Thoughts on some Laptops

[k.andy_photos]

<p>Like most, I am in the market for a new laptop. I understand needing more RAM to run my programs. I have too much money that I have invested into PC programs to want to switch over to MAC so for now this is not an option. I am curious however, I have been researching several different brands and have come across some that I have not really heard of. Most photographers I know choose to either run Dell or Sony due to the price. I am not looking to spend more than $600.00 if I can avoid it. So tell me what you know of these "undermarketed" brands. I have heard Asus overheats, as for fujitsu, Lenovo and pc's such as SYX, I am left dumbfounded. Any insight you can give me into the following links would be most helpful. Another question, would it make more sense to get something smaller (i.e. smaller screen) and hookup to my asus monitor? It's 26" which I would think that would be sufficient. But when I am traveling it would be nice to have something that runs faster with a decent screen. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1429113&CatId=4935">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1429113&CatId=4935#</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7120338&CatId=4938">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7120338&CatId=4938</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1165451&CatId=4938">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1165451&CatId=4938</a></p>

<p>Thank you for your time.</p>

[peter_cohen]

<p>You'll get a lot of opinions on this. Here's mine (I build my own desktop PCs, so I have more than a casual knowledge of technology).</p>

<p>ASUS is one of the world's largest component manufacturers. I have used their motherboards for years and they have been flawless. The overheating rumor you cite should be substantiated, and you'd need to know the conditions under which it supposedly overheats. Lenovo is the former IBM brand of PCs. Generally reputed to retain the rock-solid reputation it enjoyed when sold under the IBM label. I don't know SYX.<br>

My top priority would be RAM -- get as much as you can afford. If you're using Photoshop, it will use as much RAM as you can give it. The other item that would speed up application loading is a laptop that uses an SSD rather than a conventional hard disk. You'll be amazed at the difference.</p>

<p>I would also check out sites such as http://www.tomshardware.com/, http://www.anandtech.com/, and http://arstechnica.com/ for reviews of laptops as well as reading user comments on Newegg.com if you find a machine that piques your interest.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

[parv]

Kali, how much of computer hardware weight and how small a screen can you endure while traveling?

 

Lenovo has introduced other inexpensive lines along side the Thinkpad that it got from IBM. The only new 'puter within US$ 600 is Thinkpad X120e (10.1 in screen). Else, used T60 & T400 series of 'puters are available from a IBM website somewhere for around $ 250-590.

 

Following impression is based reading on c. 2009. Solid state disk may be great for fast startup, but it would have far shorter life than a olde hard disk if much writing is done. Only the expensive ones (from Intel for example; single level cell) will mitigate to meaningful extent. Else, use (cheaper) SSD for OS, program installation and add a hard disk or another SSD for heavy writing. Please do correct|update me.

 

(I myself looking to add a Mac laptop (x86 CPU) for the hardware with intent of dual boot & mainly spending like with FreeBSD. The estimated cost came around $ 1000 + cost of extended warranty. Lenovo seems to be diverging from that is a Thinkpad.)

[parv]

Correction: Screen size of Lenovo X120e is ~11 in, not 10.1 in.

[scottelly]

<p>I suggest you stay away from all of the computers you have linked there. Stay away from Samsung. They make fine monitors, but from my research, their cameras and computers are not very good. There is an HP on sale at my local Office Depot. It has a quad-core processor (the i3 is not quad-core, and most of the i5 notebook computers out there are not either). It has 6 GB of RAM and a 15" screen. It looks like a good machine for $399. If you buy it from Office Depot, you should be able to take it right back too. They have a good extended warranty too, called something like the Personal Protection Plan. If your computer just happens to "fall off a counter" after 22 months, you will get a new machine. That's always nice, because if the machine is a close-out right now, you are likely to get an i7 quad-core as a replacement. You should get a machine with a quad-core processor. That is important. You can always upgrade your own RAM, so if it has 4 gigs that is fine. RAM is cheap.<br>

-<br>

You might want something with USB 3 port(s), so you can use a faster hard drive in the future. Today's USB 3 hard drives aren't much faster than USB 2 hard drives, but they will get faster and faster, and in a year or two, you will find they are twice as fast as USB 2.</p>

[danny_low]

