Just Starting Out!

michaeldaggett · September 5, 2011

Ok, I'm an Amateur Photographer - I clearly know my lane and dont even pretend to be a Professional. In addition to the obvious lack of experience in any situation, I only have one camera body, just a couple of lenses, no studio to speak of, no insurance etc. You know the deal..... Im a hobbyist who wants to get better and learn.

I've created an image pro website, and a facebook fan page, both of which clearly spell out that I'm an amateur photographer looking for 'clients' so that I can gain the experience go to the next level, then the next level etc. Im curious from the pro's here if I am going about this the right way? What advice can you give me to help me on my journey to get to your level? I don't discount the years and years of experience, not just years on the calendar, but years of actual photography sessions.

But in order to grow my craft, I need to advertise to get clients. So I created a "business" for lack of a better word so that people will take me more serious than the creepy craigslist guy looking to shoot people hoping they get naked for their photo shoot. :)

When people see my site, my images, I hope they see at least a level of talent worth their time to help me in my art. In exchange I want to give them something for their time, prints)

Thanks!

john_macpherson · September 5, 2011

Hi Michael - I had a look at your Pro site. My expectation? That it would be full of amateurish, badly focused, poorly presented 'stuff' with the odd ok shot.

The reality? Really nice work. Very professional looking, really engaging portraits and some lovely candids. Technically very good, although some of the lighting could be a bit 'softer' but thats a real nitpick as they're about 90% there. You really have a way with people and I have to say that your landscapes (for me personally) are nowhere near as strong as your people pictures. Thats a good thing! Good landscape photogs are everywhere, but really good people shooters are not so common.

I'd suggest concentrating on the people images and dont 'dilute' them with the landscapes. Qualifier - the landscapes are not bad! They're actually pretty good, but nowhere near as accomplished as your people shots.

You've captured some real 'character' in your images and thats a real skill.

I'm not easily impressed, and you've impressed me a lot.

Good work! And good luck with making it happen - with work like this I think you might do well.

Edit PS - 'professionalism' has nothing to do with how many lenses you have, or whether you have a studio. Its all about your atttude to what you do and how you treat your customers.

michaeldaggett · September 5, 2011

John - I appreciate your comments! Thanks for your feedback! It's humbling to read, because with no formal training I

know there is so much to learn. I look at all the images on this site, and most of the time im speechless and only

dream of producing similar shots. Most of the shots you saw used natural light, unfiltered. I finally learned how to

diffuse light and use my flash in manual mode - none of which are reflected in my portfolio yet. (still learning, but I see

the possibilities)

I agree that Professionalism is an attitude, I think the attitude I have a good grasp on, but I also know there is a hugh

difference between a professional photographer, one who can support his/her lifestyle off of their work, and the many

"professionals" who produce less than quality work. The title Professional has to be given by a group of peers, not self

proclaimed.

I want to get to the point where I can do this when I retire from my current job and support my family with my work

and previous earnings :) So this "business" venture is really part of my education in preparation for the future.

Thanks again.

scottelly · September 5, 2011

Michael, the first thing you should do is get your own domain name. I suggest MikeDaggett.com or something like that (you might want to register the misspellings of your name too, like MikeDaget.com and mikedagget.com). Having your own domain name to put on your business card (you do have a business card, right?) is important, and it gives you a more "professional appearance" to potential clients who you meet at local events and just around town. It will also show people on Craigslist.com that you are a serious, professional photographer. That's why you have a Web site, afterall, right?

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You can get a domain name at Godaddy.com for about $12 per year, or you might even be able to register your domain name through your Image Pro hosting account. Look into it.

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Have you read a book about starting your own photography business. I suggest getting one. Make sure it is a new one, published since 2008 or 2009, so it will include information about marketing through social networking sites and stuff like that.

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The most important thing to do is get out there and let people know you are shooting photos for reasonable prices. Like you said, you are an amateur, so your photos and site will look that way to people. The only way to compete against the good pros is to undercut them. Many people don't care so much about the quality of their pictures . . . just that they have some decent pictures for a cheap price. This is very important right now, with the economy the way it is, so you are starting at just the right time!

