The DELETE Button

[shots worth sharing]

<p>As I think I may have mentioned, one of the reasons I had to send my K-5 to CRIS was that the Delete button fell off (yeah, I know, "<em>What the....!</em>") The QC issue aside, it got me thinking. I mean, functionally, it was a total non-issue for me since I never attempt to cull my photos in-camera. Given the paucity of 'real estate' on a compact body like the K-5 wouldn't it make sense to stuff that functionality into the menu and re-purpose that button location? </p>

[Tony Evans]

<p>Dave,<br>

I would think that the advantage of a delete button is related to being able to delete quickly and conveniently immediately after an unsatisfactory shot. Better than sitting there downloading 100's of unwanteds into the PC. Now, I know you don't have any unsatisfactory shots ........... :).</p>

 

[shots worth sharing]

<p>Well, it's true that I've progressed to the point that only 95% of my shots are crap. It's just that I don't want to try to determine the ones which are potentially salvagable on the basis of the LCD display--I need to see them on the big screen. Besides, it's so much easier to delete in bulk on a computer and downloading is pretty quick & easy. </p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Two words: Customisable buttons. Leica did that with the S2, why can't other brands do it?</p>

<p>a) They think newbies won't know how to handle buttons without labels.<br>

b) They don't care what we want.<br>

c) The technical difficulties are insurmountable.<br>

d) After polling thousands of photographers, it turns out there are only 2 who want customisable buttons: Dave and Miserere.</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>Customizable buttons are OK as long as it doesn't mean fewer buttons. I probably wouldn't customize-away the delete button though. As it is, I think K-5/7 could use another hard button or two. For one thing, still struggling a bit with the modal AF-point selection vs. OK. And Pentax did remove the dedicated bracketing button from K10D/K20D. That button should have been customizeable for those who don't use bracketing much.</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Hmm, I actually do use the delete button. As a person who does allot walking while shooting out and about, I also have to rest allot as my lungs are not exactly in great shape. So while resting I will look through the images on the LCD and delete what I don't like..I will usually delete about 2/3 of them. It is actually nice having fewer images to deal with on the computer. </p>

<p>As for the button falling off, I suppose it is one of those things that can happen to anyone. </p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>That button falling off would be a very unexpected disappointment, even for an entry-level DSLR, let alone one built to the standards of a K-5!! Hopefully, the fix will mean the end of any quality issues for you, Dave.</p>

<p>I agree, Andrew. I like my K20D control layout. I would even miss having the handy on-body SR switch, as I do switch it off when having a very high shutter speed and using a shorter lens. </p>

[jgredline]

<p>Actually, the layout set up on the K20D, could not be better for me. The size of the K20D with grip is the most comfortable camera I own and as such, it is the number one reason why I use it most. Everything about it feels great. I like the wheel on the top, the dual wheels are in a perfect spot and yes, the shake reduction switch was great having quick access to it. </p>

<p>I also noticed that the New D7000 has a very similar layout to the pentax now. It makes it much easier to go from one to the other. </p>

[shots worth sharing]

<p>Yup, I'd find an on-body SR switch much more useful than a delete button.</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>Well I never use the delete button either, at least not on a routine basis, nor do I regularly use the RAW button.</p>

<p>I would say customizable buttons would be nice. Just name it C1, C2. And let us select what it does.</p>

<p>As far as waiting for hundreds of bad images to dowload, it's actually faster than instant reviewing on camera and then deleting. With a fast card reader, fast card, and desire to make a sandwhich or sit on the bowl, almost all time differential of downloading bad images can be negated!</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Dave that sucks and I wonder how this can happen on a WS body?</p>

<p>Mis I know you're being sarcastic and you are correct to a point, most likely the majority of DSLR buyers never even consider customizing buttons on their camera. Other brands do offer customizable buttons, Nikon's D300, D300s, D7000, D700, D90 etc. So it's available and possible to get this if you want it.</p>

<p>I never delete in camera and for me, this could be a customizable button. The amount of time it takes to download photos from a fast card, coupled with the size of cards today, means there's no reason to delete photos. There's too much risk of removing a shot that has something of value. As good as the new screens are, it's tough to see all the fine details in every shot. </p>

