Sppedlights or studio ligjhts?

[PhotoWorksbyDon]

<p>I'm looking to do more portrait work but I don't have a "studio." If I do indoor stuff it will either be on location, meaning someone else's home/business or outdoors. I'd like to do more outdoor then indoor and was wondering if it's better to go with four (or more) 580 EXII speedlights with stands and softbaxes/snoots/etc... or go with a studio lighting package. I've seen some pretty incredible stuff done with speedlights and they seem so much more versatile.<br>

<br /> Suggestions and direction most appreciated.<br>

<br /> I use a Canon 50D but may bump to a full-frame in the near future, though I am happy with the 50D. if that helps.</p>

<p>I shot these with the 580EXII and liked how they came out.<br>

<img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/13123177-md.jpg" alt="" /><br>

<br /><br /> <img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/13123176-md.jpg" alt="" /><br>

<br /> Thanks</p>

[b_christopher]

<p>Whatever gets the job done, I guess. The only differences between speedlites and studio flash I can think of is; difference in power and readily available modifier choices.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>Neither a speedlight or a more powerful "studio" flash is more versatile: the versatility is up to you.<br>

The advantages of multiple speedlights is simple: you have 4 lights which you can group together in any combination ( I like the FourSquare http://www.lightroomdirect.com system for this purpose : I can use it with the 30" FourSquare softbox or wit hte accesspr y adapter rods any standard mount (i.e. Chimera speedring based) softbox, umbrella, or simply grouped together) or you can split them apart, and TTL control. The downsides are: waiting for the battery powered capacitors to recycle, no modeling light, limitations imposed by battery capacity), and limited amount of power for the dollars invested so your depth of field can be limited.<br>

The advantages of more AC powered light: more energy to work with, a real modeling light in each head, & much faster recycling. The downsides are: you always need AC or a high wattage external battery (some of the more powerful lights are strictly battery driven, they are larger, heavier, and really require heavier duty stands.</p>

<p>With more powerful "studio" type systems you have a choice between monolights (the state of the art in this category is the Paul C. Buff Einstein 640) or pack and head systems. Broncolor, Calumet/Bowens, Dynalite, Elinchrom, Hensel, Profoto and Speedotron all make very good powerful systems . </p>

<p>But really the versatility is down to you and depending on what you are doing sometimes one type of system is more suited to the work you are doing than the other </p>

<p>I regularly use both types of systems, sometimes even in combination with each other. </p>

[richardsperry]

http://lightwaredirect.com/

[PhotoWorksbyDon]

<p>Thanks all. I have considered the lack of modeling light. I'm not sure power is an issue for what I want to do but obviously could be in the future. Modeling lights certainly would be an advantage. I'm relatively new to lighting and every little bit of knowledge and experience helps, so thanks.</p>

<p>I'm not sure I want to lug big and heavy power packs down to the beach, haha.</p>

<p>Thank again for taking the time to respond. You've been very helpful.</p>

[kevin_delson]

<p>With technolgy improving every day, having the ability with (both) systems should be part of your decision making process.</p>

<p>The DC-AC inverter packs are getting lighter every day, esp with the newer Lithium Ion packs.</p>

<p>You may want to look at your budget and then make a decision if you bias more to high power studio lights or on location shoots w/ speedlights. Even a great speedlight setup is not cheap; although I suppose the word (inexpensive) is relative.</p>

<p>While both have advantages and disadvantages, you may want to put more money into a speed light setup and back it up with a modest studio setup.</p>

<p>Having enough light has not been a problem I enjoy; but rather packing light and fast.<br>

Umbrellas, SB's and any other modifiers should be planned out well before making a purchase. The weight of light stands should also play into your decisions.</p>

<p>I've seen too many photogs arrive at a shoot only to struggle with setup/teardown time or stands tipping over etc...</p>

<p>More light while great in theory is meaningless; efficient use of the light is where it's at.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<blockquote>

<p>http://lightwaredirect.com/</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks for the correction Richard! I had a serious case of Lightroom on the brain today. </p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>When purchasing gear, try to imagine the kind of shots you will want to do tomorrow and not the kind you are doing today. Four speedlights is not that much lighter or bulkier or cheaper than somethign like a Elinchrom Ranger for example. Definitely look at a 400 w-s Lumadyne . </p>