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Making money as a photographer is more about being a good business man (and marketer) than being a good photographer, but you SHOULD be interested in improving your technique, so you will one day be able to charge the big bucks. That is a combination of technique and equipment - lenses being the most important part of the equipment.

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One more thing . . . don't expect too much. Don't expect to be able to "make a living" as a photographer. Even with huge amounts effort and marketing, you can not count on making a living as a photographer (unless you can find a job working as a photographer for someone else - a friend of mine recently did this, and he is doing just fine as a professional photographer now).

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Good luck!

Karim Ghantous · September 5, 2011

I'm harder to impress than John is. :-P And I still like a lot of your pics. Even where they don't work, the idea is great - it just needs aesthetic refinement (<a href="../photo/8600920">like this one</a>). <a href="../photo/14079834">This one</a>, however, is wonderful.

with no formal training

</blockquote>

It's up to you, but I suggest you keep it that way!

michaeldaggett · September 5, 2011

Karim - yes that shot is aesthetically bad, digital rebel at max ISO, I knew nothing about fixing the horizontal lines

either. I've learned since then but never re-worked the image, mostly because there is more wrong with it than I can

fix in PS :) Conceptually I can visualize them, but I'm learning to capture them properly. I think that one was also taken

in Av, when now I would go manual and capture it. the 5DMKII higher ISO certainly helps reduce the grain though.

I thought about formal training, but The Art Institute here in Indy wants 12k a year.... That's a lot of gear!

Scott - All valid points and I've thought about them, just haven't gotten there yet. Your response gives me the nudge

to wrap it up!

Thanks to the both of you!

john_macpherson · September 6, 2011

I want to get to the point where I can do this when I retire from my current job and support my family with my work and previous earnings :) So this "business" venture is really part of my education in preparation for the future.

</blockquote>

Dont sweat about that too much. I've been 'professional' (with insurance too!) for nearly 35 years, and for 30 of those years doing another job having made a conscious decision to not throw all my eggs into the photography basket.

Doing that has taken a lot of the pressure off me, allowed me to tackle subjects I might not have been able to otherwise because they dont pay hugely, but got me into some interesting places. It also meant I wasn't having to do work that I wasn't interested in photographically. Times have changed though and its a real zoo out there in the photo business so dont burn your bridges as far as proper (steady) income is concerned!

michaeldaggett · September 6, 2011

Sage advice - point well taken. To clarify, I'm setting myself up to live off my retirement income, and use this as fun

money. I have no intentions of making money with photography. I want to capture wonderful images, if I happen to

get paid for them then great, but it's a Bonus not a necessity.

hydrologic · September 6, 2011

Michael, I read these posts, your responses...you're interesting. Haven't checked out the 'folio yet, and even though I will out of sheer curiosity, I don't feel a need to in a sense of critique...not that I even would have the right at my skill and experience level. What I like and concretely know based on this reading is that you have an excellent outlook, high intelligence and, additionally based on the 3 excellent photographers' comments before mine, a great eye. These things spell success. You re not a self proclaimed know-it-all, and that is THE one thing that will assure you continue to grow. Anyway, good luck and hppy shooting!

erin_mathias · September 6, 2011

Michael,

I am alot like you. I am starting my own "business" with no formal training. Just a few classes, lots of practice, books, etc. I have moved from friends to friends of friends, and now complete strangers. I have another full time job, knowing that at this point it is not a huge money maker. My hope is in a few years to do part time of each.

I would love any constructive feedback on my site from any of you as well:

<a href="http://www.erinmathiascreations.com">www.erinmathiascreations.com</a>

Thanks,

Erin

scottelly · September 6, 2011

You have a great start Erin! Good luck!

