price too high for client

[john_deerfield]

<p>Shooting weddings is an entirely different beast than shooting commercially (stock, fashion, beauty, product, etc). There are times we give away prints and web images, with our logo <em>on the image</em>, to different vendors, including restaurants. But maybe that's just us. If I had a restaurant that wanted to use my image, I would want to know in what context they would want to use the image. For me, without that knowledge, I can't begin to ascertain what I would do. If they want to hang a print on their wall, I will sell them a canvas wrap <em>with my contact info across the bottom</em> at cost. If they want to use it in print advertising (a new menu, an ad in a local magazine, etc), that changes things. If they want to use it on the web, my first question is how? But in general, I will give then a web image (with my logo!) provided I am credited and preferably a link to my website.</p>

[tiffany_robbins]

<p >my question wasn't asking for people to put a value on my work. as you can see from the comments there are a vast number of opinions from people with varying talents and backgrounds. I'm willing to take the comments for what they're worth and form my own opinion about how I should conduct my business. this whole forum has given me a lot to think about and I thank you all for that. some very insightful comments and answers here, even going beyond what my original question was. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >truthfully, pricing my work always leaves me with questions and frustrations. and whenever i search for answers there is never any clear solution. it's frustrating but i guess it's all part of the business. i see both sides of the story that people are communicating here. one photographer i talked to put it well saying that my situation was what he called a "lose lose situation". any way i priced it to begin with the "prospective client" would feel like he's paying too much and i'd feel like i was charging too little. i had no idea when i sent my estimate to the restaurant owner that he had never paid a photographer more then $35 for an image before. maybe he had never paid for an image in the past, or maybe he had paid $300 per image. it was a guessing game to figure out a price that he might go for. my frustrations lay in not ever having anything concrete to base my rates on. and from what some people have said here it seems as though i have to also take into account the costs and profits of my prospective clients. even more to think about….</p>

<p > </p>

<p >again thank you all for the time you took to respond to this. </p>

<p >greatly appreciated!</p>

<p > </p>

<p > - tiff </p>

 

[zensphoto]

<p>I read what you said. If after you balanced it out for $140.00 per photograph, with a one year use license (Probably with $140.00 I would have let them have an unlimited use license - Only Change I would make to the whole thing.) By the customer telling the $35.00 dollar price was the customer telling you that is all they are interested in spending per photograph. Long ago that might have been what they paid for before. I would stay at $140.00. The best reply to them is no reply. They have gracefully declined your offer and that is basically the end of the transaction.</p>

<p>A High School I used to attend back in my HS days did the same thing to me for my $100.00 per photograph with an never ending use license and they turned me down said thanks and I said thanks and sold my work that I took to other places for $150.00 per photograph. The school who wasn't paying me to talk the photographs, I took them for a news story asked how much each photograph would be for 6 they really liked after I sent them 80 to look at. I told them 6 x$100.00 with unlimited use license is $600.00. They declined and I never spoke to them again about it. I did write the story about the event and published making my money on it. Sorry I already gave them a $50.00 discount which I told them about, they weren't interested in spending that levy money after all LOL.</p>

<p>None the less, you made your offer, leave it at that. You will be respected later for standing your ground on the prices. The restaurant may tell someone about it some time and the other person like a friend will say, wow that was cheap per photograph the $140.00 and they may come back to you for the photographs and buy them. If you are desperate for the sale, and you drop the price a little lower they will end up getting them for free from you over the negotiation of the pricing. Don't let your Customers see a weak person. You don't want to get a reputation in your area for not standing up on your prices. The customer doesn't care about how much your equipment costs or why your prices are so high (really they are very fair) and the customer wants them for less. If you drop down to $35.00 the next price will be $10.00 and do you really want this customer telling other businesses you reneged on your pricing? Think about it for the future for yourself and being firm with your prices and your business.</p>

[lauren_macintosh]

<p>But you need to look at it this way the manager knows you just did the wedding so your cost is all ready done for the wedding and for Him to get photos from that wedding should not be that high in his mind : Since you already shot those photos : what would you charge for the bride for extra photo's above what she contracted for : Think about what I am saying here:<br>

what you might lose in money could turn out to be a reference or two from them ?</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>The restaurant may tell someone about it some time and the other person like a friend will say, wow that was cheap per photograph the $140.00</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not very likely.</p>

[adlai_duran1]

<p>Don't think of it as selling a print, think of it as <strong><em>marketing</em> <em>your services</em></strong>. I would ask the restaurant owner which image he liked, make a big Mpix print of it, slap it into an Ikea frame and stick a few business cards into his pocket. No digital files, no CD/DVD. I would think having a large piece in a restaurant that wedding couples use (whether it be in the main room or in the owner's office) would be the best marketing you could hope for and by giving him only a print, licensing fees (which he was never even going to consider anyway), are off the table.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>What data do you have that shows that this happens?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I guess there was no data. Another post without any backup.</p>

[dyun_baline]

