On location lighting options

[fotografz]

<p>No defense of the Quantum system required Ian. It is obviously a sophisticated system that serves your requirements, no debate there.</p>

<p>My only fundamental disagreement is that most of it is not needed, nor do a vast majority of pro shooters or studios use complex TTL systems such as this, yet literally accomplish every lighting solution needed. While lighting can be sophisticated, it need not be complex to impliment.</p>

<p>I'm also not a fan of lighting systems that cannot grow if one desires it ... <em>which isn't discussed very often when making lighting recommendations.</em> If a beginner steps up to decent lights in the first place, and makes sure they have that growth option, then they don't have to start all over if and when they want to expand. If they find lighting is not for them, used decent lighting is always in demand and can be sold. Unfortunately, I learned that expensive lesson the hard way myself.</p>

<p>For example, if one selects a $1,500 basic Quadra kit, it is the absolute bottom of the endlessly expandable Elinchrom system. Want to step up to battery powered 1,100w/s pack? Done. Want to add 1,200, 2,400 or 4,800w/s of studio power. Done. Every One of the EL light modifiers will work on any Elinchrom pack or mono head ... and the choices of modifiers to solve any creative notion is mind boggling.</p>

<p>BTW, I'm not advocating the Quadra ... while I have one, I'm primarily a Profoto user, supplemented by some Hensel battery equipment that uses the same Profoto AIR radio controls ... any and all Elinchrom light modifiers I have for the Quadra also work on any Profoto pack or mono head. This cross integration provides the most creative freedom to solve most any pictorial idea I may want to light.</p>

<p>BTW, I think Paul C. Buff has made incredible strides in providing the ability to start simple and inexpensive, and still allow a good measure of growth in future. An Einstein 640w/s mono, CyberSync radio controller/receiver set, and Vagabond Mini lithium battery comes to $1,000 total ... and out-powers both the Quadra and Quantum 400w/s units for less investment. </p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Just noticed your additional post Ian ... that example wasn't a debate of "this verses that" the way you took it with your response ... and I clearly labeled it as such. </p>

<p>It was a further discussion of the merits of more powerful off-camera light beyond just over-powering the sun ... and it wouldn't matter if it was a 400w/s Quantum, Quadra, Profoto 600B, Einstein, or whatever brand floats your boat. It was for the OP's consideration not yours.</p>

<p>Use your Quantum in good heath ... I'll use my choices the same.</p>

<p> </p>

[ian_casement]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm also not a fan of lighting systems that cannot grow if one desires it ... <em>which isn't discussed very often when making lighting recommendations.</em> ...........</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Thats pretty much what I already said.. existing speedlights can control remote Quantums or remote speedlights can be controlled by Quantums. I don't know of any other system which can do this. Growing normally starts at the lower end and keeping compatibility with existing equipment and utilising it is just as paramount here as potentially in the future. However, when it comes to studio work or location sets the remote radio control goes straight out the window as it's not needed and the lighting becomes more complex. Walking up to a power pack, adjusting it and realigning it is far simpler. But where the remote control wins is in dynamic situations where you have movement or accessing lighting is inappropriate.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>For example, if one selects a $1,500 basic Quadra kit, it is the absolute bottom of the endlessly expandable Elinchrom system. Want to step up to battery powered 1,100w/s pack? Done. Want to add 1,200, 2,400 or 4,800w/s of studio power. Done. Every One of the EL light modifiers will work on any Elinchrom pack or mono head ... </p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Thats what speedrings are for. They fit every lighthead conceivable.</p>

<p>It would be difficult to adapt them to 3k focus spots or striplights or pencil lights, and they won't manage to emulate a 20K Strobe City Swimming Pool, but lets keep this in perspective.. the OP wants something to stick on the end of a pole that he can carry and use 'to overpower the sun' but thats pretty unrealistic in the brightest of daylight unless *thats* the only purpose of the light - which I really doubt. I really expect that the suggestion of a Quantum by the OP was more of the 160ws variety with a turbo battery keeping the speedlite like form factor and operation but with more output. Most users tend to go this way - which is fine - but I find if you're going to be carrying a battery pack - it might as well be useful and provide the greatest amount of output you can get and carry.</p>