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BTW, if you want people to be able to pick out their photos and order prints on-line, without having to do the printing yourself, my favorite site for hosting photos is Zenfolio. You can save $10 on a year of service there by using this code: 89N-6UB-A9X

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I suggest getting the $100 level account, because with that you can set your own profit margins and stuff like that. You can host a domain there (like erinmathiasprints.com), but I suggest framing your on-line proofing and print ordering site in your main site. That way you don't have to do that. Registering a domain through Godaddy.com or some other place and using your Zenfolio site that way could be an alternative way to go though. You could shoot an event, and then just give out cards with the address of the gallery where people can go to order prints. It could look something like http://www.erinmathiasprints.com/thisevent instead of http://erinmathias.zenfolio.com/thisevent (giving a more professional look to the address on the card).

William Michael · September 6, 2011

Im curious from the pro's here if I am going about this the right way? What advice can you give me to help me on my journey to get to your level?

</blockquote>

Your post and your website gave me pause.

It is an OK website. I suggest you remove the references to (other) “Professional Photographers” from your website: You mention you have a retirement fund and the basic aim is to hone this Craft and reap some “keep me going at it money” along the way – the general candour written at your website is acknowledged but self-deprecation implied by un-necessary comparisons, is just silly and also will too easily become your truth.

Also I suggest stop giving away the “free prints” – which are actually your test prints. Giving away anything, other than you very best work, will (eventually) bite you in the bum.

Websites are akin to unattended fishing rods, with kind of some bait, often dropped haphazardly in various ponds awaiting nibbles from unknown varietal fish.

I am certain that the local: Hospital, Church, School, Scout Troop, Parents & Friends Association, Lions Club . . . have Fundraising Events, regularly – no matter what business or employ you were previously associated, you MUST have connections: (i.e. “people”).

So buy few coffees, make a few telephone calls and find out what’s happening and give out this gift of yours pro bono. Get out and make some Photographs . . . and give them all a business card: you do have business cards, don’t you?

WW

Addendum:

I am NOT negating formal training and $12,000 pa in NOT too much money to pay for tuition: IF it is good tution.

michaeldaggett · September 6, 2011

WW,

Thanks for the review - I think I'm tiptoeing into this in a way acknowledging my inexperience. I think fear drives that.

I don't want to shoot a session for $$ and not get usable prints out of it. I guess I'm not into taking people's money

and not providing a "professional" service. Since the only real experience I have is with my family, I'm going the free

prints route to build a portfolio. I see where that could eventually define me and my clientele, and no, that's not the

end desire, so I'll rethink it.

You essentially hinted the same thing, but through face to face networking not static Internet advertising. I see the

difference.

My cards are in design, and I should have them soon. I registered michaeldaggett.com today and that is working. I'll

look over the site and make some corrections. I appreciate your advice!

The one thing I don't want to do is build a business of "bottom feeders" because I don't want to get locked into that

segment either. I need to re-read your comment and take it in again! Thanks for the feedback.

William Michael · September 6, 2011

“I don't want to shoot a session for $$ and not get usable prints out of it. I guess I'm not into taking people's money and not providing a "professional" service.”

</blockquote>

I commend(ed) your candour.

“I'm going the free prints route to build a portfolio. I see where that could eventually define me and my clientele, and no, that's not the end desire, so I'll rethink it.”

</blockquote>

I am not necessarily against either the principle or the practice of “free prints”, per se.

I wrote that if you give away anything OTHER than your best work – it will bite you in the bum.

To be perfectly clear (there might be other phrases) but these are the phrases which I read and to which I refered earlier in my first post (my Bold and Italics):

“Individual Portraits, Family Portraits, Senior Portraits - willing to do other photo shoots as well. While I am still learning different techniques, poses and lighting, I provide a great value for your time. Since I'm learning this art, I don't charge for sitting fees, and I usually give you the prints I make to test my color calibration, lab processing, cropping etc. This is a great way for both of us to receive good value for our time together. You get prints you can display - a CD to re-print images, and I get the opportunity to practice on someone besides my daughter. (In order to be a professional at anything, you have to practice, practice, and practice. Then practice some more.)"

"Now, if your event is a once in a lifetime event - Hire a Professional Photographer, you won't regret it. We hired a professional photographer for our wedding and the album still looks amazing 16 years later. Spend the money and hire a pro. If you are looking for some casual prints that will look fantastic, let me help you.”

