>Not sure if it works the same on a cord since the flash is not necessarily the same distance from the subject as the camera.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /><br>

The distance of the flash to the subject doesn't matter for the focusing, it's the camera's AF system reading the pattern off the subject. The distance from the subject to the camera is what the camera uses.<br>

<br /><br>

I have found that it's very difficult to shoot with the flash off-camera in this type of setting specifically because of that. It's not that easy to hand aim the flash at the right angle to have the camera pick up the AF beam. I put the flash on-camera and drag the shutter. The AF will work far better that way.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>1. As others have said, you need to use focus assist from the flash. You can only get focus assist if you are in One Shot focusing mode. It is more difficult to aim the focus assist beam if you are hand holding the flash, but you can do it. Or, get an ST-E2 and use the flash as a slave. The ST-E2 (there are cheap knock offs) has the same focus assist beam as the flash, and it stays in the hotshoe.</p>

<p>2. Don't use FE lock. Get to know how the flash 'reacts' re metering in nightclub conditions. Probably it is fooled by the almost all black background and overexposes the subject, so compensate the flash accordingly and don't use FE lock at all--get good at predicting the response.</p>

<p>3. If it were me, I'd use the LS so that it is pointing at the ceiling, without the dome. If you put the dome on and used it directly pointing at people, it would be OK, but you would have to be more careful aiming, since with wide angle lenses, there may be fall off--the 'circle' of the dome does not cover wide angles. Having the dome off does help with ceiling bounce.</p>

<p>It can be common practice to bounce when shooting off camera. Or not--it depends on the situation.</p>

<p>For situations such as yours, I use white card bounce. Other methods also work, such as yours, but I use white card bounce because it fits nicely within my go-to techniques at weddings. I don't have to carry other modifiers, and white cards are very flexible. I use a modified Demb Diffuser.</p>

<p>4. The 5DMkII uses ETTL-II. The exposure at the selected focus point is taken into consideration but isn't overriding. In practice--doesn't particularly matter. In Evaluative flash mode, a number of things are taken into consideration, including subject distance (with a lens that reports this) and an attempt by the metering system, to determine what is foreground (subject) and what is background. It is all secret as Canon does not explain things. As said previously, get to know how the flash metering responds in various situations and compensate/predict accordingly to get your exposures into the acceptable or workable-in-post zone.</p>

<p>In such dark conditions, do not use the outer focus points. They are just not as reliable. Center focus point with focus assist is what you will want.</p>

[melandkeifspics]

<p>Awesome feedback. You guys are so cool and helpful. Be careful cause I'll be coming back with more questions!</p>

[melandkeifspics]

<p>Am I wrong to think that pointing the flash (with a LS diffuser) directly at my subject will allow me to catch more ambient light? Maybe it's different in a wedding setting, but I want it to be known that we are in a club with their funky colored spotlights and so forth. If I bounce the flash, I find that it brightens up the background in a way I don't want. Am I thinking silly?</p>

 

[savagesax]

Keif wrote "Am I wrong to think that pointing the flash (with a LS diffuser) directly at my subject will allow me to catch more ambient light?"

 

Not really, if the room is really dark you have to add light or use something like a 6400 ISO. I don't like shooting at a really high ISO. The pichures don't look very professional.

 

The best thing to do is add light. I usually use 2 of those White Lightning strobes, usually set in the corners of the reception hall and I will hook up some radio slaves. It's interesting that no one has ever complained about the lights going off.

[john_deerfield]

<blockquote>

<p>Am I wrong to think that pointing the flash (with a LS diffuser) directly at my subject will allow me to catch more ambient light?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Yes. Using flash gives you two, potentially different, exposure controls: ambient & flash. How much ambient you record in relationship to the flash is completely up to you and isn't effected by any flash modifier.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>If I bounce the flash, I find that it brightens up the background in a way I don't want.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In other words, you prefer the look of direct flash. The light fall off from a direct flash is exponential. When you bounce the flash you will be creating a much larger light source and that light will be less linear in regards to your subjects. IE- you will have more light behind the subjects bouncing the flash. You could try bouncing the flash <em>behind</em> you, without the GFLS. This will still give you a softer light without throwing as much light on the background. But it really boils down to how <em>you</em> want the images to look. For what it's worth, the GFLS is a <em>bounce</em> diffuser. Putting the dome on it and pointing it forward isn't going to be any different than using a simple Sto-fen type diffuser.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Actually, John, it is a bit different from an OmniBounce, just because the dome is larger and the length of the LS gives that much more diffusing area, meaning more light gets bounced around--on the floor and on surrounding surfaces--than an OmniBounce.</p>