<blockquote>

<p>So what? Its irrelevant. Day after day you pay for products and services and have no idea how much the associated equipment costs or what all sorts of other costs or losses are involved. Virtually never do you base a purchase decision on it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's not true. Almost every day people pay more for better quality products, because they know these products are either rare, of high quality, difficult/time-consuming to produce, or demand is high and supply is low. While they may not be aware of the exact cost of production, they know the production cost is (more often than not) higher than that of lower end products, and they are willing to pay a little extra for better quality or high demand items.<br>

If the client is not aware of the costs, maybe he/she should be made aware in one way or the other. I wouldn't expect to pay $30,000 for a Ferrari Enzo,... but I guess there are still some clueless people who would. Just because someone thinks it's worth $30,000 to them doesn't mean Ferrari will sell them an Enzo for $30,000, nor does it mean Ferrari should sell an Enzo for $30,000. The clients who can't or refuse to see the value in a quality product can keep moving along. There always comes a time when one must negotiate (out of charity or desperation), but we shouldn't have to sell ourselves short just because some clueless client doesn't think our prices are reasonable. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Its not a very good analogy. There's not much fun or vanity in performing the work of most jobs. You chose an activity that people derive pleasure from as your profession. Therefore, you see people doing it merely for pleasure unlike your examples.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This isn't true either. Are you trying to tell me that there are no people out there who enjoy working on cars (as I used in my example)? I know people who are not professional mechanics, but do fix or work on cars on the side for fun as well as extra income. That's why they do what they do, because they enjoy it. If they benefit from it on the side, they'll charge their friends or neighbors a few bucks. Mechanics don't become mechanics because they hate cars. They do it because they love to tinker, which eventually leads them to becoming mechanics. That stands for doctors, engineers and countless other professions. Most people strive to do what they love, though not everyone succeeds. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Lectures moralizing about what people ought to do will accomplish nothing. Adapting to the market and providing something of real or perceived value worthy of payment will.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Making a client aware of what it takes to produce a quality product is not lecturing. It's making them aware of why they are expected to pay more.<br>

Just because I do something I enjoy does not make it worth any less than the work of people who do a job they don't particularly enjoy. If I do something better than others and that work is noticed by someone who is seeking to purchase said work BECAUSE they like the quality, is that not providing "something of real or perceived value worthy of payment"? If the clients can't appreciate the effort, talent and years of experience that goes into something like photography, they're not the clients I'd be looking for.</p>

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

[dyun_baline]

<blockquote>

<p>I don't buy this at all. I am not responsible for what other photographers make. Nobody else is either. I am responsible for me. I sell for what I can get that makes sense to me, I don't care what other photographers are selling for. If I was only able to get low prices, why would I starve to keep other photographers in business?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>You're right. You can charge whatever you want for your products. Nobody can tell you what you can and can't charge. You can do it for free if that's what you want to do. </p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>You can do it for free if that's what you want to do.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /><br />Free is one of my favourite prices... especially if I'm buying!</p>

[venda_veverkova]

<p>to this theme, heard about dollarphotostock.com, where amateur photographers can sell their photos for low price, i think it is better to sell them for lower price and to sell more of them</p>

[edo_t]

<blockquote>

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=6884685">venda veverkova</a></p>

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote>

<p>to this theme, heard about dollarphotostock.com, where amateur photographers can sell their photos for low price, i think it is better to sell them for lower price and to sell more of them</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What? The only good advice is to say "Ok, that's fine." and move on. There is no benefit for selling your photos cheaply. It makes you little money and greatly degrades your own brand value and worth. Never settle for less. If you find yourself looking for change here and there, what does it say about you, your worth, your business, your confidence, and your professionalism?</p>

 

[photom]

<p>Listen to what Simon said OR,<br>

if you are still trying to get your name around the market, counteroffer.<br>

For example, offer 10 photos for 6 mos. at $350 total upfront. Each photo will have your website name prominently displayed as well as a purchase price, if you so choose. Also, the owner will agree not to share with anyone the details of your arrangement. Just an idea.<br>

= tommy</p>

[garry_mansfield]

<p>For what it will cost you, <strong>DO It FOR FREE as THIS IS FREE ADVERTISING FOR YOU</strong>. The pictures and frames remain your property and the way it reads here, the resurant wants more so you get more <strong>FREE. Have you even got a remote idea as to what advertising Costs or what some bank or resturant will charge you to display your pictures. </strong> I have paid $2000.oo fto high end resturants and more to banks here in the GTA area of Ontario.<br>

Garry</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p><strong> </strong> I have paid $2000.oo fto high end resturants and more to banks</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's seems crazy! What annual turnover did you achieve from such 'adverts'? Most such advertising is snake oil, generally not worth more than a few dollars unless you have a very targeted product and clients that will see the advert you're very sure you can place it with. Clearly not in the OP's case, so the 'advertising' would likely be worthless unless there was a very specific set of circumstances making it worth something.</p>

 

[garry_mansfield]

<p>Simon,</p>

<p>The studio I own is capable of photographing two tractor trailers with 48 foot trailers,<br>

A make up studio and portrait studio capable of handling 40 people plus a food display studio and a product display section. Clients included lawyers and business COE's and large manufactures. Four of the staff is renting to own as there is very good income from the business which has eight full time staff plus another two that are Adobe certified.<br>