<p>Of all the posters in this thread, there doesn't seem to be any advocates or uses of the 'softbox and overpowering the sun' technique at weddings that I've found anywhere.. I've done it during a winter wedding with speedlights on a grey flat day, but the 'look' of an overpowered sun in summer doesn't strike me as something a bride would particularly desire? Maybe thats why most versions you see are sunset/evening types. Heres the speedlight on a grey flat day version:<br>

<img src="http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/_DSC3322-1-600px.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>BTW, I'm not advocating the Quadra ... while I have one, I'm primarily a Profoto user, supplemented by some Hensel battery equipment that uses the same Profoto AIR radio controls ... any and all Elinchrom light modifiers I have for the Quadra also work on any Profoto pack or mono head. This cross integration provides the most creative freedom to solve most any pictorial idea I may want to light.<br>

My only fundamental disagreement is that most of it is not needed, nor do a vast majority of pro shooters or studios use complex TTL systems such as this, yet literally accomplish every lighting solution needed.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>My goto location kit comprises of 6 Quantums with a Trio and Pilot controller and 6 Lumedynes with up to 10 heads. The Quantum radio system provides sync for me throughout the range even if mixing TTL and Manual and even for speedlights, studio packs or monolights, but I have to be honest and say that when it comes to shooting in the studio the built-in slaves of the studio packs and monolights are more than adequate with a simple IR transmitter for sync as any automation there is totally unnecessary. </p>

[fotografz]

<p>As I mentioned Ian, use your 6 Quantums, trio and pilot controller, 6 Lumedynes and 10 heads, in good health. Personally, I'd hate lugging all that stuff around.</p>

<p><em>"Of all the posters in this thread, there doesn't seem to be any advocates or uses of the 'softbox and overpowering the sun' technique at weddings that I've found anywhere."</em></p>

<p>Happens all the time because wedding shooters can't always pick the time or place pictures are taken. Despite your comment, Brides don't know the difference if it's done skillfully ... all you are doing is balancing the light better, and with white-out skies and blown backgrounds it sometimes requires a lot of carefully placed light on the subject. Not that hard of a concept to understand.</p>

<p> </p>

[ian_casement]

<p>I understand the concept, but you seem to be explaining fill flash or just balancing the light rather than 'overpowering the sun' which are two distinctly different things. </p>

<p>It would be interesting to see what the OP considers to be 'overpowering the sun' and what style he wishes to achieve as it may well be that a softbox could be inappropriate.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>That may be true Ian ... interpretations can differ. I have always taken the idea of overpowering the sun to simply mean shooting against the sun on a bright day ... sometimes even with the sun in the frame. This is often seen in Ski-Jump shots or other extreme sports shot for dramatic effect ... and its happened to me at beach weddings with harsh backgrounds and sun reflections on the water behind the couple.</p>

<p>I'm not talking about fill flash which is used to fill shadows and lower contrast on the subject, and I disagree that "balancing light" is incorrect terminology. If you aren't balancing the light between foreground and background then what are you doing? Blowing out the subject while grossly underexposing the background? What does overpowering the sun mean to you if it isn't balancing an extreme dynamic range difference?</p>

<p>I contend that most people see "over-powering the sun" as just that ... shooting against the sun on a bright day, which is an extreme requiring more light on the subject than a speed-light or even some smaller battery packs can deliver. I have no idea what else it could be.</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Because time and control (of light and situations) are both in extremely short supply at most weddings, IMHO, one must choose lighting gear that will allow one to come close to the kind of lighting envisioned, within those limitations, and without regard to other applications.</p>

<p>I work alone, and don't have assistants to lug gear around, so I stick to very portable gear that I can manage myself. I shoot weddings in California and face direct sun all the time. I use on camera flash plus a single Sunpak 120J, direct, outside in bright sun. Obviously, it isn't the nicest lighting, since it isn't modified. However, used wisely it provides directionality and enough light. I know the shortcomings, so I do other things to ease the shortcomings. I use the 120Js and other shoemounts for receptions.</p>