[studio460]

<p>If you don't need to overpower the sun, or need wicked-fast recycle times, Speedlights can do a lot. Add some umbrella brackets, throw up some Foamcore, and you can light just about anything. I have one Nikon SB-800, and recently added four Nikon SB-600s to use with my Nikon SU-800 IR commander (Canon makes a similar commander). So, now I have five Speedlights, all under wireless-TTL control.</p>

<p><img src="http://studio460.com/images/IR-1c.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="398" /><br /> Nikon SU-800 IR Commander</p>

<p>Fancy, high-priced AC power packs and studio heads allow you to compete with the sun and perform large-source lighting in bright, broad daylight, using silks, softboxes, etc. The best even come with built-in PocketWizard or other remote-triggering technologies built in.</p>

<p>For outdoor stuff, I just ordered two Alien Bees' Vagabond minis (Li-I batteries with built-in AC inverters). I plan to buy a 320Ws B800, and a 640Ws B1600 monolight to go with them. These tools are $1,000s less than their Profoto-brand counterparts. If these things actually work, it should be fun.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Ellis mentioned:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>With more powerful "studio" type systems you have a choice between monolights (the state of the art in this category is the Paul C. Buff Einstein E640 . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, I just checked these units out online. Wow! Variable power from 2.5Ws to 640Ws. Works with the PocketWizard MiniTT1 transmitter (on the camera) with the addition of a $99 PocketWizard PowerMC2, which plugs directly into the E640! From their website: "[The E640] can tolerate power line voltages as low as 35VAC from Vagabond or similar pure sine inverters without crashing." A PocketWizard-controllable 640Ws strobe for $499USD (plus, the $99 for the MC2) that works with the Vagabond mini? Forget the Alien Bees' heads! I'm getting one of these!</p>

[studio460]

<p>I actually forgot to mention the key differences in my earlier posts, which is pretty crucial when making this decision. I faced this same dilemma a few months ago. I bought into a "strobist" multi-Speedlight set-up, but soon realized its limitations as far as brute-force light output is concerned. To me, here are the <em>key</em> differences (I'm sure there are more):</p>

<p><strong><em>Speedlights</em></strong><br /> Pros:<br /> 1. Lightweight and compact.<br /> 2. Works with camera's i-TTL remote IR flash commanders (e.g., Nikon's CLS).<br /> 3. No cables or wires to deal with.</p>

<p>Cons:<br /> 1. Slow recycle times (without the use of high-voltage battery packs).<br /> 2. High cost per guide no./Watt-seconds of output, compared with studio strobes.<br /> 3. Not powerful enough to light through large modifiers in full daylight.</p>

<p><em><strong>AC-powered Studio Strobes:</strong></em><br /> Pros:<br /> 1. Many more times the light output (10x, 20x, etc.) of even the most powerful Speedlights.<br /> 2. Fast recycle times.<br /> 3. Powerful enough to light through large modifiers in full daylight.</p>

<p>Cons:<br /> 1. Power packs are heavy.<br />2. Each head has to be cabled to the power pack.<br /> 3. Requires access to AC power.</p>

[bill_from_new_york_city]

<p>I shoot with both. But when it comes to the lighting has to be flexible and setup on location I bring the speedlights.</p>

<p>To bring me up a few notches with my lighting in this area I took New York City photographer Neil van Niekerk Speedlight workshop in New York City. All of his the photographs on his website his are with speedlights. The reason I took the workshop was for location shooting and shooting on the streets on New York City you have to be very flexible.</p>

<p>His website is <a href="http://neilvn.com/">http://neilvn.com/</a> and he has two books. I have both of his books but his workshop brought everything together for me.</p>

<p>Studio strobes have their uses too, for a beauty or fashion shoot where I want very bright light. Also I feel studio strobes are not as flexible as I have to have lighting stands, sandbags to weight them down and power cords that have to reach an outlet.</p>

<p>For the portrait work you are doing and it has to be on location where setting up the lighting has to be flexible, speedlights are better.</p>

<p>I just wonder why do you feel you need so many speedlights? The most I have are three and most of the time it is one speedlight I am using. Sometimes I will use two lights with the second light as fill. The third speedlight is a backup in case a light fails.</p>

<p>Bill</p>

 

