gaute_solheim1 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 <p>Go for the d40. I did not treat it nice when it was my main camera and it survived. My eleven year old has used it several times bringing it to school and back in one piece, and my 15 year has more or less used it as her own for two years now. They learn so quick at that age, and children do really appreciate the difference between toys and the real thing. I will never forget one time I picked up the prints at the lab back when I used a Hexar AF. There was this really amazing picture of my father in law. I could not remember taking it, and after a while I understood that only a grandchild could make that smile shine like it did. My daughter was five or six when she took it, and it still by far is the best picture I have of him.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebastianmoran Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 <p>Instead of "robust" try "cheap." That would be a used out-of-date low value dSLR with a cheap kit lens. D70 with 17-55mm kit lens.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two23 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 <p>I think you should buy him a new D4. It will impress the hell out of your buddies.</p> <p>Kent in SD</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack_zoll Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 <p>I tried to comment on this earlier today, but I guess it wasn't meant to be :)<br /><br />Don't worry about things like image quality. You may care, but he doesn't. He doesn't even want to take pictures, really. I mean he says he does, but no six-year-old in the world possesses the self-awareness to actually <em>have</em> an artistic vision, let alone express it.</p> <p>What he wants is do be involved in what you are doing. He wants to be just like his daddy. If you were a carpenter, he would want a hammer. If you ask him about taking pictures, he's just going to repeat back things he's heard you say. He'll probably even point the camera in the same direction as you most of the time. And that's okay; it doesn't mean that he doesn't understand, or that he doesn't really want to take photos. What it does mean is that he wants to be part of your hobby.</p> <p>I think the Fuji S3 was the best recommendation so far. Other than the D100 - which is probably going to be a little iffy by now - it's the cheapest 'big camera' I can think of. He wants a camera like yours, so there's no sense in buying him a D40. He'll think it's a kids' camera, and he wants a grownup camera so he can be a grownup. If you use big lenses, I'd buy him a 135mm f/3.5 too. They're cheap as heck, and the manual focus is a non-issue: he's six. The photos are going to be almost all terrible anyway. The important thing is that he'll have a camera and a lens that, in his eyes, is exactly like Dad's.</p> <p>I got my first SLR when I was 6. It was a Nikon FG-20 that my dad bought me because it looked just like his Nikon. My parents said my photos were 'really good', but I'm positive that's BS. I'm equally positive that the camera had film in it just as often as it didn't. But the important thing is that we got a lot of father/son bonding time, and 22 years later I still have the camera, and it's the most valuable thing I own. I even still use it sometimes.</p> <p>So buy him the chunky camera, and let him have fun. If it were me, I'd give him your lowest-capacity, lowest-speed card, so he has to take photos more slowly and be mindful of how many he has left.</p> <p>I wish you both lots of fun, and I hope that the phrase, "Uh oh, Mom is calling us to come inside for dinner," gets said every night.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 <p>D40 w/kit lens sounds good. Light weight with 18-55 kit lens, won't cost an arm and leg, and is relatively small.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>D40 or D70 with a kit lens...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <blockquote> <p>Don't worry about things like image quality. You may care, but he doesn't. He doesn't even want to take pictures, really. I mean he says he does, but no six-year-old in the world possesses the self-awareness to actually <em>have</em> an artistic vision, let alone express it.</p> </blockquote> <p>Hold it, not so fast. You know this, for sure? There are about seven billion people in the world. The sheer numbers are against you.</p> <p>There was a six year-old French girl who saw a cello one day, and said, "Mommy, I want one of those." Her mom bought her one. Her name was Jacqueline DuPre. In case you didn't know, she later studied under Pablo Casals and became one of the world's top cellists.</p> <p>No artistic vision?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>Rob, the nuances of tonal gradations etc. is something one learns as one matures and develops whether from a musical instrument or an image produced by a camera. It is not something innate however gifted a prodigy might be. </p> <p>A six year-old cellist will be learning on a small sized instrument, not necessarily the best instrument money can buy because they might be able to tell the difference or even care. Of course there are differences between cellos, but at the level of the caliber of cameras in this discussion, it would make little difference to a six year-old. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <blockquote> <p>Don't worry about things like image quality. You may care, but he doesn't. He doesn't even want to take pictures, really. I mean he says he does, but no six-year-old in the world possesses the self-awareness to actually <em>have</em> an artistic vision, let alone express it.