On location lighting options

studio460 · February 21, 2012

Ian--great article! Thanks for posting that!

studio460 · February 21, 2012

Marc:

I'm not planning to invest the money in a four-head Quadra kit just yet (as much as I would love to own a set of those), but I am willing to finance a couple of Elinchrom D-lite IT 400s, and power them with the Vagabond Mini Lithium packs I already own. Elinchrom's spec sheet says that the "[D-lite's] Reflector Bayonet--fits EL-Accessories." And, that, "[the D-lite] accepts Rotolux softboxes up to 135cm." Does that mean the D-Lite has a "standard" Elinchrom bayonet?

rob_h5 · February 22, 2012

Even of his own sample image Marc wrote:

</blockquote>

It was a further discussion of the merits of more powerful off-camera light beyond just over-powering the sun...

</blockquote>

Marc was only giving an example of what can be done outside of overpower the sun and you are taking what he said out of context.

there is no reason to have it 15+ feet away slow flash sync camera (?) have not even entered the equation overpowering everything in the background is pretty much what we're talking about - whether thats indoors or outdoors.

</blockquote>

Ian, again your just not reading what people are saying here. The OP specifically wants to overpower the sun with the correct strobe lights. No one knows what camera the OP is or isnt using it could be 35mm or large format requiring more light in the f11 or more, it could have a slow flash sync at 1/60s. You need to have enough light for the camera being used. Shooting under 10ft is extremely limiting. And this is not a question for indoor situations.

fotografz · February 22, 2012

Ralph, as I understand it, the EL mount is the standard Elinchrom mount ... where the Quadra mount is smaller and requires a separate adapter to use standard EL mount modifiers. It is odd that they say the D-Lites only accept up to 135cm Rotolux boxes ... which is 4.5 feet. Have you seen these lights in person? I'd be cautious about the build quality or weight bearing ability as it may limit later use of big soft-boxes if you want. Just sayin'

Most people probably get these lights to use with various umbrellas ... and even then you have to get the narrower 7mm shaft versions for use with Elinchrom strobes. The good news is that the new Westcott 7' so called Parabolic umbrellas are 7mm shafts! Come in silver, white and translucent.

Also, if you haven't already checked, I'd contact Paul C. Buff to make sure the Vagabond Minis will work with these lights to no ill effect ... or if they are reluctant to endorse the idea, see if you can locate someone that has powered the D-Lites with these batteries.

Hope this helps a bit ...

-Marc

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Thanks for your reply, Marc. So, "standard" umbrella shafts (Photoflex, etc.) are 8mm, and the 7mm shafts are unique to Elinchrom umbrellas? Yes, I understand about the weight issue for softboxes, and no, I haven't actually seen a D-lite in person.

Actually, Paul C. Buff forum moderators are very generous with any knowledge of other products. I've used my Vagabond Minis with both my Speedotron Force 10, and Dynalite Uni400 Jr., and it works fine--I assume they work with most any AC monolight. I was interested in the D-lites because their specs state that they operate at voltages as low as 90VAC, which would extend the life of an inverter even longer. Plus, I really like Elinchrom modifiers in general, and would like to acquire some EL heads to use them with. Plus, the price sure is right for the D-lites.

fotografz · February 22, 2012

Good investigative research Ralph.

FYI, I did find out that the Mini's cannot be used with Profoto Compacts, but will drive the Profoto D1s when set to Battery. So, not all monos can be used.

I agree, some of the Elinchrom modifiers are excellent. I have a number of them left over from when I used Elinchrom, and have since bought a few more. I can use them on the Quadra with the EL Adapter, but more importantly, I can also use them on the Profoto lights I now use because Profoto makes an adapter.