<p>All laptops are made in a handful of factories in China from the same set of components. Some are original designs but many are made on the same assembly line with only a different label put on it and different shovelware stuffed in it at the end of the line. Which means there is really little difference between any laptops that you may be considering.</p>

<p>Apple is the only standout in reliability and service. Among the Wintel machines, Lenovo, and HP generally have the best service. Basically no matter where you are, Lenovo and HP are going have a local service shop and a regional support center.</p>

<p>Basically if you are going to be traveling a lot with your laptop, the best criterion for choosing a brand is their after market service rather than the technical specs of their laptops. While a company such as ASUS designs and make their own laptops, they also OEM those same laptops to other companies such as HP and Dell. Years ago when I helped develop PCs for HP, we had ASUS do some custom designs for us but we also bought some off the shelf designs they had, in addition to actual HP designed and made PCs. So unless you have inside information, you really do not know who made that laptop. However all the best PC companies have their own service organizations. There are magazines such as PCworld and Consumer Reports which survey people on the reliability and quality of those service organizations.</p>

<p>So just come up with the specs you want and buy the cheapest laptop that meets those specs whose service organization gets good rating.</p>

<p>Danny Low</p>

 

[kerry_grim]

You get what you pay for and for $600 I doubt you can get a decent laptop. I paid over $1000 two years ago

for a Dell and it is a piece of junk. Took over a year for them to come out with a fix for the dreaded jumping

cursor (software problem). I had excellent luck with previous XPS desktops, but this laptop cured me from

ever purchasing another Dell.

[wpahnelas]

<p>Personally, I don't believe in spending a lot of money on new computer hardware. I recently bought a ultra-portable Samsung notebook computer that travels like a netbook but is robust as my desktop. It cost $350. It's not that I don't appreciate the performance of higher-end machines, but they just become obsolete so quickly, and so long as what I'm using can run my editing suite at an acceptable speed, I'm satisfied. In a year or two, or whenever I feel like it, I'll pick up something that's twice as fast for about the same price. I always work with portable hard drives, so migrating from one system to another is fairly painless. A $1,200-$1,500 machine, on the other hand, will be way past its prime before you can justify junking it. For me, that seems like a bad investment, but YMMV.</p>

[szrimaging]

<p>My recommendation would be to get a hold of HP's refurb department. I bought my laptop from them 4 years ago, and got what would have been an $1800 computer for $900 with 3-year full warranty. And i am yet to meet a laptop from any brand that hasn't failed at some point (typically the hinges or connection to screen from the mother/mainboard).</p>

<p>All that said, if I had to buy new, Lenovo all the way, with maybe Asus as a backup to that. Every IBM/Lenovo I have had has been excellently made and very robust. Something that is critical in a travel computer.</p>

<p>And buy from the business end of products, not consumer, whenever possible. Business computers typically have a higher build quality and less bloatware from the get-go.</p>

[k.andy_photos]

<p>Well there is a lot of information here, to take into consideration. </p>

<p>Peter, Thank you for the input. I plan on running photoshop, lightroom and I always have other editing software programs running also. So RAM will definitely be considered. So let me understand this quickly, I can purchase a laptop with say an average amount of RAM and then purchase more as I need it? <br>

Parv, I don't think I could go anything smaller than a 11 inch screen, however I do not like the 15:9 ratio I believe it is. Just seems to make photo editing a enormous pain when it comes to horizontal photos. Perhaps it's just minor details. Something lightweight would be nice but not the most necessary. (Though I do like it for plane and train rides.) I cannot imagine that I will be doing very much heavy writing. I do have a desktop at home that I run a lot of my heavy work on. But for ease of editing while traveling, I would like to have something that could keep up. I had a gateway back in college and the thing was awful. Took almost five minutes to load a RAW file on photoshop. <br>

Going by everyone's answers, I am greatly considering either Lenovo or Asus. Now to the Refurbished side of the laptops, has anyone ever done this? Input on the machine would be great. I have been looking, but just by having refurbished phones, I am quite reluctant to do this. What sites have you used?<br>

Thanks to all who have contributed answers.</p>

[danny_low]