[PhotoWorksbyDon]

<p>Thanks for all the feedback and advice. This is all very, very helpful for now and in the future. I'm still leaning more towards picking up a couple more speedlights. Why four? Primarily I don't think three is quite enough for some of indoor situations I see myself shooting in. I just did a shoot in a loft and the way it was set up the beams were throwing some wicked shadows that my two 580s along with a reflector couldn't overcome. I am open to the fact that it could be user ignorance, but I also know I could have overcome the problem with another source of light.This experience prompted the question since I know studio lights also would have solved the problem, but I don't have any.</p>

<p>I will definitely check out Neil's site. I did get a book on Canon speedlight shooting written buy Syl Arena and so far it appears to be very comprehensive.</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Bill said . . .</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I just wonder why do you feel you need so many speedlights? The most I have are three and most of the time it is one speedlight I am using. Sometimes I will use two lights with the second light as fill. The third speedlight is a backup in case a light fails.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Personally, I knew I wanted four Speedlights, at minimum. I have the one SB-800 (wish I had two to bounce more light into larger sources), and the four SB-600s. When I first got them, I set up a portrait shot and bounced the SB-800 into a 60" umbrella. I filled with one SB-600. Used a second SB-600 for a 3/4-backlight, then a third SB-600 to heat up the background. While for many types of shots (e.g., exterior locations), many images will demand only one or two Speedlights, but I think four would be the minimum most would want when lighting interiors.<br>

<br />In fact, now that I see what's possible with an IR commander like the Nikon SU-800 (which can control a virtually unlimited amount of Speedlights), I would like to shoot more interior design stuff. In that case, I could use many more Speedlights than just four.</p>

[anthony_bridges]

<p>I shoot Strobist (speedlights) and with a monolight. I love shooting with strobes but they aren't perfect. One thing which I think has been missed is color temp. Speedlight color temperatures vary more over different power settings than a flash head. It's not very noticeable on a small shoot but it can be occasionally irking when shooting multiple shots. Flash heads are not immune to this, either, but it is less of a problem and the new PB Eienstien is designed to address color temp problems. </p>

[studio460]

<p>Anthony said . . .</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I shoot Strobist (speedlights) and with a monolight . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, I think the modern photographer is likely to benefit from a bit of both. A bag of Strobist tools for their light weight, ease-of-use, and portability, and a monolight or two for their increased power range. For those with home studios, sure, even a full AC power pack system. I think the Vagabond Mini really opens up new possibilities for the location photographer that either needs to shoot through larger modifiers, or needs to compete with the sun in bright daylight.</p>

<p>Although I've already invested in an IR-based "Strobist" system, with a Nikon SU-800 IR Commander and five Speedlights, I'll likely also invest in a PocketWizard/monolight system as well, probably the Einstein, to go along with my Vagabond Minis. This way I'll have the best of both worlds, and be able to light large sources on location, even in bright daylight. Between IR commanders, "CLS" capable flash systems, TTL PocketWizard RF systems, and affordable battery-inverter solutions, I think we have a number of new tools available to us, able to perform an extremely wide variety of tasks.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Well I just shot some tests at dusk at the beach with my Nikon SU-800, and an off-camera Nikon SB-600 positioned on a stand. It apparently doesn't like humidity. It did fine in the late-afternoon light of the sun, but failed to fire in direct sunlight. Once the sun dropped, and the humidity increased--nothing. Even pointing the SU-800 directly at the flash IR receiver three feet away.</p>

<p>Good thing I did these tests. I've now decided to move to a PocketWizard RF system exclusively for exteriors. I plan to buy the PocketWizard PowerMC2 plugged into a Paul C. Buff Einstein E640 monolight, in conjunction with a PocketWizard MiniTT1 on my hot shoe. I'll power the E640 monolight with an Alien Bees' Vagabond Mini AC inverter. The SU-800 works great indoors, but its performance is very inconsistent outdoors in high humidity, and under high ambient daylight conditions.</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>When the company her league contracted with not only didn't show up to shoot my daughter's soccer team portrait when scheduled a couple of weeks ago , but then lied about not showing up, I volunteered to do the shot. Here is a photo of the rig I used: 2 x Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 moonlights, one powered by a Vagabond Mini Lithium battery, and the other powered by an Older Vagabond II. One Einstein had a Silver beauty Dish and the other had a white Beauty Dish, both from Paul C. Buff as well. The wireless triggering was via the PocketWizard ControlTL system with PowerMC2 receivers on the lights and a MiniTT1 with AC3 ZoneController on my Canon EOS 1Ds Mk. 3.<br>

