Sensor Damaged During Cleaning by Professional Dealer

[abbas_haider]

Since you camera cuoght on dust rhat means it was highly used then you have to get it repair. But it was brand new

then they have to replace it but this dust came from fair usage then you have to accept the repair.

 

Apart from the subject if the are authorize dealer then you have contact nikon for such miss as we are doing sensor

cleaning frequently and never had any problem

[alex_iwonttell]

<p>Since the camera was quite new, I'd demand a new camera from them. They can take your camera, get it repaired and sell as refurbished. Since they're a certified Nikon seller, it shouldn't be a big problem for them. I think they very well know that if world would learn that their service has destroyed a D3s, anyone knowledgable would think twice to use their services.<br>

 <br>

Another option is to require some sort of other compensation, like say, £200 store credit or a few filters.<br>

 <br>

Yes, accidents happen, but that's why professional service centers have insurance. And yes, Nikon centers are especially insured ESPECIALLY, EXACTLY FOR THIS PURPOSE (damaging the customer's camera). If Nikon takes this issue so seriously, so should the store and also the customer.</p>

[amitc]

<p>Thank you for all the responses. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to voice their opinion.<br>

After reading your responses and thinking (a lot) more about this I feel that one of the important aspects in this case is who caused the damage. Was it the dealer (or the technician), or was it a manufacturing defect? If it was the dealer who caused this, then my case for a replacement is strong.<br>

Whereas if it was a manufacturing defect, then it's Nikon's responsibility to fix the problem. Given that this is a 4 month old camra, not sure what is Nikon's policy is for replacement / repair. I need to speak to Nikon when the camera reaches their service center.<br>

I did speak with Nikon on Friday and they mentioned that they don't recommend sensor cleaning with anything except a blower. I was slightly surprised to hear this because the dealer claims that they clean 100's of Nikon cameras every month and do a solution based cleaning. Need more details on this to understand if the dealer is at fault to clean using a method that is not recommended by Nikon.<br>

One of my fears is that I'm not sure what else may have been damaged, i.e. if the dealer used excessive solution or dropped solution on the sensor where else it may have spilled or gotten into. I only got to see the sensor and it was in a very bad shape. Basically there were 4 solution bubbles between the low pass filter and the sensor.<br>

One of the items I have to agree with is that given the size and global business of this dealer they definitely have insurance to cover such kind of incidents / accidents. For them to replace this camera would not be in a big deal (in terms of cost).<br>

I guess it is important for me to speak to Nikon and understand in detail the cause and nature of the damage. This would be helpful in deciding what my next steps should be and will also be helpful in understanding the nature and extent of the damage.</p>

 

[indraneel]

<p>After thinking some more, I'm completely at a loss to understand how "cleaning fluid" might have ruined the sensor. I've scraped and poked the sensor in my D70 to no end with copious amounts of 70 to 90% isopropanol and so far only the black AA filter retainer has melted (?) a little. I've also removed the AA filter some years back, a 15 minute operation, and have not had any ribbon cable problems yet. Also, "he said she said" but, somebody said that refurbished items go through a stricter check. I'd still want an accident protection though...</p>

<p>OTOH, Nikon might just decide to "crap" the camera and make the shop "eat" it! I'd kinda feel sorry for the sensor cleaner guy if that happens...</p>

[2Oceans]

<p>Amit, The two things that would matter to me would be 1. Will you not have confidence in the camera if it is repaired? 2. Does your ethos drive you demand a new camera regardless? If yes to either then you should do what you feel that you need to do. I am sympathetic. I purchased my D3S in June and so far no problems. Good luck Andy</p>

[ant_nio_gomes]

<blockquote>

<p>If it was the dealer who caused this, then my case for a replacement is strong.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Amit,<br>

As you say, "(...) <em>because the offering was free and this dealer was a Certified Professional Store</em> (...) <em>I decided to take up the offer and get the sensor cleaned</em>". This may indicate you were aware of the delicate nature of the operation and that there were risks involved, and one (that has not been referred yet) is if this made the Nikon's warranty void.<br>

One point you do not refer is if the dealer inspected your camera and said a cleaning was needed or if it was your own initiative to ask for it.<br>