<p>When I am not under the gun at a wedding, I can do other things with more powerful lights. I don't expect my 120Js to suffice, although they can do quite a lot. If I need 2400 ws, I get 2400 ws lights.</p>

<p>If I were choosing a portable system today, I'd probably be looking at the Buff gear, or Lumedynes or Quadras--but not with an eye toward expansion--with an eye toward exactly fitting my needs for weddings. I've really slimmed down what I will haul around at weddings, but I stop short of using only shoemounts. That's where my comfort level is.</p>

<p>Your comfort level, expectations and priorities might be different. I would be making a list of priorities describing your ideal lights and then go find them, or whatever is closest, keeping in mind that they probably won't overpower the sun if they are to be used with modifiers on and off camera and for weddings.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Here's what I do with my Sunpak 120J.</p><div></div>

[ian_casement]

<p>Overpowering the sun is making your own lighting the most powerful lightsource in the scene and on the subject with the result of reducing the ambient light by some amount and making it appear darker than it actually is. Your exposure is then based on your flash being correct and the ambient reduced. Balancing the subject and background or filling shadows to lower contrast only comprise of using equal or less power in your flash than the sun provides or the ambient.</p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>That is your definition Ian, not everyones.</p>

<p>I agree that overpowering the sun obviously means using lighting so the sun is no longer the overwhelmingly dominate source of light, but do not agree that that doing that doesn't involve the principles of light balance to avoid an over-flashed look and feel. In other words, I may have to over-power the sun to bring an image into a better light balance so the camera's limited dynamic range of capture can actually record the scene ... which on a very bright day, or with the sun in the frame, <strong>always involves correct subject lighting and reduced ambient.</strong> IMO, over-powering the sun is just referencing the degree of light output needed to do that.<br>

<br>

I agree with Nadine, it's a personal choice as to what degree a wedding shooter may use lighting. How powerful is be based on conditions one faces, and ability to physically carry it. Nadine works alone, I often do not ... so my comfort zone and options are wider. When working alone and I know the lighting will not be severely out of balance, I usually take the same rig as Nadine ... a 120J and Quantum Turbo C clipped to the stand ... but I still take more powerful options with me because weddings can frequently change. </p>

<p>If one knows they will be doing a beach wedding and the time of day directional nature of the sun in relationship to the subjects, then more powerful options may be needed. Also, the degree one may want to modify the light, the size of the modifier, and distance to the subject will affect how much light output will be needed. Just watch any of the video tutorials put out by Profoto or Bron, or Elinchrom for example to see modifiers used on location ... soft-boxes, beauty dishes, deep octas ... each are creative options when shooting on location ... weddings, fashion, extreme sports, commercial. </p>

<p>The reference to expanded lighting abilities later is based on the growing trend of diversity ... many wedding photographers are expanding into other areas. Only the photographer knows if that may apply to them now or in future. </p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Further indications as to the use of the term "Light Balance" from a different thread on this forum ... from professional photographer Matthew Seed's website </p>

<p>http://www.horse-photographer.co.uk/style-dramatic.html<br>

<em>"The style is achieved using a <strong>balance of both natural light and flash</strong> photography techniques."</em><br>

http://www.horse-photographer.co.uk/style-home.html<br>

<em>"The technique is shot by day using a flash head and <strong>balancing this with available light</strong>..."</em><br>

<em>: -)</em></p>

[ian_casement]

<p>We're talking <strong>'overpowering the sun'</strong>.</p>

<p><strong>Overpower - a verb - means 'overcome by superior force'</strong> <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=overpowering&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=16E-T9j0Asel0QXU_vSrDw#hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=overpower&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=16E-T5bICsnH0QWG5pmsDw&ved=0CC0QkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=72548892f4215ecf&biw=1260&bih=698">overpowering</a></p>