I think generally, on your website, you could tone down what it is you are giving away.

“You essentially hinted the same thing, but through face to face networking not static Internet advertising. I see the difference.”

</blockquote>

Good. The difference is real: and one’s control over it is real, also.

Good luck,

WW

Karim Ghantous · September 7, 2011

I thought about formal training, but The Art Institute here in Indy wants 12k a year.... That's a lot of gear!

</blockquote>

Heck, you can buy all the equipment you need from that and get change afterwards!

If you're going to spend serious money on a course, do something with substance, such as a second language or business or something like that. Philosophy, history, psychology are also great subjects. Photography is not 'education' to me. But, again, it's not my call. :-)

michaeldaggett · September 7, 2011

WW,

Thanks for the clarification, I actually re-read your initial response, and thought that was what you meant the first time, your clarification confirms it. I agree, there were plenty of shots that I did not release to the client, nor do they know about, other than wondering what happened to a specific pose they remember me shooting. I dont bring it up. I only let out my best work for the reasons you mentioned. I want someone to see the prints and want to call me, not see them and say, "that's as good as it gets?"

Face to face networking is real. This is a people business and I believe that people hire "YOU" as much as they hire your talent. So, yes I do see the face to face networking as a better way to attract the clients I'm looking for, rather than accepting who comes along and takes the bait. My limited experience though prevents me from going all in at this point. Your point of networking at the Church, or other local places allows me the freedom to promote, while still controlling the business, I like that - thank you again.

john_macpherson · September 7, 2011

Face to face networking is real. This is a people business and I believe that people hire "YOU" as much as they hire your talent.

</blockquote>

Good photographers of people, 99% of the time photograph a response to themselves. Thats one reason why many photogs find doing it hard, and accepting WHY its not worked for them, even more difficult to swallow!

William Michael · September 7, 2011

"So, yes I do see the face to face networking as a better way to attract the clients I'm looking for, rather than accepting who comes along and takes the bait. My limited experience though prevents me from going all in at this point. Your point of networking at the Church, or other local places allows me the freedom to promote, while still controlling the business."

</blockquote>

It’s about the leverage one has: “leverage” is not necessarily a dirty word. One has been incredibly open apropos the concerns and the uncertainties about oneself. Mingling and launching the project in a CONTROLLED and KNOWN environment simply places the leverage with you: to overcome those concerns. Once initially overcome, then next week expand the circle wider.

You are welcome: candour is rare.

WW

michaeldaggett · September 7, 2011

John/WW

Thanks again, in my current career, I oversee a team of military recruiters for my state and having been a successful

recruiter for 11 years now, I think the people part I've got a handle on. I'm fairly confident in that arena, I guess it's

now time to put the other side of the coin to test. Again, I appreciate your wisdom and willingness to share your insight,

it allows me to start a leg up from where I would have, for that I'm grateful!

scottelly · September 9, 2011

I like the selective focus shot of the little girl in the Coke shirt Michael.

About the $12,000 for art school. I think if you watch a bunch of videos on YouTube and practice for six months with all your neighbors and friends, you will learn about as much as you would in art school. Then you can buy:

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Canon EOS 5 D Mk II with Canon 24-105mm f4 L IS ($3,299)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583987-REG/Canon_2764B004_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html

Canon 17mm f4 L TS-E ($2,374)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/606803-USA/Canon_3553B002_Wide_Tilt_Shift_TS_E_17mm.html

Canon 135mm f2 L ($1,034)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/112539-USA/Canon_2520A004_Telephoto_EF_135mm_f_2_0L.html

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For a total of $6,707 for the complete package! If you want to shoot indoors, you should probably get some Canon 580 EX II flashes. (I suggest two to start with.)