<p>Perhaps that is why Keif thinks you catch more ambient light this way. Technically, John D.'s answer is correct--ambient level is controlled by you.</p>

<p>However, my point about the dome not being able to 'cover' a wide angle may or may not be to your liking. It gives a forced spotlight effect with a wide angle.</p>

<p>If you like diffused light on the subjects, with dark backgrounds, don't bounce. Something as simple as a small on flash softbox (like Lumiquest) will work just fine. Then--DON'T drag the shutter.</p>

[cian_daly]

<p>I have been photographing in dark clubs regularly for about five years, and went through a slew of diffusers and different lighting methods. No one is perfect and they are all trade offs between reliability, weight and look.<br>

On the focus point issue, if you shoot primes, buy one of the screens for your prism that is designed for low light/manual focusing. It doesn't help a vast amount but the difference is noticeable. If you want to go off camera, get an ST-E2, or one of the knock offs. The build quality is terrible and they use a 2CR5 battery, whereas plenty of the knock offs use AA.<br>

Interfit sell a portrait kit of flash modifiers called "Strobies". I started out using their softbox off camera with a 430ex by way of ST-E2. It worked beautifully but in a crowded club it became difficult. Also, when I would hold out my hand to light from the left, a lot of the drunkards I was photographing would copy my gesture.....<br>

Since the ST-E2 was handy, but generally unreliable and expensive, I invested in a flash bracket, and also acquired a Metz 76, a very powerful handle mount flash. None of these solutions are what I would call lightweight or speedy, but they allowed me to mount the softbox or other diffuser on camera, but at a higher angle. The convenience between holding a flash in my left hand while attempting to zoom and frame with my right, over just having the flash on camera, is worth it, especially in a crowded club.<br>

Personally I think ceiling bounce in a club is a waste of time unless it has a low ceiling, and usually they are painted black which gives an awful colour cast. Occasionally it can work, primarily if you want to fill the dancefloor with light for a crowd shot, and you want everything illuminated evenly from front to back. I would not use any modifier that throws some light to the ceiling and some forward, stick with an on camera softbox or one of those clam-shell type diffuser. In the strobies kit there is also an on camera beauty dish if you want to get really fancy, but it is only good for close up portraits as it is so small.<br>

Regards FE lock, I agree with what others have said, avoid it. You will eventually learn how your modifiers behave on camera and figure out how much compensation to dial in quite quickly. Many times I shoot raw and intentionally overexpose, then dial back the skin tones in lightroom. This captures more detail in the blacks of clothing and helps with getting the most out of your contrast. I can't really say why but it seems to give better skin tones that way too. When I have hundreds of shots to take I may switch to jpeg and expose as normal. These modifiers actually look very flattering when slightly overexposed, even uncorrected, as they blow out wrinkles and blemishes. They look horrible when slightly underexposed.<br>

If you have lights in the club, drag the hell out of your shutter. If you have dry ice even better, if you go down to 1/15th or 1/6th at high enough iso, 1600 or 3200, using flash as the key, you will get a surreal effect, that isolates your subject in a patch of fog.<br>

All of the above refers to posed shots, not action shots.<br>

In summary, the main points I would emphasize would be:<br>

Only use modifiers that throw all the light forward.<br>

Drag the shutter.<br>

Don't be afraid of high iso when using flash as key, depending on the size of the final media.<br>

Invest in a flash bracket. (The softbox/modifier will need clearance from the body, especially if using a wide angle lens)<br>

Have plenty of spare batteries, or if you can afford it, invest in a power pack for the 580 for quicker recycling.<br>

Don't throw off-camera lighting out the window, but get your safety shots first with the lighting on camera. You will find that although being able to take the flash off camera only a few feet will make a difference, it may not be worth the hassle in a crowded club.<br>

Actually, the best advice I can give is to move up from nightclub photography as fast as you can, it is destroying my soul!<br>

It is however, great practice for other high pressure situations, dark wedding receptions etc.<br>

Kind regards,<br>

Cian Daly</p>

<p> </p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>I have been photographing in dark clubs regularly for about five years</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /><br>

Do you have a link to some of your photos?</p>

[cian_daly]

