Simply looking for validation through commiseration

[deedee_jones]

<p>Still rather new to the business (I've got about six weddings under my belt at this point), but so far everyone's been really happy with my work, until now.... </p>

<p>I charged $500 for 8 hours of coverage, plus a separately manned photobooth.</p>

<p>She is upset about photos like this:</p>

<p>Because I didn't take it in front of the barn or the house or the whatever at the venue. I was shooting for light and intimacy. Or because I cut a sliver off the top of someone's head or because I cut off the edge of her bouquet or because I didn't capture the "grandness" of the room. She sent me a nice little list of criticisms. I, personally, feel proud of my work, especially considering how a wedding photographer guest/friend present said to me, "I shoot weddings for a living and this wedding is really hard." </p>

<p>I've already agreed to refund her the total minus the $150 deposit.</p>

<p>I'm just looking for validation through commiseration really.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[bob_sunley]

<p>Why would you even present this photo?</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>It's hard to sympathise with the bride. If she paid $500 she shouldn't be expecting professional photos.</p>

 

[joshroot]

<p>Really guys? A beginner shows up to photo.net with her first "problem" wedding, and that is the best advice you guys can come up with? How neighborly of you. Maybe you're right in your comments, but you sure could have come up with a helpful way to say it. As is, you just come off as looking down your nose at a someone new. All of us get help when we are beginners at something and we shouldn't forget it later when we're old hands. Nobody is forcing you to make a post. But if you are going to post, why not try and help someone learn and improve.</p>

<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>

<p>Deedee,</p>

<p>Weddings are tough. People expect everything to go perfectly (which it never does). And oddly enough, in my experience, the people at the lower end of the price scale tend to expect even more than those who have the money to pay a couple grand. And there are ALWAYS going to be nightmare clients. Everyone who has shot more than a few weddings has experienced one and they are never fun. Sometimes all you can do is to walk away.</p>

<p>That having been said, you can't just assume that the "moment" or "intimacy" is going to cut it. You need to know what your clients are looking for, what matters to them. Some people are all about the moment, and some are all about "making things look as completely perfect as possible". It is great that you are proud of your work, but your goal needs to be to make the client proud of your work. What YOU think doesn't really matter when you are being paid for a job. Some of my favorite wedding images ever haven't been given a second glance by clients and some of the most boring and uninspired (to my mind) have ended up making someone cry tears of joy. If you accept a wedding client, it's your job to deliver what THEY want. The time for differences of opinion is before the contract has been signed and the check has been cashed.</p>

<p>Sure, there's just a sliver of the guy's head cut off in the shot above. But when you print a 3:2 image into a <s>4x6</s> 8x10, he's going to lose a lot more. That's the kind of thing that can cause a bride to get upset in a hurry. In her mind, she didn't pay you to be do anything but to capture all of the elaborate show that she probably put hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into creating. Cutting off the top of heads isnt going to count as "all" for some people. It's just "most". And if they didn't hire you for "most", then they are going to be upset. </p>

<p>It sucks and it's hard. But that's part of the reason that people hire a professional. If it were easy, then "Uncle Bob" would just do all the photography and everyone would be happy. But it's not easy. There's a lot to learn as a beginner to wedding photography and you are going to trip up at some point. We all do.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Deedee - </p>

<p>I'm really glad that you agreed to refund the $350.00 to her. It will save you a lot of hassle later on... </p>

<p>When a couple contract you to be their wedding photographer they expect (without having to tell you) no cut off heads, no cut off flowers or trains or whatever, and they expect their photos to reflect their love and the excitement / fantasy of the moment. They also expect that you scout the location prior to the wedding - so you're not surprised by anything - and even if you are surprised - you should be prepared for anything (and don't show surprise or dismay or anything other than calmness to the couple) </p>

<p>"I shoot weddings for a living and this wedding is really hard..." </p>

<p>Why didn't she / he shoot the wedding? Why was it hard? If that ever happened to me - I'd be asking (in private) what am I missing or not doing that I should be? </p>

<p>As for validation - if the shot posted is an example - my 2 cents worth - you're not going to get much here... <br>

The couple look like they are posing for someone in front of them - not you... there is no sense of intimacy or romance. There is no sense of romance created by the harsh direct lighting on them... <br>