Another is if there were any explicit terms of responsibility declared by the store to inform your decision or your confidence came only from their quality as a Certified Professional Store ( probably not the same as a Certified Professional Nikon Repairer).<br>

Something went wrong and the seller takes responsibility, offering you to get the camera repaired by the manufacturer and lending you a camera (same model) during the period of the repair, claiming this will restore the situation prior to the event and will not cause you any use disturbance.<br>

You don't agree and claim a brand new camera because your's was new.<br>

I suspect this will be your legal case and you shall evaluate your advantages and disadvantages going that road. Upfront, you will not get a substitute camera during the time it will run.<br>

The store will obviously call the cases of some manufacturers whose warranty conditions give them the decision of repairing or substitution, and this one for a brand new or a refurbish unit at their own will - not playing in your favor. As a big group their legal arms will do everything to win the cause if they decide not to offer you a new camera instead (sometimes these kind of decisions are not based just on simple financial equations, like cost of the camera versus legal costs). <br>

I'm not that familiar with the UK legal on this kind of events and this can make a big difference, so it is hard to give you a sound advice and is up to you to decide.<br>

However, if you go the other way, I think you shall clarify that is Nikon to repair the camera and that will imply a full evaluation of the damages, not just a sensor change (I'm sure that Nikon would do that anyway), the implications for the camera's original warranty, and if necessary the warranty Nikon gives to the repair.</p>

[johnw63]

<p>I would guess that the dealer is going to eat the cost of repair, since it clearly states in their user guides that you should only use a blower to clean your sensor. It certainly does in mine. ( D7000 ) .</p>

<p>Which brings up another question... If Nikon now knows the camera has been improperly cleaned, can they void the warranty ? If that can happen, then you have a strong case for a replacement camera. At least I think so, but I am not a lawyer.</p>

<p> </p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the States some companies will occassionally return a camera or lens in better condition than when it was new. I sent in a lens for Nikon to dissassemble and clean, and when I got it back it was just ever-so-slightly sharper with ever-so-slightly less CA wide open than when it was new. I asked around, and the consensus seems to be that the repair shops often have tighter tolerances than the factories, since they don't want to risk having a product come back for repair again for the same issue. Of course, this obviously happens more when the product is originally made in Thailand or some other subcontracted factory.</p>

<p>As mentioned some parts work best the first time, and I don't know what's what.</p>

<p>I would call Nikon Service and tell them what happened. Try not to get upset and talk about how terrible they are; say that it was an authourized dealer, and that you are dissapointed that someone representing them isn't better trained. They will give you a repair number. Make sure that number is on the box that the camera gets sent in, and write a little note with the number to ship with the camera. You are almost guaranteed that your camera will end up on the bench of one of their best repair techs.</p>

<p>When you speak to the store, take a similar approach. Don't tell them how unhappy you are; tell them that you think someone in their position should train their employees better. Don't blame the employee - he was probably just doing his job as well as he was trained. Blame the store for putting him in that position. If you blame the employee, you give the store the ability to say, "Yeah, he did screw up," and that takes a lot of the heat off the store - and certainly off the manager. You don't want the manager to feel he's off scott-free, because he's the guy that can help you. If you blame the store, then they have nowhere to go but to admit that they, as a store, screwed up.</p>

<p>If you yell and scream, people will only be as helpful as they need to be to make you shut up and go away. If you go for the sympathy vote, I assure you you'll get better treatment.</p>

[Landrum Kelly]

<p>As long as you can keep shooting and finally get it fixed, what difference does it make? The sensor replacement will not damage the camera in any way.</p>

<p>I am still surprised that, for the sake of repeat business, they do not replace the camera and consider the broken one their camera now--to fix and then to sell as refurbished.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[Richard Williams]

<p>You might consult the CAB:</p>

<p>http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/consumer_affairs/buying_services_your_rights.htm<br>

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/get_advice.htm</p>

<p>Sounds like this service wasn't carried out "with reasonable care or skill".</p>

<p>One company that fits your description also operates an equipment rental business. If so, I'd be inclined to (strongly) suggest that they add the repaired body to their rental inventory and give you a new one right away, in compensation for the major damage and inconvenience their mistake has caused.</p>