<p><strong>Whatever value sunlight provides on your subject, if you provide a higher value using flash, then you are 'overpowering the sun'.</strong> This obviously varies. On overcast grey days less 'superior force' is required, on bright days more is required. Since the accepted value of bright sunlight is the equivalent of 100ISO @ 1/100s @ f16, and most cameras can sync at 1/250s, then the highest equivalent value of bright sunlight at this shutterspeed is 100ISO @ 1/250s @f10.</p>

<p><strong>If your flash is capable of producing f10 on your subject on a bright day</strong> you can be pretty certain that you are balancing bright sun, or balancing the light.. i.e. bright sun = flash output.</p>

<p><strong>If your flash is capable of producing greater than f10 on your subject on a bright day</strong> then you can quite reasonably say that in this situation you are overpowering the sun.</p>

<p><strong>Speedlights can produce f10 on a subject at around 10 feet using a 50mm zoom level.</strong> Any closer to the subject than this and they can be said to be 'overpowering the sun' if they are being used at full power.</p>

<p>Increasing the distance or adding a modifier will reduce this ability which is where higher output devices are required. Further than 10 feet - you need more. Adding a modifier - you need more.</p>

<p>10 feet is a very close distance. By 14 feet you are underexposed by -1 stop, and at 20 feet you are underexposed by -2 stops. if everything you shoot is within 10-14 feet you should be OK with a bare speedlight, anything more, or with modifiers, you will need more output.</p>

<p><strong>A 400ws unit @ 10ft from a subject with a 120x100 softbox will balance a bright sun lit background</strong> with a full shadowed subject where flash=ambient=sun.</p>

<p><strong>Closer than 10ft, a 400ws unit and a 120x100 softbox will overpower the sun</strong> and the adjustment in aperture will make the surroundings darker, giving the 'overpowered sun' look. This is exactly the same principle at work in Mathew Seed's images where he uses a positive intentional in-balance of light.</p>

<p>Light balance and overpowering the sun are about as different as the <strong>misleading quote</strong> of:</p>

<p><em>"The style is achieved using a <strong>balance of both natural light and flash</strong> photography techniques."</em><br>

<strong>And the original:</strong><br>

<em><em>"The style is achieved using a <strong>balance of both natural light and flash photography techniques.</strong>"</em></em><br>

<em><em><br /></em></em><br>

<strong>And..</strong></p>

<blockquote>

<p><em><em>I may have to over-power the sun to bring an image into a better light balance so the camera's limited dynamic range of capture can actually record the scene ... which on a very bright day, or with the sun in the frame, </em><strong>always involves correct subject lighting and reduced ambient.</strong> IMO, over-powering the sun is just referencing the degree of light output needed to do that.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong>..is complete nonsense</strong> since overpowering the sun is not required at all to bring an image within a sensors range, in fact when both light sources are balanced you can't get any better reduced tonal range. <strong>BUT</strong>, overpowering the sun <strong>IS</strong> an increase in flash output over ambient and is a positive intentional flash output in-balance.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Wow! Lots of information in this thread! Very impressive, Nadine! (I know you love your Sunpak 120Js!). I have to review the entire thread, when I have more time, to glean any pearls of wisdom from everyone. For my needs, I bought three "levels" of strobes for various applications. For what it's worth, here's what I happened to acquire for daylight-exterior, on-location shooting:</p>

<p>1. 150Ws: Quantum Qflash Model T + Quantum Turbo ($150, used). Re-celled Turbo for $35 at BatteriesPlus--recycles like new!</p>

<p>2. 400Ws: Dynalite Uni400 Jr monolight w/ Jackrabbit II + Dynalite 18" beauty dish + Chimera quick-release speedring (entire package for $530, used). I had BatteriesPlus re-cell the Jackrabbit II for $50--works like new!</p>

<p>3. 1,000Ws: Speedotron Force 10 monolight (open-box for $200 under retail) + Speedotron 22" beauty dish + Chimera quick-release speedring + Photoflex 54" x 72" softbox + two Paul C. Buff Vagabond Mini Lithium AC inverter/batteries ($239 each, new--best bargain around for portable AC power).</p>