<p>I'm sorry, I'd feel too embarrassed to share them. They are on the facebook pages of various clubs, but very few would be worth sharing, at the end of the day they are composed, nicely lit snapshots, and every once in awhile you get a great portrait that makes that particular night worth it.</p>

[btmuir]

<p>With this type shooting learn to ride your flash exposure compensation<br>

After a while you will know what FEC settings will give you in a certain scene/clothing etc.</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>"<em>The IR assist on the flash is essential for focusing in a dark room. That's why the flash needs to be on your camera." </em><br /> <em></em> <br /> - if you used a Nikon CLS flash with the SC29 cord, the autofocus assist lamp is built-in the end of the cord that always sits in the camera hot shoe. This way you can place your off camera flash any place or direction you wish, and the AF assist beam will always help you.</p>

<p>In fact, some people just use the AF assist lamp on the SC29 cord without even using the flash to fire at all.</p>

<p>Ask Canon to make a cord like the Nikon SC29 ?, or is there a cord like that already ?<em></em></p>

[pete_s.]

<p>I sometimes use another approach that is way more reliable, even when it's extremely dark, but much harder to master. It's very cool and oldskool :-)</p>

<p>You simply preset the focus to the distance required by what you intend to shoot and how you intend to frame it. A real manual focus prime lens is preferable for this.</p>

<p>Exposure is set manually to what you want.</p>

<p>Then you set your flash to manual mode and set the power to what you have tried out to be the right amount for the distance.</p>

<p>Then you just aim the camera at the subject, lift the flash in the proper position and fire.</p>

<p>No need to look in the viewfinder (as it's too dark anyway). Your focus will be correct, the exposure will be correct and because there are no preflashes your subjects will never blink or have partially closed eyes.</p>

<p>You need to learn the coverage of your prime lens, what distance a specific subject and framing will result in and how much flash power needed for that distance. You may also need learn how to set the focus distance in the dark without looking although I found that white gaffa on the lens with distance markings work much better than your typical black lens.</p>

<p>PS. There's a famous street photographer/PJ in New York that shoot this way (everything preset and with flash), not in the dark though. Maybe someone knows his name? There are videos on youtube where you can see him in action. He's very, very fast.</p>

[dave_wilson1]

<p>What Pete said is what I do very often. Set my 20 year old Tamron SP zoom to a certain footage and use the flash with a drag shutter at about 800 ISO. You have to keep it practical and go with the flow.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I agree with Pete--it is a very successful old school technique, one I used to use shooting dancing at weddings with my TLR. There are only two issues to consider.</p>

<p>1. It is pretty hard to pre-set distance on the 16-35mm. The scale is so small, that it is hard to determine increments, even marking the lens. I know--I've tried it. There is a marking for 3 feet, but then it goes from there to infinity in less than 1/4". You would think that it shouldn't matter too much, with the deep DOF with wide angles. However, it isn't easy to consistently hit the right spot. So if you don't mind going pretty small on aperture, it might work OK. You might get a prime lens, which might have a wider scale.</p>

<p>My Sigma 24mm prime has a marking for 3 feet and 5 feet, so that might be better.</p>

<p>2. It is also hard to hit exactly, just the right amount of manual flash, since digital is sensitive to thirds of a stop. However, you should be able to get within a stop of exactly the right exposure, and with today's improved processing controls, get detail in post.</p>

<p>It sounds like it would be hard to memorize the distances, but really isn't. Wedding distances are generally near, middle and far (about 4-5 feet, about 7 feet, about 10 feet), over and over again. That's only 3 f-stops to memorize for a given EV. Just figure out what your most used distances are, and get to those distances so you'll be correct.</p>

<p>In other words, you see something happening 10 feet away, but you want to be closer for the shot. While quickly walking to 7 feet from your subject, preset the lens and/or flash and then shoot. Or preset the lens and flash and then scan your target field, scooting to your 7 feet (or whatever) distance when you see action you want. For nightclubs, I'd think the distance would be much closer.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>. . . continuing the theme, I have used this method also, with EF Lenses and Digital Cameras.</p>

<p>It can be quite accurate and give good results even with a zoom lens like the 16 to 35, however, the two (Canon) Wide Primes I find best suited apropos Distance Scales are the 35/1.4 and the 24/1.4. The 50/1.4 is good also.</p>