In particular are the newer 27.5" and 39" Rotolux Deep Octs ... super quality of light, and so easy to set-up and tear-down. They'd work nicely on those lights you are considering : -)

Best of luck,

-Marc

picturesque · February 22, 2012

I have a question for you, Marc. How does the depth of the Deep Octs affect light quality?

fotografz · February 22, 2012

Hi Nadine, I think that the depth and a more parabolic oval type shape (like the skinny end of an egg) helps reduce the spread of light ... so the effect is, that for its size, it intensifies and controls the light more than a more narrow depth spherically shaped modifier of the same size.

Up close to the subject, very clean light with less spill (soft if the diffuser(s) are used)... further away, more intensity at any given distance. Kind of like the difference between a standard strobe reflector and the magnum types ... which are deeper.

I got the smaller 27.5" one to use on the little 400w/s Quadra to help control the light a little better, and increase light output a bit over other choices. How it sets up and folds down is ingenious.

rob_h5 · February 22, 2012

I assume they (Vagabond battery) work with most any AC monolight.

</blockquote>

Ralph, do not assume anything when it comes to using AC studio strobes on battery inventers of different manufacturers.

One guy lost his monolight plugging it into a Vagabond battery inverter (read threads below) and I have heard of similiar stories with other bad inverters damaging AC studio strobes. Its great that it worked so far with the Speedotron and Dynalite. I am just saying be careful as you may lose your light... just dont plug every AC studio strobe you come across in to the Vagabond especially since Alien Bees will not recommend you to use other studio strobes on the Vagabond besides their Alien Bee brand. I do understand how frustrating location lighting can be with looking for portable power!... so if you must use a battery inverter choose a good one like the Dynalite XP-1100, Innovatronix (they have studio light compatibility chart on their website) or other high quality DC/AC pure sine inverters. <a href="00Zv6C" rel="nofollow">http://www.photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00Zv6C</a> <a href="00ZzAz" rel="nofollow">http://www.photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00ZzAz</a>

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Rob:

Thanks for the head's up. The unit mentioned in the second link is a house-branded Bowens, I believe. Here's a recent reply from a Buff tech support person on their user forum:

"If there is no digital component (like an LCD or LED display), then the light will probably work. If it does have a digital processor, then it may or it may not. We have not tested every model of flash on the market, so we cannot speak in absolutes. It does appear [the OP's] flash is an analogue [unit], and will probably work. You are welcome to order one, and you have 60 days to return it if it does not meet your needs for any reason." --Paul C. Buff technical support

</blockquote>

Obviously, your caveats are a bit unnerving; however, I could find no significant number of posts reporting similar issues during a quick Google search (that's not to say they don't exist). At least one other customer reported successful operation with the same Speedotron unit I own. Tests have also shown successful use of the Vagabond Mini with Elinchrom D-lite 400Ws units (which I plan to buy). Obviously, you're safest using the inverter with Buff strobes. Apparently, the deep drop in voltage after firing can damage some strobes, but I'm unclear as to why, or how to determine if a particular strobe design is more, or less, susceptible to this effect (other than the "non-digital" advisory in the forum post).

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Now, in light of Rob's post, here's what I'm thinking for portable power:

1. Dynalite Uni400 Jr.; 400Ws: Use Jackrabbit II I already own + buy another and re-cell. 2. Elinchrom D-Lite 4 IT; 400Ws: VMLs? 3. Speedotron Force 10; 1,000Ws: Buy Tronix Explorer XT SLA-type inverter ($309)

I think I recall one other photographer also successfully powering Dynalite Uni400 Jrs with VMLs, but I can't remember. I own one Jackrabbit II, so I'll probably stick with that, even though the Dynalite appears to run fine from the VML.

Photographer Rob Galbraith tested the Vagabond Mini Lithium (VML) with several Elinchrom units, including the D-Lite 4 IT. He managed 801 full-power, 400Ws pops with a VML without destroying it, so for the EL-4 IT, the VMLs may be a go. He did get an error message a few times from the 4 IT, requiring a re-boot of the strobe, but after that, it ran fine. Also, he eventually destroyed the VML after the tests with multiple other units.