<p>The star item here, is the Paul C. Buff Vagabond Mini Lithium AC inverter/battery packs for only $239 each. Far less expensive than Profoto or Elinchrom alternatives. Very compact and lightweight--only about the size of a Quantum Turbo. Recycles in about two seconds at 400Ws, eight seconds at 1,000WS, if I remember correctly. Buy a couple of these, and pair them with any AC-powerable monolight, and you're good to go!</p>

[studio460]

<p>As always--great tips, Ian! I still haven't run my battery of tests on the new PocketWizard Nikon firmware updates yet. Still hoping for some slightly improved "HyperSync" results.</p>

<p>Another "rule-of-thumb" example: I was talking to a photographer a while back, shooting a model on a hotel balcony. He only had a 400Ws Profoto softbox, dialed-in at only half-power, about four feet from the model (it was overcast). He was shooting at f/8 so that he could still retain some definition in the skyline.</p>

[studio460]

<p>But wait, there's more . . .</p>

<p>In my first post here, I described my current location lighting tools, which were mainly chosen to fulfill a specific requirement: long-t.5 duration for optimizing high-speed sync applications (i.e., "HyperSync"). I adjust power on those units manually, and trigger them using the set of four PocketWizard TT1/TT5 RF triggers I've since purchased.</p>

<p>That requirement aside (the long-t.5 duration), an important consideration for me when deciding on any strobe system is the availability/compatibility of RF triggering systems. It's something you need to consider early on, since the RF triggers alone can become a sizable portion of your overall lighting investment. Had I to do it again, I would choose among the following monolights/RF triggering systems, based largely on price, and on triggering system compatibility and/or integration:</p>

<p>1. Elinchrom D-lite 4 IT, 400Ws monolight ($325) w/built-in Elinchrom Skyport ECO trigger (no remote power control).<br /> 2. Bowens Gemini 500R, 500Ws monolight ($590), plus optional PocketWizard BW-5185 (no remote power control).<br /> 3. Einstein E640, 640Ws monolight ($499), plus optional Paul C. Buff CyberSync Commander + CSXCV tranceivers (remote power control + RF triggering).</p>

<p>Whichever unit I decide to go with, I'll power it with a Paul C. Buff Vagabond Mini Lithium AC inverter/battery pack. Again, at only $239 each, they're a steal, compared to pricier solutions.</p>

<p>As far as triggering, with the Elinchroms, I would consider switching to their Skyport system since it's already built-in to the unit. For the Bowens, I would only have to add the PocketWizard radio trigger card ($122) made for that particular model, and keep my existing set of PocketWizard TT1/TT5 triggers I already own. The Bowens is unique, in that it's one of the very few brands of monolights for which PocketWizard makes a specific PCB-based receiver card which inserts into a special slot in the monolight. If I chose the Einstein product, I would likely go with the very capable, and very affordable CyberSync remote power control/trigger system.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Note: PocketWizard also supports "integrated" solutions in select models among the following vendors' products:</p>

<p>Profoto<br /> Bowens<br /> Norman<br /> Photogenic<br /> Dynalite (packs only)<br /> Sekonic (meters)</p>

[studio460]

<p>More on integrated PocketWizard triggers . . .</p>

<p>Well, for whatever reason, the Norman and Photogenic products seem priced way out of their market--they're far more expensive than competing brands of similar specs. Since both manufacturers likely have diminishing market shares, maybe the high prices are just an attempt to keep themselves afloat.</p>

<p>After some study at the B+H site, I found that Bowens offers several monolights which include the built-in slot to accept the PocketWizard trigger card (the $122 PocketWizard BW-5185). With just a PocketWizard TT1 on your camera's hot-shoe, and a pile of Bowens strobes, you could enjoy hassle-free, built-in triggering, and would no longer need buy an expensive TT5 for each unit, not to mention, not having to dangle a TT5 and sync cable from each strobe. No sync cord, and no extra battery to worry about!</p>

[studio460]

<p>Bowens monolights w/integrated PocketWizard support: (Watt-seconds are as indicated by model number)</p>