<p>Kali</p>

<p>To run Photoshop, Lightroom, etc. what you need is at least 2.4GHz CPU, 8GB RAM and 500MGB disk. While more is better, this will do quite well. You can get this for $500-$1000. For prices this low, you might as well buy the system fully loaded rather than buy something lesser and upgrading later.</p>

<p>Danny Low</p>

 

[szrimaging]

<p>Refurb equipment, in my experience, has been as good or better than new equipment. Companies like Apple, Dell or HP go through and check it much more intensely then some new equipment. Also, some companies (I know HP and Apple, not sure on Dell) give you the exact same warranty as new products. And refurb also doesn't mean there was anything wrong in the first place, someone could have bought it then returned it just because they didn't like it (or was shipped a wrong model and exchanged it for the correct one).</p>

<p>Currently I run a refurb HP and refurb iPad, and given the savings, I don't think there is a better solution. I also have had an iPhone and Sony MiniDisc player refurbed, both never had issues (although I ended up disliking the iPhone 3G, buggy as all heck).</p>

[k.andy_photos]

<p>Okay, I am going to look into some Refurbs, I appreciate the info Zach. </p>

<p>Danny, Would the Ideapad V570 laptop from Lenovo qualify as having the specs I would need? Assuming I would probably have to purchase more RAM.</p>

<p>I will check back later this afternoon with you all. </p>

[danny_low]

<p>The Lenovo web site indicates that 2GB is the <strong>maximum</strong> RAM for that laptop. That is way too small. You might get by with 4GB RAM but 8GB is recommended.</p>

<p>BTW I would not count on being able to upgrade anything in a laptop. Easy upgrades is one of the features that is usually eliminated to get a small, light weight, cheap laptop. My experience is that company literature are very good at hiding this fact. I would ask for the product number and price for a memory upgrade kit. If they cannot provide one, then you cannot upgrade the memory. If they can provide a product number, double check that it is for your laptop and not another laptop in the manufacturer's lineup. If your seller provides a 3rd party memory kit, I would be skeptical. I used to be responsible for memory kits for HP PC's. It was amazing how many combinations that should work, did not.</p>

<p>Danny Low</p>

 

[szrimaging]

<p>Danny, Typically, except for Apple, RAM and harddrives are extremely easy to get to on a laptop. Remove a couple of screws and a cover and it's right there. That said, some of the new "ultrabook" category laptops may use similar unibody construction to the Macbooks, so those are probably not upgradeable. I threw some RAM into my HP about a year ago, took all of ten minutes. Harddrive is just as easy.</p>

<p>As for the system with 2GB max, did you look at the netbook instead of a laptop? All the laptops should max out well over 2GB.</p>

[J.W. Wall]

<p>Modern Macbook Pro laptops are easy to upgrade RAM or hard drive, I believe. </p>

[bill_dewberry]

<p>I was at the office of a software developer client yesterday, thay had an Asus laptop on a desk, they said they love it.</p>

[k.andy_photos]

<p><a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1027210&CatId=4938">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1027210&CatId=4938</a></p>

<p>Zach and Danny, What about this Asus? I can't seem to touch a Lenovo with the same amount of RAM for around the same price. The best I could find is 4GB. <br>

I can't seem to get onto the website I want tonight. I think I will try this Asus for a basis of comparison. It seems to have more RAM than the average laptop for a decent price. I'm getting a headache going over all this information.<br>

Bill, I appreciate the feedback.</p>

<p>Thanks guys.</p>

<p>-As I stated before, Mac is not an option. </p>

 

[hjoseph7]

<p>Some good deals on Lenovo laptops here, OMG 8GB Ram : <a href="http://www.deals2buy.com/?utm_medium=typo">http://www.deals2buy.com/?utm_medium=typo</a></p>

[danny_low]

<p>Kali</p>

<p>ASUS makes good hardware. When I was working at HP years ago, they were the one outside firm that HP chose to make some HP model PCs. The only question is after sales service. Apple, HP and Lenovo offer one business day service if anything should happen to your laptop. It costs extra but if you are really dependent on your laptop it is worth every penny. I do not know what arrangement ASUS has for servicing their own brand laptops. But from a pure hardware view, I would not hesitate to get an ASUS laptop.</p>

<p>Danny</p>

 

[szrimaging]