The Speedotron Force 10 is pulling so much current at full-pop, it just scares me. I've used the VML with my Force 10 on only a handful of occassions, and everything worked fine. But, I think I better get an industrial-strength power solution for this rather expensive monolight. The Tronix is affordable and seems like it should do the trick.

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Correction:

Speedotron Force 10 is only compatible with XT3, Mini, XT SE Innovatronix inverters.

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Innovatronix compatibility chart:

http://www.innovatronix.com/compatib.asp

studio460 · February 22, 2012

Okay, I found another photographer, apparently, using a Dynalite Uni400 Jr. and a Vagabond Mini Lithium over a period of time with success: <a href="http://www.flickriver.com/photos/stormline/5671622974/">http://www.flickriver.com/photos/stormline/5671622974/</a>

So, I think the Dynalite is probably well-suited for use with the VMLs. Based on Rob Galbraith's tests, I would bet that the Elinchrom D-Lite 4 IT is also a candidate. Again, I chose the Dynalight and Speedotron monolights for their long t.5 values for optimizing HyperSync. I like the D-Lite 4 ITs for their ability to use Elinchrom modifiers, and as it happens, they also have a relatively long t.5 value (1/800th). Plus, they're hella affordable.

Contrastingly, the Buff Einstein E640s have a very short flash duration, so I initially didn't consider them. However, the E640 has one very attractive feature: the ability to dial down its power to only 4Ws. Shooting stealth-location, available-light, with an E640 on a boom pole, and a VML on my assistant's hip, would be a great (and safe) combination. Another plus--Einteins accept PocketWizard triggers, made specifically for the E640, the MC2, so I'll be able to use my existing TT1 transmitter to fire it. I guess I'll be buying an E640 soon . . .

ian_casement · February 23, 2012

Ian, again your just not reading what people are saying here. The OP specifically wants to overpower the sun with the correct strobe lights. No one knows what camera the OP is or isnt using it could be 35mm or large format requiring more light in the f11 or more, it could have a slow flash sync at 1/60s. You need to have enough light for the camera being used. Shooting under 10ft is extremely limiting. And this is not a question for indoor situations.

</blockquote>

Rob H,

If you actually Read what I've already written.. you will see that I actually asked the OP exactly what his interpretation of 'overpowering sunlight' was to pinpoint his needs rather than speculate randomly;

I wrote:

It would be interesting to see what the OP considers to be 'overpowering the sun' and what style he wishes to achieve as it may well be that a softbox could be inappropriate.

</blockquote>

'The correct strobe lights' as you infer are entirely dependant on needs - the OP wants to put a light on a pole with a softbox to over power the sun, and with a battery pack on his waist.. thats a pretty wide generalisation, but omits many battery powered strobes entirely.. What makes you think theres a huge hike in lighting requirements for large format? Shooting large format doesn't change the physics of any lighting situation - a required f11 would be a required f11 regardless of format at normal working distances - and in the highly unlikely event that anybody would ever be in the position of shooting a wedding on a large format camera, I doubt that even f11 would ever cause a problem - if they knew what they were doing. Where would a limitation of 1/60s maximum x-sync come from apart from a 1970's horizontal cloth FP shutter ?! These are just unnecessary objections.

Not a question for indoor situations? You're right.. there's no sun normally there to worry about, and ambient light levels are easier to take control of, but overpowering ambient inside is exactly the same as overpowering ambient outside. Only, on one hand you can't be calling it 'overpowering the light' and then on the other be calling it 'balancing the light' when the circumstances and results are exactly the same but to differing degrees.

Then theres packing the lighting.. the OP's 'able to carry the battery pack on 'my' waist' so that it's there when its needed. Already, it's been pointed out that even 400ws lighting doesn't get taken when the photographer works alone.. why not.. when lighting circumstances change just the same as when you have an assistant? I pack my 400ws quite easily when working alone and when it's considered needed, it fits on my waist and to my camera if thats required.. the point of having it is that it gets used when it's needed, not just when its convenient to carry.