<p>My method:<br /> <a href="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/15671931-md.jpg">I carry and use a small LED “book-light” which has a pocket clip: I use this to illuminate the lens / distance scale window for any preset changes I need to make under dim light, in situ. </a><br /> Using the distance numbers in metres is better for the Canon EF Lenses as those numerals are White – the Feet Numerals are Green.<br /> Prior to the event, I set up the distances by using AF in good light at the distances I require and then I mark on the lens my alignment mark for the distances I have calculated. I tend to use similar distances to those which Nadine has mentioned. <br /> I tape over the scale window with clear cello tape and to mark where the White Numeral “1” (on the meters distance scale) will align on the turret, for my distances.</p>

<p><a href="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/15671930-md.jpg">Therefore, provided I look 90degrees down onto the lens: the Numeral “1” will fit under one of those three black markings for any one of the three distances I have pre-defined. </a> <br /> I find this method much easier than actually attempting to read the actual distance marking in situ.<br /> This method can be used with the 16 to 35L, as that lens does have a white numeral “1” in the meters distance scale – but the method is not 100% accurate as there is very little play at that end of the focussing turret. But I find this method is more accurate the finer tipped marker you use (I did a rough job with a thick marker for the sample picture) and the method is much more accurate than trying to guess where, for example, 7ft actually is on the 16 to 35, by using the distance scale in situ.</p>

<p>For the Flash, when using this method I still tend to use my old Metzs, those with the quick release bracket and a bounce card, though now I use my very treasured “baseball mitt” as the bounce, which is a white foam scoop about 10” in diameter – it works really well. The method works fine with 580's also.</p>

<p>I believe this is one (perhaps the only) technique where on the balance of outcomes when using digital - it pays to land a fraction under exposed, if you are going to be wrong.</p>

<p>I find being at about ISO 400 ~800 is a nice safe ISO raneg, allowing plenty of scope (good aperture range yet allowing some shutter drag to capture spot lights or other bright specs and spots, etc) for this technique with most modern digital cameras and a Flash Unit with reasonable power.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[dave_wilson1]

<p>I just use either the TTL on one body and the auto-eye on my old Nikon SB-25, very accurate works fine. I shot manual Lumedynes for years, so I can use manual flash very efficiently, but for the digital and the accurate sensors, why is it needed? JMO do whatever makes you happy.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>There's a famous street photographer/PJ in New York that shoot this way (everything preset and with flash), not in the dark though. Maybe someone knows his name?</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Bruce Gilden. A lot of street photographers think he gives street photography a bad name, others revere him.<br>

<br /><br>

Back to the original topic though...this isn't a wedding question and the shooting may be very different than weddings. A lot of nightclub shoots don't allow pre-set distances. I do after-parties in nightclubs and there is no way I could choose the distance. People are constantly in motion, a group slides behind the subject(s) and they move forward and you can't move back. Dancing pushes the photographer around.</p>

<p>My approach in these situations is to use TTL and drag the shutter, although there may be too little light here. I do set the shutter and aperture manually, but let the flash logic do its thing. Pre-flashing isn't an issue - the 580EXII the OP is using doesn't pre-flash for focus, and the TTL preflash is so fast I've never seen anyone shut their eyes because of it.</p>

[pete_s.]

 

<blockquote>

<p>Bruce Gilden. A lot of street photographers think he gives street photography a bad name, others revere him.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks for the name Jeff!</p>

<p> </p>

[Dave Gardner]

<p>Wow....there's a lot of great advise on this thread. That's what i love about Photo.net</p>

[studio460]

<p>Although I own a Nikon SC-29 with the built-in IR illuminator, I don't rely on it much since I'm often never in the particular focus mode where it works. I shot a night exterior recently and had to have an assistant hold a flashlight on my subject to focus. In the future, I plan to mount an LED flashlight on my flash bracket with a pressure-switch (the kind used for firearms) for focusing in dark clubs. I believe it's the only reliable way to nail focus in pitch-black clubs when your selected focus mode prohibits using the IR illuminator.</p>

[benniehoff]

<p>I'll chime in on the full-manual, zone-focusing method. I have a bit of experience capturing swing dancers in dark venues this way.</p>

<p>ISO 800, 20mm lens stopped down to f/11, shutter speed 1/30 to 1/80, set manual focus to around 2 meters. Off-camera manual flash at around 1/4 power, held arm's length above head and pointed directly at subject.</p>

<p>I don't bother looking through the viewfinder; just watch the action and click at the right moment. It helps to shoot on the beat or when the music does something interesting. That's usually when dancers look the most interesting.</p>