Add to it the obvious cutting off his head (see Scott Kelby's book on cutting off heads) - and the flowers...and you're going to have an angry bride. </p>

<p>If I were in your shoes - I'd be glad they didn't call a lawyer and demand more than a refund. </p>

<p>- Not trying to be harsh - just trying to be real. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

[john_deerfield]

<p>I agree with Simon, what do you want for $500? Seriously. I have seen a LOT worse from the $500 crowd. My flash costs almost $500 (heck, a Turbo battery pack can cost more than that!). And personally, I haven't met anyone charging $500 who has even read a single book on lighting. For what it's worth, the shot isn't great. The light isn't good, the framing isn't good. Of course, not all of my shots are great either... but if this was a formal shot, then yes, it isn't good. But when balanced with what you are charging... it is fabulous. If a bride came to me complaining about this shot and she told me she paid $500 for a photographer I would quite literally ask: "what were you expecting?" Of course I would get an earful but my reply would be that it seem the expectations were way out of line. Why do <em>you</em> think one person charges $3000 and another $500. Now to that end, I suppose it also depends on how <em>you, the photographer</em> present yourself. Are you out there telling prospective brides not to waste their money on an expensive photographer, that you can do just as well of a job? Or are you telling them that hey, I have a camera and I want the experience. If it is the former, stop pretending to be a photographer and learn to be a photographer. You will then see that you can't run a photography business charging $500 for a wedding. If it is the later (hey, I want the experience), then I would not have refunded a dime, at that all should have been spelled out in the contract!</p>

[david.wagle]

<p>Ok, I'm not a professional. But, I do know something about customer service and what it means to be a professional in a field. And being a low rent photographer in any genre is not an excuse to not be a good photographer. That image is not a good image. </p>

<p>If I go to McDonald's I won't be happy if the burger is burnt, they forgot the ketchup on the bun and the bun has mold on it. I expect that they have the basics down, and that they will execute their low cost food well.</p>

<p>Exposure and composition are photography 101. Being a new, inexpensive photographer, your customers have every right to expect that you can manage exposure and composition well. If you can't, you have no business offering your services.</p>

<p>Learn from it. Recognize your weaknesses, and learn from them.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>If it is the former, stop pretending to be a photographer and learn to be a photographer. You will then see that you can't run a photography business charging $500 for a wedding.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This was my thought. I wasn't trying to be harsh on the OP. Just thinking: what did the bride expect? If she wanted professional wedding photography, then she could expect to pay at a level where the photographer might have a chance of making a living from photography. If she's paying below that level, she can't expect to be employing a professional, whether good or bad. And if she knows she's not employing a professional, then she can expect at the very best pot luck with the images.</p>

<p>I don't think it's in dispute that it's not a brilliant image.</p>

<p>There's a reasonable chance that the bride's real concern isn't to get the best photography (if it was, she might have considered investing a little bit in it), but to knock the price down as far as possible. And if she can knock it down to zero from her point of view, then all the better.</p>

<p>But it's quite hard for the OP to argue that, because the bride was paying so little she shouldn't expect anything good. Unless the contract clearly stated that the OP was inexperienced and didnt guarantee good results. So the sad thing is that there probably isn't any way round a refund.</p>

[deedee_jones]

Hey all...I think ALL of your comments are fantastic, even the "harsh" ones. I

think this is just what I've been needing because I would like to continue to

pursue this as a profession. In art classes I was always the "bitch" who

delivered te harshest criticism because I demanded a lot out of my

classmates and I hated getting weak critiques that were like "it looks good"...

I think I will be visiting this site a whole lot more often! : }

 

I present myself as someone who has been trying her hand at this for only

the past year and advertise on Craigslist...and charges only $500. I'd only

hope that I still have a lot to learn cause if I knew everything I needed to

know by 26 I'd have nothing to look forward to ya know?

 

The person who said something about making the clients proud and even

though this is such a duh idea, it's revealed a lot to me. The weddings I

assisted on were smaller and more hippie dippie...so I guess that's what I

learned from. Prior to this particular one they had all been small ceremonies.

I forget that there are also big old grand weddings where people do care

about the small things I would overlook.