<p>Well, that exact one has a few down points, IMHO.</p>

<p>1. Integrated Graphics - This means the graphics are an integrated part of the motherboard and they will use resources allotted to other things. Basically, with integrated graphics, instead of having the 6GB of RAM listed, more likely you will have 5.75GB (aprox value) of RAM available to the system. This may or may not be an issue.</p>

<p>2. The processor - It's a dual core. Just means it won't be as good at multi-tasking or programs that take full advantage of multi-core CPUs. Once again, you may or may not notice that much difference.</p>

<p>Just out of curiosity, how big are the images you handle? Are we talking from 18MP camera or below, or something much higher? Scanned Large Format? I ask, because the size of the files well help determine the need of the system.</p>

[danny_low]

<p>1. Integrated Graphics - A poorly done design may use main memory for video memory. A well done design will have its own specialized video memory and use no more resources than a graphics card. Integrated graphics are nearly universal with laptops as they free up a slot for accessory cards and uses less power than a separate video card. Photoshop and Lightroom use basic graphics resources unlike games which can use maximum resources. With the current state of graphics cards, it is really a "don't care" as just about anything you get will be more than adequate.</p>

<p>2. The processor - It's a dual core. Just means it won't be as good at multi-tasking or programs that take full advantage of multi-core CPUs. Once again, you may or may not notice that much difference.</p>

<p>By definition, dual-core is multi-core as it has 2 cores which is more than one. It will only run 2 threads instead of 4 threads of a 4 core CPU but that is still multitasking and faster than a single core CPU. The big problem with multi-core CPUs is a program has to be written specifically to take advantage of the multiple cores. This is extra work and many programmers do not bother unless their programs has to be the fastest. Photoshop only has portions of it written to use multiple cores. Most people may not notice the difference between 2 and 4 core simply because the software they are running do not take advantage of the multiple cores. Only Windows itself is guaranteed to be written for multiple cores. Despite being around for years, most application software is still written for a single core CPU.</p>

<p>Danny</p>

 

[christy_gamble]

<p>Did you know that IBM sells certified pre-owned laptops at discounted prices? The laptops are completely reconditioned and backed by IBM warranty. I can help you find a laptop... Call me to find out what's currently in our inventory. My IBM rep page link and contact information is below. <br /><br />Christy Gamble<br />Systems Technology Group<br />ICPE Sales Specialist<br /><br />Phone: 1-770-863-2364<br />My IBM Page: ibm.com/myrep/cgamble</p>

 

[szrimaging]

<p>Danny, my understanding of the Intel Integrated graphics is that it does not have it's own RAM and utilizes system RAM. Discrete graphics, by my understanding, from ATI or Nvidia switches between the two. We are talking laptops here, so the card architecture is different than a desktop. From <a href="http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Intel-HD-Graphics-3000-graphics-solution.43710.0.html"><a href="http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-HD.23065.0.html">http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-HD.23065.0.html</a></a></p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>The <strong>Intel Graphics Media Accelerator HD Graphics, Intel HD Graphics,</strong> or <strong>GMA HD</strong> (or GMA5700MHD) is an onboard / shared memory graphics card for laptops that is bundled in the package of the new Arrandale dual core CPUs (upcoming in Q1 2010). Depending on the CPU model, the GMA HD is clocked between 166 and 500 MHz (with Turbo Boost max. 500-766 MHz). Compared, the the CPU <a title="Opens external link in new window" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_(integrated_circuit)">die</a>, the GPU and memory controller are produced in 45nm and not 32nm.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>And you are correct on my horrible statement of dual vs quad core. In fact, dual core can be an advantage over quad-core for performance vs dollar ratio depending on how you use a system.</p>

[danny_low]

<p>Zach</p>

<p>You are correct that some integrated graphic chips share system memory. It is basically a cost saving measure in the design. I consider it a bad design decision based on my past experience in PC design teams. It is usually done to meet a price point. The good news for a Photoshop and Lightroom user is the performance difference is usually insignificant as long as youi get more than 4GB of memory. In my experience you are more likely to run into a memory choke point than a CPU processing power choke point. Using layers can increase the file and memory size in Photoshop rather dramtically.</p>

<p>Danny</p>