The solution lies somewhere between a speedlight and a battery powered lighting pack and as Ralph points out - theres more than several solutions available - but not yet the 1200ws speedlight.

rob_h5 · February 23, 2012

Not a question for indoor situations? You're right.. there's no sun normally there to worry about, and ambient light levels are easier to take control of, but overpowering ambient inside is exactly the same as overpowering ambient outside.

What makes you think theres a huge hike in lighting requirements for large format?

but not yet the 1200ws speedlight.

</blockquote>

This is where we disagree. A 1200ws strobe light pack is exactly what is needed since the OP specifically wants to overpower the sun. Overpowering ambient inside is NOT exactly the same as overpowering ambient outside because you have the sun outdoors and a shooting distance under 10ft is very limited.

We all know the lighting situation is the same for whatever camera you use, f16 is f16 for example. The problem is that certain cameras have certain parameters. And these are real variables since we dont know what camera the OP wants to use. Most likely the OP is not using LF camera but a small percentage of professional photographers do still shoot in large format cameras (LF), there is an active large format forum thread right here at Photo.net so this lighting topic is not only for the OP but LF camera shooters as well. A common problem in the LF photography world and talked about in the forums is not having enough light either indoors or even outdoors, thats where 1200w/s - 2400w/s pack strobe lights and higher come in. Speedlights are not enough. And its not uncommon for LF photographers to shoot in the f11~f22 range, so an immense amount of light whether natural or flash is needed.

Vintage SLR film cameras with focal plane shutters, there are photographers that still use these cameras as well, and 1/60s flash sync speed would put you in the f16~f22 on a sunny day, again a ton of light will be needed to over power the sun and that is where 1200w/s is needed.

Ok lets forget film and talk about digital. Even a few large sensor full frame digital 35mm SLR cameras can only sync with studio strobes @1/60s ~ 1/125s (speedlights are a different story so this does not apply to that) again that would put you in the f16~f22 on a sunny day again a ton of light will be needed to over power the sun and thats where 1200w/s is needed.

Again as I have repeated said the OP may want to use a large softbox, maybe with diffusers or maybe other light modifiers all soaking up f-stops again more light is needed on a sunny day at midday or sun in view especially if any of the cameras are used above.

ian_casement · February 23, 2012

We all know the lighting situation is the same for whatever camera you use, f16 is f16 for example.

</blockquote>

So what was your point then?

Ok lets forget film and talk about digital. Even a few large sensor full frame digital 35mm SLR cameras can only sync with studio strobes @1/60s ~ 1/125s (speedlights are a different story so this does not apply to that) again that would put you in the f16~f22 on a sunny day again a ton of light will be needed to over power the sun and thats where 1200w/s is needed.

</blockquote>

I'm not one for throwing around figures which cannot be verified and I expect the same of others - especially when they persist in stating claims to reasons necessary to justify their position. What digital camera in everyday use can only sync at 1/60s (oh, I'd better just double that and up it to 1/125s) ? ... I bet it doesn't sell very many, and is nowhere near the norm. Full frame Canon? Nikon? What? Even the Canon 5DII (probably the worst shutter for x-sync on a FF you might find) will happily manage 1/160s with a radio trigger, and even then.. outside.. bright sunlight.. do you reckon you'll see any shutter shadows when the intention is to overpower the sun anyway?

Why are speedlights 'a different story'? They respond the same to a sync signal as do studio strobes. Whatever problems you've encountered certainly don't exist in my experience. Which studio strobes have issues?

For goodness sake.. 'I would like to shoot full length wedding receptions (as well as location shots) and portraiture, using the strobe to fill, as well as overpowering sunlight. Portability? Able to carry a battery pack on my waist... and I'm shooting a vintage film camera or a full frame (top range) digital camera which is/are not capable of syncing faster than 1/60s'.. is little more than far fetched.

fotografz · February 23, 2012

Ian, you wrote:

"Not only does output power of the flash come into play, (with not only high output flash being capable of this) but so too the proximity of the source. Anybody who contends this is deluded."