 

So thanks for the input...if the work is really so dreadful then I don't feel so

bad about the refund. I've learned a lot for $350 and that's cheaper than my

school loans!!!

[joseph_wisniewski]

<blockquote>

<p>But when you print a 3:2 image into a 4x6, he's going to lose a lot more.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hey Josh, I know you were really riled up. I get the same way about some of the old timers who snipe at the newbies here (doesn't help that some of the snipers are "heroes" and one is an admin). But... last I checked, 4x6 was a 3:2.</p>

<p>Budda bing!</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<blockquote>

<p><em>I charged $500 for 8 hours of coverage, plus a separately manned photobooth.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>And I bet that eight hours does not include the time you pent getting the job, oor your travel time and expenses, or your processing time. If you add all of that up you might be surprised at how little per hour you are making. This is one of the ways you learn however, what to charge what you are really worth.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>She is upset about photos like this:</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Without seeing the others, I don't think it is a terrible photo -- you have a nice sense of light and expression -- but you do need to pay attention to the edges of the frame and what is in the background. Also your exposure: If you are shooting JPEGS , stop and learn how to process raw files. It is not that hard and certainly not as hard as some people want to make it seem. </p>

<p>Did she ever indicate that she wanted to capture " the grandness of the room" or "the barn or the house or the whatever at the venue"? Even if she didn't, always figure that they chose the location becausue of what it looked like . They were paying for that too. Take the "I'm dumb" approach next time and ask lots of questions, before during and after the shoot.</p>

<p>Don't give up, don't waste energy on being angry with the client or yourself, learn from your mistakes. </p>

<p> </p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>But... last I checked, 4x6 was a 3:2.

<p>Budda bing!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You are absolutely correct. I had meant to write "8x10".</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Anyone I know, Joseph? I personally find veiled slights on others distasteful.</p>

<p>As far as I'm concerned, judgement should not be made from one photo. In addition, it doesn't matter whether 'we' approve or disapprove of Deedee's images. I personally would not have refunded the fee if the client saw similar photos before hiring you, Deedee. If she did, then I would have stood my ground. As it stands, the client paid $150 for her photos (I assume she kept the files) and probably didn't hate all of them.</p>

<p>As Josh said, you will run into all kinds of clients if you shoot weddings long enough. Some of them will even appear to be 'crazy'--without any logical ground to stand on. Some of these--you just give up and move on, but I would not do so until it was obvious the impasse could not be bridged.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>Sorry if I was too harsh, the thought of taking on all that work and responsibility for $500, and then the bride kicking up a fuss, no doubt clouded my judgement.</p>

 

[clintdunn]

<p>Honestly...this is the problem with wedding photography in the digital age. There are now too many wedding photogs like you that are willing to shoot a wedding for only $500. From the one shot you posted I don't think it looked that bad, but I wouldn't have refunded her one penny. In my opinion, if a bride chooses a $500 wedding photographer..well you get what you pay for. Don't take that as an attack on you the photographer; what I mean is that she is in no position to be that fussy when paying so little for a wedding.</p>

<p>People need to temper their expectations....</p>

[William Michael]

<p>The problem you had (with the image sample) appears largely based in more technical faults: lack of preparedness and little planning.<br>

It appears that the shot was pulled with the EF-S 55 to 250F/4 -5.6 mounted on an EOS 60D.<br>

Shooting specs were: FL = 55mm, F/4 @ 1/320s @ ISO100.</p>

<p>Just an educated guess:<br>

If you were located on the Veranda Area with the B&G and or if you were squashed up against the railing - backwards movement for you to get a wider shot and thus not clipping the G’s Head or the Bouquet would have been awkward; even if you were not in a tight spot you were certainly at the wide end of that telephoto lens and had no more width to engage.</p>

<p>I suspect also that without any more room to move backwards - a little panic might have set in?</p>

<p>The tight spot you were shooting in required a much wider lens to pull those series of Veranda Shots – something like the 17 to 55 kit lens would have been a better choice and that choice would have been better preparedness and planning that sequence.</p>

<p>Also, with that 55 to 250 lens, I would have stopped down to around F/6.3 for better quality and less (internal) flare – that lens is nice, but nicer when used closed down a stop and a bit . . . and the 60D can manage ISO200, easily.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Arrrrrhhh - (I don't want to get pinged for my Typo):<br>