<p>Gemini 1500: $1,199<br /> Gemini 1000: $949<br /> Gemini 750 Pro: $860<br /> Gemini 500 Pro: $790<br /> Gemini 500R: $590<br /> Gemini 250R: $500<br /> Gemini Classic 500C: $499<br /> Gemini Classic 250C: $449</p>

<p>PocketWizard BW-5185 RF trigger card for above: $122</p>

<p>All prices USD, from B+H site on 02/12.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Okay, the super-weird thing about Bowens units . . . they're incredibly long! At 15" in length for just the 500R, and a whopping 20.5" in length for the Gemini 1500, these things are huge! Guess I'll take another look at the Elinchroms again . . .</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Ian, no need to get nasty. Our opinions may differ, and how we come to make images may take different paths ... which is fine as long as each works for us in their own way ... but getting dismissive and boorish in language is uncalled for ... especially over minute differences in semantics, and how people <em>commonly</em> understand certain terms ... yet still seem to make excellent photographs.</p>

<p> </p>

[ian_casement]

<p>Your <em>definition</em> might be 'minute differences in semantics' Marc... I simply disagree.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Couldn't possibly care less if you disagree Ian ... <br>

Just please keep it civil. </p>

 

[ian_casement]

<p>Heres a link to a sample of overpowering the sun using only a 320ws AB800 from around 18-20ft. (No softbox).<br>

<a href="http://tinyurl.com/9gd3al">http://tinyurl.com/9gd3al</a></p>

 

[rob_h5]

<blockquote>

<p>I contend that most people see "over-powering the sun" as just that ... shooting against the sun on a bright day, which is an extreme requiring more light on the subject than a speed-light or even some smaller battery packs can deliver.<br>

Profoto or Bron, or Elinchrom for example to see modifiers used on location ... soft-boxes, beauty dishes, deep octas ... each are creative options when shooting on location.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ian, you need to just go back and re-read what Marc wrote, he is trying to give you valuable lighting advice and you are just not getting it.</p>

<p>I agree with everything Marc said and this is from years of on location experience overpowering the sun using powerful strobe lights with battery. There are times when you will be shooting in midday, with large deep octo softboxes with diffusers/inner baffle/scrims, beauty dish, or any other light modifier that soaks up f-stops AND with the sun in view or super bright midday at 15 ft + or more with a telephoto lens...maybe even a large sensor or large format camera or slower flash sync camera... this all adds up and takes a lot of wattage, <strong>thats why you need 1200w/s and above portable battery</strong> <strong>packs, for those <em>specific situations</em></strong>. Hensel, Profoto, Elinchrom, Bowens, Broncolor, Speedotron all make superb 1200w/s portable battery pack and flash head systems. Maybe try one of thes portable battery strobe packs first to see what we are talking about? Speedlites are not enough in those specific situations. And your examples of under 10 ft or at f10 @ 250/s are the bare bones minimum for the specific situations I mentioned. And just placing a deep throw reflector on your strobe isnt the artistic solution to everything. Sorry, but I am with Marc on this one and most other professional photographers would agree with him as well.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>Well, surprisingly I'm a professional photographer with over 30 years experience and I don't agree, and I won't agree because 'Overpowering the sun' is different to balancing the light. Not only does output power of the flash come into play, (with not only high output flash being capable of this) but so too the proximity of the source. Anybody who contends this is deluded.</p>

<p>As far as I'm aware - including an electronic shuttered camera or a camera with higher sync speed or..</p>

<blockquote>

<p>even a large sensor or large format camera or slower flash sync camera...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>..slow flash sync camera (?) have not even entered the equation. Neither has having to place the modified versions you list 15ft+ or more.. the OP wants his softbox on a pole, there is no reason to have it 15+ feet away.</p>

<p>Even of his own sample image Marc wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>... I just wanted a clean studio type shot, so I stopped the camera down, jacked the Quadra up to 320w/s<em> and used an on-camera TTL speed-light</em> for fill, <strong><em>effectively overpowering anything</em></strong> in the background.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>..overpowering everything in the background is pretty much what we're talking about - whether thats indoors or outdoors.</p>

<p> </p>