I used Beauty Dishes instead of umbrellas or softboxes as I wanted as low a wind profile as possible, but also larger diameter sources. They are up about 7 feet up i the air. </p><div></div>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>I'd say the kids were about 15-18 feet from the camera and my exposure was ƒ/11, 1/200. ISO 250.<br /> The only processing beyond Lightroom defaults was using Recovery at 25, leveling the composition and cropping to 8x10 dimensions. For the version posted here, the blackouts were added in Photoshop to protect the kids privacy.</p>

<p>I admit that it is not a very exciting pic but the parents were happy.</p><div></div>

[studio460]

<p>Ellis posted . . .</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Here is a photo of the rig I used: 2 x Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 moonlights, one powered by a Vagabond Mini Lithium battery . . . The wireless triggering was via the PocketWizard ControlTL system with PowerMC2 receivers on the lights and a MiniTT1 . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ellis, thank you for posting those images, and for posting all of the other helpful information on the Paul C. Buff products. You've really sold me on these, and I am now about to make my final order. Prior to hearing about the Vagabond Minis, I was considering a ridiculously expensive Profoto battery pack. Now, I'm planning on ordering a PocketWizard MiniTT1 (for Nikon i-TTL), a Power MC2 receiver, and the Einstein E640. A few questions:</p>

<p>1.) Does the Nikon i-TTL version of the MiniTT1-MC2-E640 combination support i-TTL Nikon control over the E640, or does it simply allow you to control the variable power output of the E640 via your camera's exposure compensation dial? [Note: I'm using a Nikon D3s, which has no separate flash exposure compensation dial. This is <em>mostly</em> a non-issue, since I'll be shooting in manual mode most of the time in this set-up anyway, and using the exposure compensation dial (which would otherwise operate globally, since the D3s has "no built-in flash") to control flash-output only, in that mode.]</p>

<p>2.) If the MiniTT1-MC2-E640 combo does support Nikon i-TTL control, is the E640 firing a pre-flash?</p>

<p>3.) Also, unlike the AC9, required for the Alien Bees heads, the MC2 does <strong><em>not</em></strong> require an additional FlexTT5 on the flash head to operate, correct? The MC2 plugs directly into the E640 (instead of their proprietary CSXCV module), right? Then, all you need is a MiniTT1 on your camera's hot shoe, and you're good to go, yes?</p>

<p>3.) The new Vagabond Minis seem too good to be true. I have two units on order, and I keep checking to see if I forgot to order the battery or something (apparently, it's included in the $239). How can something this powerful only cost $239, when competing units are hundreds, even thousands more? What's the "catch?"</p>

<p>4.) The Einstein E640 really does seem unique in its capabilities, especially in its ultra-low 2.5Ws dial-able output. Buff claims it will operate under voltage as low as 30VAC, whereas the comparable Elinchroms seem to need minimum, 90VAC to function. Again, this sounds too good to be true.</p>

<p>5.) I plan on ordering the Buff softboxes as well: the 24" x 36" and the 32" x 40"--do I need a reflector on the E640 to mount in the softbox, or do they go in "bare?"</p>

<p>Sorry for the million questions, but you seem the resident expert on these systems. Thanks again, for all the helpful information!</p>

[studio460]

<p>I said . . .</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Buff claims [the E640] will operate under voltage as low as <em>30VAC</em> . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Correction: the E640 operates at voltages as low as <strong><em>35VAC</em></strong> from a pure sine-wave inverter (which is still amazingly low!).</p>

[PhotoWorksbyDon]

<p>Update:</p>

<p>Did a shoot last weekend with the speedlights and wasn't terribly persuaded yet one way or the other. I don't think I have enough experience yet to make a decision as I have to think most of the errors were user-caused, lol.</p>

<p>I'm so thankful for the Buff suggestions and that this thread will remain here for reference, should I decide to go that way. I'll need better results from the speedlights not to go that way, so I'll be keeping this in mind.</p>