<em>Shooting specs were: FL = 55mm, F/4 @ 1/320s @ ISO100.</em><br>

should read<br>

Shooting specs were: FL = 55mm, F/4 @ <strong>1/350s</strong> @ ISO100.</p>

<p>WW </p>

[mariosforsos]

<p>I think I'm going with the "harsh" critics here - and I'm not even going to stand on this one photo (with all its mistakes). The first sign of unprofessionalism is, without a doubt, seeking this type of commiseration from other professionals, hoping they will have suffered equally and will back you up in, effectively, "dissing" the bride. So, lesson one: NEVER do that! Take criticism from clients standing up, face up to the (notice, I did not say "your") mistakes and use that to get better.</p>

<p>The customer is ALWAYS right, even if they may not, in absolute photographic or preference terms be "correct" - they hired you to realise their visual dream and if you failed it is usually because you failed to communicate with the sufficiently to know what they expect and what type of people they were. That is the reason professionals usually spend time with the couple, discussing their demands, their expectations, getting to know them, explaining any restrictions and caveats to them and slowly and gently shaping their practical and reasonable expectations into something realistic and at the same time beautiful. It's not easy and it takes a lot of practice and experience, but it needs to be done. THAT is why a professional cannot shoot a wedding for $500 and still be in business.</p>

<p>It does not matter whether some "other" bride did not mind having heads sliced off. It doesn't even matter if 90% of the brides do not care if the buquet was chopped to bits. All it matters is that THIS bride hated it and this is something you could have "glimpsed" had you spent enough time talking to her (notice, I'm setting aside the fact that you should NOT be cutting anything off during shooting ANYWAY - cropping into something narrower during post is another thing and a matter of artistic interpretation and one which, if the client does not like, you can re-edit!)</p>

<p>So no, I'm afraid I cannot commiserate here. I'm sorry things ended up like that for you. I'm sorry that you ended up working for nothing. But I'm also sorry for the bride who will forever lament that fact she does not have the wedding photos she dreamed of. This is what happens when you're (a) too cheap to hire a proper photographer and (b) not professional enough to get ahead of ANY problems in the first place.</p>

<p>I would honestly suggest second-shooting for a while with someone with experience, sitting by their side as they talk to clients, watching them select and edit their photos, asking questions, questions, questions. Maybe then you'll be more able to meet customer demands... I wish you all the best.</p>

[deedee_jones]

<p>Marios...your response is one of the best things I have ever read.</p>

<p>You are absolutely 100% correct regarding the customer service aspects and I am one who truly values a good customer service experience and when I have worked those positions (Box office, receptionist, etc), I've always strived to be as sympathetic and compassionate as possible. Knowing how difficult the position can be, I try to be really kind to other folks working it.</p>

<p>So I do feel poorly about the initial post...it is, as you pointed out, not the best customer service. I guess my assistant work wasn't quite enough, but that's why I charge so small a fee, because, as someone pointed out, it barely covers the overhead. I don't think I presented myself as anything more than what I am. I showed examples of my work.</p>

<p>But it's a difficult line to walk...I once was told to at least charge something cause working too much for free will undermine the entire industry...you have to present some confidence and you have to take some chances. Freelancing is a courageous endeavor, and to those of you who have been successful, you ought to be proud of yourselves. I'm in a fairly confused position...I went to film school (So I'm not totally clueless when it comes to light...although lighting for movement is different than for a still), but felt ultimately disappointed, discovered photography in my last year after resisting it for so long, got my hands on a digital camera, and started showing up at local indie venues to shoot bands. In the meantime, I've attempted a bunch of things...marketing, writing, graphic design, etc, but found myself consistently returning to photography. I even applied to law school in an attempt to learn "something useful," but a lot of people whom I had taken photos for seemed dismayed that I would give up the art. So I came back, and bought my 60D. This current obstacle came at the end of a couple of distressing weeks and a particularly bummer season of receiving rejection letters from every school I applied to. I've also been unable to find work for a couple of years, and my debt is only mounting. </p>