Huh? Aside from the semi-insulting language, I don't think this is what you meant. Maybe "contests this" or something to that effect? Which, BTW, I don't contest.

No where did I say the term Over-Powering-The Sun is synonymous with Light Balance ... you jumped to that rigid conclusion and held onto it. I said that it is commonly understood to be the objective of over-powering the Sun ... as when I said:

"Brides don't know the difference if it's done skillfully ... all you are doing is balancing the light better, and with white-out skies and blown backgrounds it sometimes requires a lot of carefully placed light on the subject."

To quote from the site you linked to ... "So you are not going to be able to eliminate the sun as a lighting element, so the question is begged how to augment it."

Augment it to what purpose? The author then goes on to produce balanced images by over-powering the bright ambient while putting enough light on the subject ... with the intent to make it look as natural as possible by means of amount and direction. That isn't the same as my interior example where I used 320w/s to overpower the tungsten ambient completely, and with it eliminate the background clutter. Over-power in this context had a different creative objective. Over-powering is relative to your creative objectives ... more or less being a subjective decision, not always as an absolute as you seem to suggest ... which if rigidly followed would mean black backgrounds for any Over-Powered scenario

Generally, outdoors on a bright day, natural looking light balance is the objective, and sometimes over-powering the sun is the method necessary to achieve that objective. I still contend (not contest), THAT is the objective of over-powering the sun as commonly refered to. Running debates as to terminology simply obfuscate what is a simple concept as it is commonly understood and used in photography.

People that think they can deepen a whited out sky to get a nice rich blue with fluffy white clouds, and overcome a 1-PM nuclear blasted background using a 70w/s speedlight in a softbox mounted on a light pole, using a little hip-mounted battery are going to be disappointed.

rob_h5 · February 23, 2012

What digital camera in everyday use can only sync at 1/60s (oh, I'd better just double that and up it to 1/125s) ? ... I bet it doesn't sell very many, and is nowhere near the norm.

</blockquote>

Actually I was specifically referring to the Canon 5DMKII. Not sell many? Are you kidding? The Canon 5DMKII is one of the top selling full frame digital cameras in the market! It just has a slow flash sync with studio strobes. Here is straight out of the Canon 5DMKII manual:

Canon 5DMKII manual: "With large studio flash units, since the flash duration is longer, set the sync speed within 1/60 sec to 1/30sec. Be sure to test the flash synchronization before shooting."

</blockquote>

Thats straight from the Canon manual, the manufacturer's recommendation for the Canon 5DMKII full frame digital camera . But lets say with studio strobes it can sync fine with the Canon 5DMKII at 1/125s or even 1/160 for outdoor use. My point is not every camera can sync with a studio strobe a 1/250s, every camera is different. With the speedlights it will sync much higher than that of course but we are only talking about studio strobes.

People that think they can deepen a whited out sky to get a nice rich blue with fluffy white clouds, and overcome a 1-PM nuclear blasted background using a 70w/s speedlight in a softbox mounted on a light pole, using a little hip-mounted battery are going to be disappointed.

</blockquote>

Exactly Marc! This is what Ian doesnt seem to understand. Especially on a super bright day at around mid noon, and you want a deep DOF of the landscape without a blown out background, or shooting full body shots at more than 10ft. Its exactly that lighting situtation where the extra wattage of 1200w/s portable studio strobe lights are needed.

ian_casement · February 23, 2012

Marc Williams wrote: (page 4)

I'm not talking about fill flash which is used to fill shadows and lower contrast on the subject, and I disagree that "balancing light" is incorrect terminology. If you aren't balancing the light between foreground and background then what are you doing? Blowing out the subject while grossly underexposing the background? What does overpowering the sun mean to you if it isn't balancing an extreme dynamic range difference?