Though you might not want to do this, you can use those lenses on both cameras to make your lenses perform double duty. You could always add a 7 D to the mix, and bring the bill up to about $10,000 total for all the lenses, cameras, and flashes. You'll still have $2,000 left over to take a few good workshops, which is something I suggest you do ASAP. It will improve your work dramatically in a short period of time. Long, formal training in a classroom environment can be tedious though, so I DON'T recommend that, unless you're wanting to get a master's degree, so you can teach photography to students at schools for a living in a few years.

michaeldaggett · September 10, 2011

Thanks Scott - I already have the 5DMKII 24-105 and 1 580EXII. So I'm ahead of the game. The tilt shift lens is fun,

but I primarily focus on people, I'm considering the 85mmm 1.2 next, (have it coming in the mail soon as a rental) out

of curiosity, what's your reasoning for the 135 f2 L?

scottelly · September 14, 2011

If you can afford the 85mm f1.2 L Michael, you don't need the 135mm f2 L. It's a good quality, much less expensive alternative to the 85mm, but with a 7 D, the 85mm f1.2 L is like a 135mm f1.2! That's AWESOME! Enjoy that lens! (too expensive for most people)

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A friend of mine shoots with the 135mm f2 L on a 7 D, and he loves it. He really has to back up though, when he's shooting models. Here's his link:

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http://www.reidwindle.com

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He shoots with a 24-105mm f4 L IS most of the time, but when he wants to shoot tight portraits or when he wants the best bokeh he shoots with his 135mm f2 L. He doesn't like wide angle stuff, and he never uses his 70-200mm f4 L. He has used a Zeiss 85mm f1.4, but he seems to like the Canon 135mm f2 L better. Now all Canon has to do is come out with a good quality 50mm f1.4 (better construction than the one they have now) and a competitor to the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8, and they will have it made! (Except now Sony is competing, introducing all sorts of amazing new cameras, and even starting to compete in the lens arena, with their new 16-50mm f2.8 and their amazing 70-400mm f5.6. If Sony makes a really awesome 10-24mm f4 for APS-C that costs less than $700, they are really going to clean up! Both Canon AND Nikon seem to have them beat in the wide angle game. Yes, they need some tilt-shift lenses and maybe a couple of long lenses, like a 500mm f4 and an 800mm f5.6, but for the most part, they are now pretty competitive with Nikon and Canon with their lens range.)

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Make sure you try a 60 D, if you haven't tried to shoot with a camera that has a fold-out screen Michael. It allows you to make many creative shots you would normally not even try, because framing the shot would be impossible with a "regular" camera. (I'm planning to buy a Sony A77 primarily because of its fold-out screen and live-view focusing capability. Of course its high resolution and fast shooting speed are nice too! I just wish there was an adapter to use the Canon 17mm f4 L TS-E on Sony cameras. That would be AWESOME!)

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Good luck Michael.

William Michael · September 14, 2011

On a technical point: the 85/1.2 used on a 7D is more like a 135/2 (used on a 5D)

That’s not picking nits, but clarification: as the intrinsic point is the shallow DoF relationship.

WW

scottelly · September 15, 2011

William, the 85mm f1.2 lets just as much light in at f1.2 when you are using it on a 7 D or a 5 D Mk II (or any other camera). I seriously doubt it produces the same bokeh on a 7 D at f1.2 as the 135mm f2 L does at f2 on a 5 D Mk II. Of course, I have not tested this (and I doubt anyone else has). I've found that there is really not that much difference in bokeh from one sensor size to another. It's more about the lens and the way it is used than about sensor size.

William Michael · September 16, 2011

Scott, for more clarity, I am not referring to Bokeh. Nor did your previous post mention Bokeh, in the paragraph where the 85 was compared to the 135. But noted, I understood you could have been referring to Bokeh in that part of your comments, as you mention Bokeh later; but then again maybe you were not. So, I tailored my comment specifically to refer to the DoF, which I mentioned: "On a technical point" . . . "as the intrinsic point is the shallow DoF relationship". DoF is technical: Bokeh, by definition is a "quality" and is in the eye of the beholder. The differences in Bokeh of two images are (mainly) dependent upon: the Lens used; the Aperture used; and the Lighting Conditions (especially on the Background); the Nature and Texture of the Background and the Perspective of the Shot. However the DoF is dependent upon the sensor size / film format: and it this regard is related to Bokeh, but previously I was not commenting on that relationship either: but only the DoF. WW

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