</p> </blockquote> <p>Maybe not catering an artistic expression, but i would really like that I had a better camera when shooting on a train ride when I was about 12-14 years old and travelling on my own to my grandparents. Maybe now, some 35 years later, I could have gotten more out of the old negatives if the camera was not a cheap instamatic one...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack_zoll Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <blockquote> <p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=440542">Per-Christian Nilssen</a><a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Feb 01, 2012; 06:32 a.m.</p> <em>Don't worry about things like image quality. You may care, but he doesn't. He doesn't even want to take pictures, really. I mean he says he does, but no six-year-old in the world possesses the self-awareness to actually have an artistic vision, let alone express it. </em> <p>Maybe not catering an artistic expression, but i would really like that I had a better camera when shooting on a train ride when I was about 12-14 years old and travelling on my own to my grandparents. Maybe now, some 35 years later, I could have gotten more out of the old negatives if the camera was not a cheap instamatic one...</p> </blockquote> <p>First off, you were twice the age of Wee-Ming's son. And a VERY large amount of brain development happens between the ages of 6 and 12 ... arguably, most of it. Second, you're taking about how, as an adult, you wish the photos are better. That means that you care at 41 - not at 6.<br /><br />Granted, there are exceptions. And I'm not professing to be an expert; I hold a NYS degree and teaching certificate to teach art K-12 (that's 5 years old to 18), but that only means I took classes in child delevopment - not that I hold a doctorate in it or anything. That said, I can tell you both from learning and from experience that even if your child is a prodigy, there's certain things that they just can't do because they're not old enough to have developed the spatial reasoning or the self-awareness. For instance, a six-year-old cannot draw a three-quarter portrait. Even if you show them one and ask them to copy it, you will get a head-on picture with a line running down it. The reason they can't do it is because it requires knowledge of perspective and a part of the face that they cannot see, and the brain hasn't developed that yet.</p> <p>Similarly, young children don't have an artistic vision. They know what they want right now. DuPre knew that she wanted to play the cello, and Wee-Ming's son knows he wants to take photos. But they don't know it for <em>artistic </em>reasons. DuPre liked the instrument and the sound it made; at six, the concept of spending countless hours practicing, attending school, and joining a philharmonic doesn't even occur to them. 99% of six-year-olds can't even remember to feed the dog.</p> <p>Yes, Wee-Ming's son might be a rare exception. But I don't know him, and even if I did I couldn't gauge. But I do know that if you put five thousand six-year-olds in that same situation, 4,999 of them will want to take photos for the sheer act of taking photos, or because that's what Dad does, or both. Maybe a single one of those five thousand children will be able to look at a camera that is smaller than Dad's, and recognize the superior quality of that camera as opposed to another one that looks like Dad's. Maybe.</p> <p>That's why I say you want to give him a camera that looks and feels like Dad's. He's infinitely more likely to keep taking photos for the rest of his life if he starts by thinking he's doing the same thing than if you hand him something that doesn't look at all like the camera he wants, but which you tell him is better. He's probably going to look at you and say, "Then why aren't YOU using the smaller one?" And then you have to go buy <em>another </em>D40.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam_adams2 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>I recently went through the same mental exercise for my 8-year old daughter - and getting some responses elsewhere along the lines of "what a waste" such an endeavor must be. Shows how little trust we have in the abilities of our children these days.<br> Granted, some children may not have the interest, attention span or care at such a young age. Others do. But that leaves the problem that there were really very few options given the prerequisites I had in mind. To me part of the experience has to be to understand how to control the outcome of photos and cover the basics of shutter speed, aperture, composition.<br> Most point and shoot cameras don't allow for that. And even cheap digital SLRs have their limits. Given the limited budget for the first round of this I opted for a Canon SX130 since there was not much interest in learning on a decent 35mm film camera first - which would have been my first choice.<br> The SX130IS doesn't have a viewfinder but surprisingly good manual control. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_boston1 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>Nikon D1 with a 50mm f/1.8D and a filter. Indestructible and battle tested. I used to have a part time job in an after-school program and I regularly let a group second graders run around with this rig.</p> <p>The 50mm D is an excellent choice because of its size and cost.</p> <p>A D70/D70s with the same lens is a decent choice too. It has the advantage of separate aperture and shutter speed controls and still has the AF motor that lets you use the D lens.