<p>I don't want to undermine those of who do make a living with this, and I would like to follow in those footsteps, so when do you finally take that leap and start charging the "living wage" and feel confident in what you know, that you can perform the task? And I certainly don't want to be shooting "Uncle Bob" shots. I do take time to read the manual, look at examples, practice shooting, read books...look, I had resisted photography for so long cause it seemed like a medium too many people take advantage of, it seemed too easy for someone to take a bad photo. I take pride in my work and I want other photographers to feel proud of me, like I am a worthy addition to the art/business.</p>

<p>My confidence feels shaken, but thanks to many of the comments here, I feel determined. Maybe I've spent too long giving up at the first sign of struggle. It's time to get serious. I tried my best, I charged what I felt I am worth, and did everything in my knowledge to get the shots. I have a lot to learn, and thank goodness for it. Because I am human, I do empathize with her...and it feels dreadful to think I might have ruined everything. I think there are some much better shots...the one I posted is not my favorite, so hopefully it's not a total loss. I'm refunding the money and still editing their picks. Any other advice on what I can do?</p>

<p>I'm glad to have this resource now, and access to fellow artists. This has all been quite overwhelming and it sucks to feel so alone in it.</p>

[john_deerfield]

<p>Quite the story. My advice: suck it up. Life isn't fair. Life kinda sucks. Get over it. Bill Gates bought DOS for something like $50,000 and then stole the whole GIU interface will all now enjoy from Apple and is currently one of the richest men in the world. How is that for fair? Better yet, does anyone really care?</p>

<p>Part II of my advice, find a professional photographer with whom you can assist with for a couple of years... or more. Finding the right one can be hard since anyone with a camera can call themselves a professional. But when you find one that knows what they are doing, you will learn a LOT. Depending, you can progress from an assistant to a 2nd shooter. We pay most of our 2nd shooters anywhere between $400 and $750. Which is more profit than you made from this one wedding.</p>

[options]

<p>Hi Deedee,<br>

Ummm one more thing to think about. If a potential client wishes to do some research before hiring you, the first thing they would probably do is google you. If so, the above thread comes up. I'm not sure this is the kind of thing you will want your potential client to see.<br>

I'm just saying..... perhaps a change in user name would help.<br>

I wish you all the best.</p>

[indraneel]

<p>Charge more and deliver -- that is the only way to grow. And you will automatically find yourself burning the midnight oil. Do not perfect yourself in the art of living at poverty level. Raise the stakes to where you have something to lose, and you'll find yourself fighting to get it.</p>

<p>It's really good everyone is harsh here! I wish they would be harsh on me too...</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Indraneel, you suck.</p>

<p>Kidding, I have no idea :)</p>

<p>Deedee, I'm glad you're taking this the way you are. I'm in the same boat you are: 20-something, used to expecting a lot more from myself than I should at my skill level, and not always happy when I fail. Keep it up and you can only improve.</p>

<p>If I can offer you one piece of advice though, it would be to always take a small step back when shooting weddings. When things are happening quickly it's easy to not see the edges of your frames, and as you've noticed people are much more likely to notice something that's ever-so-slightly cut off than a minisclue loss in resolution from being farther away. Plus it gives you a little more leeway should you decide to print at a different size.</p>

[bob_sunley]

<p>Deedee,</p>

<p>One thing to to is "look" at everything in the viewfinder before you push the button. Decades ago when I shot weddings, you had roughly 100-120 frames of film to use. If you "blew" a frame, it cost you. Our studio formals were taken with three frames of 4x5 film, that's it. You didn't want to waste one of them, so you spent the time to make sure the lighting was right, everyone's pose was right, etc. </p>

<p> So you slow down a little and make sure you have the lighting/poses/framing correct the first time. Pretend it costs you a $1 every time you push the button. It does take a while to learn to do this, as digital imaging has no apparent cost, until your client comes back at you for missing things and "ruining" the wedding memories.</p>

<p>All the best in your chosen field,</p>

<p>Bob</p>

[bob_sunley]

<p>One other thing, Look back at all the wedding photo of the week threads, some of them are quite informative on problem solving. Don't forget to look at all the submission threads as well, and scan all the threads where people are asking questions, there are quite a number of highly skilled people who contribute to this forum, and the best thing is the price is right. :)</p>

<p> </p>