<em>" so the 'advertising' would likely be worthless unless there was a very specific set of circumstances making it worth something"</em> If you want exposure of your work for free, Don't charge for the pictures as there are quite likely many others that will jump at the opportunity<br>

Garry</p>

[garry_mansfield]

<p>From a November 17th message "<em>There's a problem with your topic heading... this guy isn't a "client", he's just a small business owner who wanted to buy rights to some images you took at an event at his restaurant"</em> What will you do if the resturant prohibits you from dispaying ANY picture that his resurant is identifiable in if YOU do not have a legal signed release from the owner or renter of the resturant as YOU will be finded a heck of a lot more than if you had given him/her the pictures and files that he/she wanted.<br>

<strong>RELEASES</strong>--without them,you very often loose in a court of law--with a signed release.you seldome loose a case in a court of law.<br>

As they say,Greed kills. Just another way of looking at things.<br>

Garry</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>What will you do if the resturant prohibits you from dispaying ANY picture that his resurant is identifiable in if YOU do not have a legal signed release from the owner or renter of the resturant as YOU will be</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The restaurateur has no right to stop you displaying pictures of his restaurant, so this is a specious argument. He can only object (and even then, it's far from clear that he can) in very limited circumstances, such as if you're doing a commercial advertising campaign with the picture that damages his reputation. That doesn't seem very likely here at all.</p>

<p>Garry, if you have a photography business, then you should know by now that advertising is largely useless unless it is targeted. The world is full of magazines and clients offering free exposure (in the form of a picture credit) in return for using your picture for free. In 99% of cases, it is worthless. Just occasionally it can be very valuable, and that is when it is highly targetted - for example, an album at a venue where wedding clients come to browse.</p>

<p>Just giving away pictures for free to clients on the off-chance that another client might come along and notice the picture credit is a waste of time. If a tractor manufacturer comes to your studio and asks you to do a campaign for free in return for a picture credit, would you go for it? After all, by your logic, compared to a restaurant, having your picture credit on a national advertising campaign must be worth several million dollars to you - right? I'm sure you wouldn't charge a few measly tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege of doing their campaign.<br /> <br />As I said, advertising is only worth something if highly structured and targetted.</p>

[garry_mansfield]

<p>Simon,</p>

<p><em>"The restaurateur has no right to stop you displaying pictures of his restaurant, so this is a specious argument."</em><br>

<strong>A person pays to operate the resturant and occupy the space the restaurant is located at. </strong>The WALLS are part of what they pay for so the person(s) the the restaurant controls what goes on the space they pay for. “(and even then, it's far from clear that he can) in very limited circumstances, such as if you're doing a commercial advertising campaign with the picture that damages his reputation. That doesn't seem very likely here at all.) Tell that to a Judge or read the © laws pertaining to this and you will see that I was correct.<br>

ALL insurance and large commercial advertising photography is sold with the rights to the pictures without restrictions but our lawyers do have to approve our release of all rights with no exceptions.<br>

Yes the pictures are targeted to certain places like portraits, sports and weddings to certain bars and restaurants. Banks get Arial shots of a development sight, construction sights etcetera. Weddings and graduations and some small group shots, we will rent a car(s) that is a high end luxury or sports car--the clients are happy as well as us.<br>

Garry</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>but our lawyers do have to approve our release of all rights with no exceptions</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Garry you can read about the limited circumstances when <em>there is an argument</em> you need property releases in an summary on the ASMP website <a href="http://asmp.org/tutorials/using-property-releases.html">here</a>.</p>

<p>For large commercial advertising photography, the client would want a property release for sure, whether or not it's actually needed. That is in fact one of the limited cases where you would need a property release. But there hasn't been any suggestion that the OP plans to do a large commercial advertising campaign using the pictures of the restaurant...</p>

 

[steve m smith]

<p>A release is similar to a contract and it is not specifically required by law. It is only of any value if something goes wrong and it is used to clarify what was agreed. When there are no problems, it is not consulted.</p>

[garry_mansfield]

<p>Steve,<br>

<strong>A SIGNED RELEASE </strong>DREW UP BY OUR LAYERS? It is called <strong>COVERING YOUR BUTT</strong> in my opinion</p>

[david_rosenthal1]

<p>Whoa there! We're talking about a Wedding Hall, that's all! You commercial guys are way over your heads here! In my locale, we give them the files to use with our name in the images, and they recommend us to future brides. What Tiff should do is to get some free meals out of the joint (if they have a regular restaurant--some catering halls are just caterers!) and an arrangement to put the owner's favorite image in a nice frame in the office where he sees prospective clients and makes his deals. </p>

<p>And while she's at it--if her work is any good, a copy of the bridal album featuring his place to give to the owner is a good idea too!</p>

<p>Now IF this joint is a low-end hall whose demographic doesn't fit Tiff's usual client, take the $35.00 per image and RUN!</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>Whoa there! We're talking about a Wedding Hall, that's all!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't know where you get that information from, but the OP so far was talking about a restaurant that happened to have had a wedding reception there, and didn't say anything about it being a Wedding Hall. Unfortunately we can only answer the thread on the basis of the facts given to us.</p>