</p> <p>Finally, if he is astute enough to complain about the size of the viewfinder, he deserves to use the full frame camera. Just put the 50 1.8D on the D700 and you don't have to worry too much about damage. Just make sure the insurance policy is up to date. :-)</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_osullivan1 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>WM,<br> I had a similar experience with all of my three daughters (all very petite). From a very young age (5 or 6 years) they were all interested in cameras and things we photographed including flowers, animals, portraits, weddings, theater, dance and all the things they were invloved in. I always let them see through the viewfinder when I composed photos and asked them to help shoot events like theater and weddings, select final images for display and use Photoshop as we entered the digital age. I had them help set up the tripod for macro shots and let them use a camera rig (camera, lens bracket and flash) at wedding receptions. They are all teenagers now and all of them are competent photographers in their own right. I do not think any of them would have kept the interest in photography, nor developed their current artistic skills if I had not let them participate in photography when they were first interested.<br> My advice is to get a camera kit cheaply (D70, D40, D60, D80 kits are all available with lens quite cheaply now) and give him as much freedom to learn while he is interested. Even if he breaks something, a camera kit is a pretty small investment in developing the creativity of your son.<br> Best regards,<br> Jim</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mihai_ciuca Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>Zack, is not about exceptions here. Many children have a great potential and talents and only the limited mind of the adults around them is the real obstacle for a proper development.<br /> Before to go in the first grade my son's English language (we are from Romania) was much better than mine. Classes? No. Private teachers? No. He got his English watching Cartoon Network TV Channel at his very early age. From that time he is merely correcting my English... When he was in the school his math teacher was mad that my son was mentally solving the exercises giving him in advance the correct result without to write anything on his notebook... At this time my son is studying Computer Science in UK and nobody there believed that he is a non-native English speaking guy.<br /> Is him an exception? No way! I've seen around illiterate gipsies whose kids are playing violin in a magnificent way at age 6 or 7 without to know to read or to understand any musical symbol. <br /> I know that if a child likes some thing very much there is no real obstacle for him to become very good in that area even at an age when nobody expects to happen.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <blockquote> <p>Zack: That's why I say you want to give him a camera that looks and feels like Dad's. He's infinitely more likely to keep taking photos for the rest of his life if he starts by thinking he's doing the same thing than if you hand him something that doesn't look at all like the camera he wants, but which you tell him is better.</p> </blockquote> <p>That's exactly what I mean too, Zack. I am sure my father meant well when he handed me that old Instamatic, but what I really wanted, was to take pictures with an equipment that looked like his SLRs. And I got my photo interest at age 2 (yes that is me in the pic below... ;)<br> I do not think that I could have created masterpieces of art at the age of 6, nor at 11, but I know that I wanted to copy my father at an early age - and if my equipment had been better, I could have gotten more out of the images today, given today's digital possibilities. But at 11, I was satisfied with the photos as they were...</p> <div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>I got my own daughter a small P&S some years ago, as I wanted to give her the opportunity to record memories from younger age, which I miss I did... However, her interest was not so much picturetaking, it turned out she wanted to snap a few shots with my D300, but nothing more than that. Today, she snaps away with her iPhone. What is the bottom line here? Give them (within certain limits) what tool they want, and not what you think they should use, as the youngsters are prone to not using what they do not want. (This also applies to wives - LOL!)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack_zoll Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>Mr. Nilssen, that is a VERY cute photo of you! I'm always happy to see children get interested in art and photography - that's exactly why I teach it.</p> <p>That said, I can see from some of the other comments since mine that maybe I didn't word myself correctly, so I'll try again. Most 6-year-olds aren't interested in colouring inside the lines when they draw. The line is a very clear demarcation of quality; either you stay inside and do it 'correctly', or you go outside the lines and do it wrong. Photography is not the same. Unless a photo is so dark or light that you cannot see it, it's not obviously bad. Even out-of-focus pictures can be good, such as Cartier-Bresson's photo of the man jumping a puddle. If many children don't understand 'poor quality art' when they have a clear indicator of it (going outside the line), how will they ever understand it when there's no way that you can show them what is always good or bad?