[amitc]

<p>Richard, thank for the link. Yes, it is "that" company.</p>

<p>I spoke with the dealer today and they have sent the camera to Nikon. Nikon should have it in their system by Wednesday and should have an initial review complete by the end of this week.</p>

<p>I also spoke with the Nikon service center earlier today and they said that "the cost of replacing the sensor on the D3s is almost the cost of a new camera". I would be surprised if either the dealer or Nikon decide to spend the money and time replace the damaged sensor.</p>

<p>I guess I just have to wait and let Nikon make an assessment. I will update this forum with the details when they become available.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, thank you everyone for your responses. I really appreciate all the feedback and advise that has been provided on this forum</p>

[amitc]

<p>Antonio,<br>

"One point you do not refer is if the dealer inspected your camera and said a cleaning was needed or if it was your own initiative to ask for it."</p>

<p>Since the dealer was providing a "free" sensor cleaning the representative encouraged me to get the sensor cleaned. In fact I had the rep take a shot at f22 and he saw a couple of dust spots in the corner and the dealers advise was "since you are getting a free (professional) cleaning, you might as avail it". The dealer also recommends that the camera sensors should be cleaned once every 3 months; in fact, for pro's they recommend a cleaning once a month. Since I'm new in this field and have had the camera for 4 months I thought it would be wise to take the dealers offer since they recommended a cleaning every 3 months.</p>

<p>Zack, thanks for your sound advise. Thats exactly what I plan to do for now.</p>

[dennis_d._hardenburger]

<p>I might be wrong, but I believe a repair only has a 90 day warranty same as a refurb camera. I myself would request a new camera.</p>

[richard_eaton1]

<p>I can understand the OP's pain and disappointment.<br />I'm sure that, by spending the GBP 100 and agreeing to the free cleaning, there was a contract between the OP and the shop for this service, and, as such, the cleaning should have been carried out to a proper standard by a suitably experienced and qualified person. As this was obviously not the case, the shop is obliged to give restitution to put the OP back into the "position" he was before the damage, i.e. a camera working to the same standards, full refund of all expenses, and maybe compensation for loss of business, lost time and even stress suffered. <br />The UK Small Claims Court is a relatively simple and inexpensive way of making such a claim without a solicitor, but it would perhaps be worth taking legal advice first as to how far a Court may decide in favour of the OP, e.g. would they consider that a repaired camera <em>was</em> equal to the original, and what proof would be needed of any consequential losses.<br />However, two points worth considering....does an agreement to have the camera repaired at this time prejudice any later further possible claim for replacement with new, or for other losses? And, OTOH, and quite significantly, surely a reputable dealer will carry full insurance for public liability, losses and damage to customers goods?<br />In view of the large amount of your hard-earned money which you've spent with the dealer, and your very understandable dismay at what has happened, I'd certainly take legal advice before going further...this should also enable you to take a considered decision on how to proceed, and not have regrets later that you did not take stronger action.<br />Maybe there is also an expensive lesson here not to fiddle (or let anyone else fiddle!) with complicated gear while everything is working properly, unless (like a car) there is a manufacturers schedule for essential maintenance or service. Most mechanical and electronic items these days are made to require little or no routine servicing.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Maybe it is very frustrating, but it sounds like the OP only deserves a proper repair of his original camera. I am sure he would like to have another brand new D3S, or perhaps a new D3S plus a new 70-200mm VR II lens thrown in, but realistically, getting the original camera fixed is the right outcome.</p>

<p>As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.</p>

[jose_angel]

<p> Mmmm, I see, as usual to many empty words in this kind of issues.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"(...) this dealer was a Certified Professional Store (...) I decided to take up the offer and get the sensor cleaned"</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>It means almost nothing. From what I have seen the one who use to clean the sensors doesn`t use to be a Nikon engineer; even in that "Certified Stores".</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"the cost of replacing the sensor on the D3s is almost the cost of a new camera... "</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Tell them that if this is true, they should offer you a new camera for that little difference. Pay it and get a new camera.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"the repair shops often have tighter tolerances than the factories, since they don't want to risk having a product come back for repair again for the same issue."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I love America. Made in USA is still a warranty for me... :)<br>

