Flattening/washing 40-50 year old negatives. (What were they thinking?)

[will_frost]

<p>Is there a category for "What were they thinking?"<br>

Here we have some of my dad's old negatives, and curiously enough, they seem to have been deliberately wound around a purpose-made Kodak box. I wonder why anyone thought that was a good idea?<br>

In any case, the outer layer of film (see image) is dusty, and the stiffness of the curl is impressive. Do you have any suggestions that are specific to this kind of bending? The film edge says, in faint letters:</p>

<p>Kodak Safety Film Kodak Plus X Film</p>

<p>I understand the common advice is to soak the negatives in 68 or 70 degree water with a little photo-flo, and then hang to dry first in a humid environment, then in a dustless, normal-humidity environment. But! Is that the best thing to do? Has anyone here worked with film kinked in this particular way?<br>

Also, if it says "Safety Film" it's on acetate, like modern films, yes?<br>

Will</p>

<p>p.s. I intend on scanning these later, instead of optically printing them, if that makes any difference.</p><div></div>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>Will,</p>

<p>That might not be the best way to store negatives, but it's not the worst, either. My wife brought home from Russia several rolls of film that had been left wound into tight coils secured by rubber bands for a few decades. At least the majority of your frames are flat. We wound our film onto reels and soaked them, as you noted, then hung them to dry with heavy weights, but some were still too curly to scan, so we cut them, sleeved them, and put them in our dry mount press (no heat) for a few months. This did the trick, though they still weren't totally flat. The set film takes is very impressive. </p>

[will_frost]

<p>Jay,<br>

Thanks for the tip - do you think I could get away with a quick soak in a basin, or do you think reels would be best? (I don't own any at the moment, but I keep on intending to get some.)<br>

That's a neat story. I did find one roll, years ago, that had been put inside a metal film can. The curl wasn't too bad, but the outer part had picked up some scratches from being repeatedly wound tight against the inside of the can.</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>You could soak them without the reel, but be very careful not to scratch the film when you're handling it. I'd give it a nice, long soak in a bowl or dish, with some photo flo. I'm sure your eager to scan these treasures! Good luck!</p>

[will_frost]

<p>Thanks Jay!<br>

I'm thinking I'll hit up Craigslist for a tank and reel. Maybe I'll dig through the old threads on here about the 'best' tanks.<br>

Will</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>I wouldn't get it wet with water, as there's too much change of getting dust embedded in the emulsion. Kodak kept a very clean shop when processing film. It would be hard to dry it that clean again.<br>

Use some film cleaner (non-aqueous) to clean the dirty part.<br>

Cut it into strips, put it in negative pages, it will be flat in a year. Even in the current condtion, any scanner with a decent film holder will get it flat enough. So will any enlarger.</p>

[john_a5]

<p>Just a different view, I hate film cleaner as it can leave residue and the rubbing scratch the negs. If they were clean, I would just sleeve them and lay them flat, they will relax with some time. Dirty, I would bath them in tap water first, let them soak for several minutes--room temperature, but not too high (like living in Texas!). Mid 70's is fine. The 68-70 degrees is development temps where you don't want to "change" the temperature quickly because it will cause reticulation. Reasonable room temperature is fine for this.</p>

<p>After the first soak, I would use a distilled water rinse and then a soak in distilled water and a very small amount of photo flo. You don't want tap water minerals depositing on the film. (by the way, once the film has soaked in the first bath and you have saturated your hands, running the film between your fingers to be sure the dust is removed wont hurt the film (barring any skin tabs!).</p>

<p>Then hang it to dry.</p>

<p>If the dirt is surface dirt, use a soft brush-not touched by hands or other oily surfaces--to wipe the dust off and then sleeve it. When you go to scan it, if there are neg strips that need it, clean them, otherwise don't mess with them, just blow and brush them off as best you can.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Coiling up uncut negative strips was fairly common years ago. Many amateur level enlargers were fitted with curled trays on both sides of the negative carrier to hold the long, curled strips. My 1960s era Durst 606 has that type of tray. And when I bought the enlarger several years ago it included several coiled up uncut strips of 35mm and 120 negatives. From the content of the photos (which included some news photos) I was able to date them back to the mid-1960s up to around 1970.</p>

<p>The oldest coiled up rolls of uncut strips I've worked with were from the 1960s and were still pliable and easy to handle 40 years later.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Also, if it says "Safety Film" it's on acetate, like modern films, yes?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Modern film is on a polyester base except when used in movie cameras )as a jam with polyester is more likely to damage the camera's mechanism than damage the film).</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>I don't think any consumer film from Kodak, Fuji, or Ilford are on polyester base. All are cellulose triacetate. Polyester is primarily used for motion picture projection print films.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>Oh, some of the long roll films for "school portrait cameras" are on Estar (Polyester) base. But that's a dying product line... </p>

[will_frost]

<p>John Shriver,<br>

Are all non-aqueous film cleaners pretty much the same? Just poke around on B&H and see what they have? That sounds remarkably simple. I suppose next, I should ask about negative pages :)<br>

John A,<br>

Let me see if I understand this: you want the water temp to be room temp so the emulsion, which softens in water, doesn't crack or buckle on the surface of the backing. Too cold or too hot, and the backing and emulsion would expand (or contract) at different rates, yes? Room temp for me is 64-68, so I'm assuming that would be fine, but no hot showers in the bathroom where I'd hang the negatives out to dry.<br>

Everybody else,<br>

Thanks for all the details, history, and advice. I'll have to think over really carefully what I want to do. Right now I'm debating washing the film and hanging the whole thing to dry, vs. cutting to 6 frame strips and washing them individually, vs. cutting and scanning as is, and interleaving them with clean paper until I get new negative sheets. The last seems the least potentially destructive. (First, do no harm?)<br>

I'll update this thread with scans from the film when I get them done, and I might put a thread in the Classic Cameras forum with the camera and other sample photos if I get ambitious.<br>

Will</p>

 

[david_love2]

<p>I just scanned some wedding photos I took for my nephew 34 years ago. They were in the original sleeves but had significant side to side curl. I put them under some heavy books overnite. They were not flattened by any stretch of the imagination, but my scanner (epson v700) held them flat enough to scan...in fact I was very pleased.</p>

[jaydesi]

<p>Not to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question...is there any way to clean mounted slides? My parents have a ton that unfortunately went through a house fire and they accumulated a lot of debris. Fortunately or not, the fire was decades ago and they've been sitting dirty since. My father is trying to scan them in, and spot removal isn't practical, both because of the level of debris and the number of slides to be cleaned.</p>

[will_frost]

<p>Update - I decided to hang the strip as if I were drying it - hooked a paperclip on the top and another on the bottom, hooked a binder clip to the bottom paper clip, and attached a thin paperback to it. It's only been up since this morning, but the middle of the roll has already straightened.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>That's how I usually dry my negatives - suspended from both ends under light pressure. With 35mm I use paper clips through the sprocket holes and rubber bands to maintain some tension. With 120 I use mosquito type hemostats to clamp onto the narrow rebates. Seemed to help reduce curling with some Euro films.</p>

<p>I also suspend them diagonally to let the water flow downward toward a single edge and drip off the single lowest corner. Helps minimize water spots. Picked up that trick from Roger Hicks, either from a discussion forum or one of his books.</p>

[will_frost]

<p>Update II. It's been over a month, and the amount of flattening from stretching alone is about constant. It's probably good enough to scan, and it no longer wants to spiral up onto itself.<br>

Lex, thanks for the tip on the hemostats. I think I have a pair on the workbench that I use as heat sinks when soldering.<br>

Will</p>