</p> <p>When referring to art, quality is an <em>abstract concept</em>. Unless you are standing over his shoulder telling him otherwise, he will always think his photo is good. How many of you parents have been given a drawing of what appears to be a dog, only to be told it's a cat, a giraffe, or some other animal? And what is the proper response EVERY TIME? "Of course it is ... it's beautiful." And you put it up on the fridge immediately. If you don't, then shame on you. At that age, children cannot self-assess, and they cannot grasp abstact concepts of beauty. To them, everything they do is good, and a parent should support that.</p> <p>This is NOT a matter of my having low expectations for children. Trust me - that couldn't be farther from the truth. This is learned from countless loooooong class periods spent not understanding why kids couldn't grasp what was, to me, a simple concept. I'm not saying we shouldn't push our kids to be the best they can be. I'm saying that we shouldn't <em>expect </em>it, and it's unfair to expect them to push themselves that way.</p> <p>Learning a language is a totally different matter. Language is not an abstract idea. Children are constantly reinforced for good or bad pronunciation, even if it's just from hearing the words again and again on television. Children that age learn by repetition. Most children learn to "read" by memorizing their favourite book, and by gradually finding the same words in other places. They learn by applying what they already know, and by filling in missing words with the pictures. They don't learn to read by learning words and plugging them into sentences until much older - that is an abstract idea.</p> <p>That's also why Rosetta Stone works so well. Rosetta Stone works not by teaching words and giving sentences and relying on abstract reasoning to let you plug it all in, but by showing you pictures of several red items and saying "Red."</p> <p>When kids get older (and developmentally, it only takes a couple years - this starts around 8-10), then they can self-assess. That's when he'll start to ask why his photos don't look like Daddy's. But until that time, you should tell him that everything he shoots is good, because that's how he's going to see it.</p> <p>Eventually he'll get older and realize that his poo really does stink. But there's no sense in telling him that now. For now, the absolute best thing you can do (or anyone else with children that age can do) is tell them that it's great, and that you love it. There's plenty of time for him to worry about critical focus, how accurately he can draw a giraffe, how fluidly she plays a cello solo, and all those other abstract concepts when they're older.</p> <p>And that's all I have to say on the matter :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_wood Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 <p>Best be careful. When my children were young I worked in the high end audio manufacturing industry. My kids had separates (amps, preamps, turntables, speakers) in their rooms. Then I bought my first BMW. Now they drive BMWs, have expensive audio/video systems, huge astronomy scopes, etc. It can lead to excessive consumerism. :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WM Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 <p>Hello everyone, <br> Wow ! I did not know that such a question would elicit such passionate and exciting responses! All I can say is that I have learnt a lot from reading your posts, and I am very thankful not only for your recommendations, but also all your words of wisdom, in terms of inspiring kids, child raising, hobbies, and most important of all, the special quality time that we are privileged to have with our little peoples. <br> I am inspired now, more than ever to get my little boy a dSLR, that looks like daddy's albeit a smaller one of course......haha. The D700 is just too big for his little hands, and is just too expensive for me as well, if he breaks it. <br> It seems like the D40 with a fast normal lens is a good way to go, so I'll probably go for that. If he breaks it, then who cares, as long as he has fun, and we spend quality time. If he does not break it and come up with some great shots then it would have all been worth it. In fact, he already uses my iPhone to shoot as well, and he does get some great shots. <br> As for his street shooting skills, he blows me away easily, as he is uninhibited, knows no fear, knows no shame, and no one really cares about a little boy with an SLR.......in fact many thinks it is very cute, and is not suspicious of him........so his shots are great. <br> I want to thank everyone for your time, and experience in so freely giving advice, and I am grateful. <br> Happy shooting, and when I get shots from my little boy, I will post them here. <br> Cheers, Wee-Ming</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_symington1 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 <p>Funny this came up - my daughter today asked for a camera for her 5th birthday in 3 weeks time.<br> An SLR is out of the question for her and having seen what happened to an old P&S of my wife's whose retractable lens mechanism got messed up by one or other of our daughters (the little one is 3) I think this camera should have no moving parts. So a P&S with a fixed focal length and whose lens does not need to extend/retract seems the safe option. I have one that roughly fits the bill, my Fuji X100, but that's clearly not going to be the solution!<br> Ideas most welcome.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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