---<br>

Anyway, I think the shop is giving you a reasonable good service. You certainly deserve a proper repair, specially if it is done by *real* Nikon engineers or repair staff.</p>

<p>Fighting for a new one seem to me a difficult task. Probably, you will need to ask to an expert in consumer protection laws. If you want it because you are afraid about future hidden defects, try to negotiate a trade; the repaired one for a new one.</p>

[jose_angel]

<p><small>(Ooops, Zack, yours are not empty words... sincerely. I should have included a full stop or three dashes in the previous paragraph!)</small><br /> <small> </small></p>

[amitc]

<p>I got a call from the Head of Repair of the dealer who told me that their company has decided to replace the camera with a new one. Apparantly the damaged camera got to Nikon and they didn't agree that this was a manufacturing defect. Because of the extensive damage to the sensor the dealer decided replacing the camera was the right thing to do.<br>

I have collected the new camera and do appreciate the dealer resolving this in quick time.<br>

Thank you to everyone on this forum who expressed their interests and opinions on this thread.</p>

[jose_angel]

<p>Congratulations! This certainly cultivate customer`s loyalty. They have giving you the best solution.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Jose, not really the best solutions; as I pointed out earlier, the best solution would be a new D3S plus a new 70-200mm/f2.8 AF-S VR II. :-)</p>

<p>But seriously, I think the camera store went overboard to correct their own mistake.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>I love America. Made in USA is still a warranty for me... :)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What is still made in America?</p>

[dave_wilson1]

<p>Nice! 8-)))</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>"What is still made in America?" Turn-signal light bulbs for Toyota pick-up trucks.....</p>

<p> </p>

[mariosforsos]

<p>First of all, I'm surprised they would pour ANYTHING on the sensor or even that whatever liquid they embedded onto whatever cleaning pad they used was enough to "get under the low-pass filter". Furthermore, I was not aware that was a possibility... still, you live and learn...;-)</p>

<p>What the dealer is offering is perfectly fair. I recently (during a month-long trip, under harsh conditions, in Africa) scratched the low-pass filter on my D3s and had to send the whole camera (under warranty) for repair (since I'm an NPS member) to the authorised dealer. The sensor was replaced (unlike the D3 and the D3x, the low-pass filter on the D3s cannot be replaced on its own due to the sensor-cleaning mechanism embedded on the D3s), all the plastic grip material (which, FYI, are removed when the camera is opened) were replaced by new ones, the camera was reset and recalibrated using their specialist electronic equipment, it was cleaned and tested and was returned to me within 3 days. It did cost me around 1,500 euros but you literally cannot tell the camera was ever repaired! With the new grips, if anything, it looks newer than what I sent in...</p>

<p>PLUS, I got the old sensor as a souvenir to play around with...;-)))</p>

<p>Just make sure they do not try to charge you for anything...</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p><em>I have collected the new camera and do appreciate the dealer resolving this in quick time.</em></p>

<p>Good. I think this is the only responsible action by Nikon and the store as the store essentially lured the OP to bring the camera to cleaning which was then done incompetently, causing considerable stress and additional trouble to the OP who might never have needed the cleaning in the first place.</p>

<p>"the cost of replacing the sensor on the D3s is almost the cost of a new camera".</p>

<p>This I find very hard to believe. And if is true it means that the workforce doing the repairs are grossly overpaid. The D3s sensor should cost a small fraction of the price of the camera to Nikon (the existence of cameras such as the A850, A900, D700 and 5D Mk II basically prove that the full frame sensor isn't <em>that</em> expensive to make; it's more a question that because the D3s is such a high performer in its field, it is priced high based on the estimated value that the product has to the user). Of course if Nikon wants to make a large profit on spare parts then it could cost half of the price of the camera but it's hardly a customer friendly practice to those whose sensor stops working for e.g. electrical failure just outside of the warranty period.</p>

<p>I see this philosophy of making products in such a way that repair is almost always impossible or cost-prohibitative does no favours to the environment or the natural resources on this planet. It is shameful really. When the shift lock of my 24 PC-E was damaged (in normal, if extensive use) they just gave me a new one. This is IMO utterly ridiculous as the optics must surely be more expensive than a simple locking screw.</p>