</blockquote>

Overpowering the sun is not 'balancing the light'. It is an intentional increase of flash on the subject which renders the background darker. Theres no blowing out of the subject as your aperture is adjusted to accomodate the increased output. Thus, the background is made darker. In doing so, you have overpowered the sun.

fotografz · February 23, 2012

Who cares Ian?

Everone probably knows exactly what the end result of over-powering the sun should look like, and all of this academic banter worthy of a room full of stuffed shirts is just a waste of time.

Call it anything you want, define it anyway you want ... I couldn't possibly care any less.

ian_casement · February 24, 2012

You couldn't care less.. Even though you were the one insisting on the 'balancing the light' analogy? If you didn't care less sooner based on the understanding of 'everyone' - then this could have been avoided all together.

studio460 · February 24, 2012

Rob said:

Ralph, do not assume anything when it comes to using AC studio strobes on battery inventers of different manufacturers . . . one guy lost his monolight plugging it into a Vagabondbattery inverter (read threads below) . . . just dont plug every AC studio strobe you come across in to the Vagabond . . . <a href="00ZzAz" rel="nofollow">http://www.photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00ZzAz</a>

</blockquote>

Again, thanks for sage advice; however, I did want to note a couple things:

1.) The member which burned up his Calumet 750R Travelite was using a Vagabond II (Buff's older, SLA-based inverter), not a Vagabond Mini Lithium.

2.) I happened to find another photographer's blog, who coincidentally, also happened to be using a Calumet 750R Travelite with the VML, with apparent success. Read his blog here:

http://www.robandrewphoto.com/blog/tech/location-lighting-vagabond-mini-lithium-with-travelite-750

It's possible that the VML did burn up his Travelite, too, and that he just hasn't updated his blog with that information.

Now, I'm not trying to dispute your warnings, I'm just trying to see how commonly this is occurring. Of course, the safest bet is to just buy a Paul C. Buff E640, and be done with it (which I'll probably end up doing anyway). But the output from my Dynalite Uni400 Jr. will be greater if I power it from a VML, rather than the Jackrabbit II. I do think the Dynalite can "take it," based on another photographer's blog (linked earlier in this thread) who appears to have been using the Dynalite/VML combo over some period of time. Hopefully, the D-lites can survive the VMLs as well (I may even try to "sacrifice" one D-lite, to see if in fact I can burn it up with a VML).

But, I've been Googling as many relevant search terms I can think of, and either no one is 'fessing up, or damage to other manufacturers' strobes just isn't that common with the Vagabond Mini Lithium inverter. That said, your warning did scare me enough not to continue to power my Speedotron Force 10 from a VML, and I'm considering the Innovatronix product for that particular strobe instead.

studio460 · February 24, 2012

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links to other forums, but there's a very interesting thread on the subject of using VMLs with non-Buff branded strobes:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/974770

Paul Buff himself makes several posts in the thread, and actually alludes to the Innovatronix compatibility chart as a sort of guide for VMLs as well (as I suspected). He even goes so far as to make the statement, "We have never had a report of a VML or Vagabond damaging a light." This was posted on 22 January 2011.

studio460 · February 24, 2012

I didn't even realize that the PocketWizard PowerMC2 receiver, designed for the Paul C. Buff Einstein E640 monolight, in addition to merely firing the strobe, can also remotely control power output, via your camera's flash exposure compensation adjustment, as shown in this PocketWizard video:

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/tutorials/mc2/

Now, there's three reasons for me to get an Einstein E640: 1. Guaranteed to work with the Vagabond Mini Lithium inverter/battery without damaging the strobe. 2. PowerMC2 supports remote power control, and works with the PocketWizard MiniTT1 transmitter I already own. 3. E640 has a minimum power output of only 4Ws.

A inverter/battery-powerable strobe with this kind of power range would be excellent for shooting the kind of exteriors on-location I'm planning, especially when attempting to match lowered, ambient light levels at dusk or magic hour, where you often need less output than a typical monolight's minimum output.

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