<p>The K20D has one of the best button layouts of any DSLR I've used and like the way Pentax designed this model. For example Nikon's placement of the ISO button drives me nuts. With the OK button on the K20D, you could change ISO without taking your eye from the VF. Not so on the Nikon bodies. Same for changing lenses. Pentax got this right decades ago and Nikon is much more awkward.</p>

[john_behrends]

<p>Justin - I hope you make the sandwich first.</p>

[rparmar]

<p>Javier Gutierrez wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Actually, the layout set up on the K20D, could not be better for me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree that the K20D is the best camera ever for feel, interface, etc. If only they had kept the K-7/K-5 the same (but at the smaller size). K20D also has the best latches and doors.</p>

<p>Miserere Mei wrote:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>After polling thousands of photographers, it turns out there are only 2 who want customisable buttons: Dave and Miserere.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No, not just two people: I've been saying this for ages. Soft buttons make so much sense since we are all different and have different priorities. And a soft switch (SR on/off, RAW/JPG etc.). With the big LCD and interactive display you could instantly see what any button does. And 99% of people would set it once and then forget it ever could be changed.</p>

<p>Soft menu too please, like some other cameras. Then we can put all our most needed items in one place.</p>

<p>But back to the topic at hand -- I could not do without the Delete button. When I am shooting I use down-time to cull obviously bad shots. This saves me needless work later. And if I must hand something over quickly, I can more easily find my best 3 shots and convert them in-camera. Then I hand the memory card over to the client and say "take only the JPGs". Job done!</p>

<p>Even though I don't do much paid work this process has already been a distinct advantage to me. Once I was shooting alongside various Canikon pros. They were all impressed at my in-camera workflow and it was my shot that got into the National paper.</p>

<p>Yes, I prefer to edit on the big screen but sometimes there is no time. Those darned newspaper deadlines!</p>

 

[jgredline]

<p>speaking of Jpegs...Nikon can't touch the Jpegs that come out of the Pentax DSLR's..I find myself having to tweak them to make them look like my Pentax Jpegs. I hate wasting time doing that. I know, I know...Shoot ''RAW''...Sorry, but not me. :)</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>BTW, Pentax has already started doing this--on K-5, the 'RAW' button is also labled 'Flex' or 'Fx' (not sure which is on production cameras, I've seen photos with both labels!) which can be configured as one of:</p>

<ul>

<li>one push file format</li>

<li>exposure bracketing</li>

<li>digital preview</li>

<li>electronic level</li>

<li>composition adjust</li>

</ul>

<p>This is basically what I've been wanting, but I say take it a step further--add a few more functions (SR, flash comp, AF-point-selection, etc.).</p>

<p>I am not one who thinks the K10/20D were the epitome of ergonomics. Let's not forget that with K-7 Pentax added dedicated ISO and Live view buttons too. And the 4-way control on K-5/7 also no longer require the extra Fn button press which makes WB, Flash Comp, and drive mode one button press closer than before. I think most of the K-5/7 changes were well thought-out, there are just a few niggling things that seem slightly worse than K10/20D that could make it nearly perfect. Due to the smaller size and layout changes, a few controls are *slightly* harder to use -- mode dial (now with lock), AF point mode, SD slot, and (really nitpicking) the metering mode. And the AF mode (AF.S/AF.C/M) was easier to operate with the thumb on the older camera.</p>

 

[shots worth sharing]

<p>I'm also a fan of the K20D layout and miss the card access door and SR switch when I shoot with the K-5. I like the K-5 menu, though. </p>

<p>I'm not at all surprised to hear from those who actually do use the delete button. It speaks to a much more deliberate shooting style than mine (I was quite serious about needing to delete in bulk) but one I certainly respect--and aspire to to some extent. As for me, if I weren't sending the camera in for sensor replacement, I'd probably have just covered the button socket with duct tape and gone on shooting. ;~)</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>Andrew,</p>

<p>Pentax had "dedicated ISO" since the K10D.</p>

<p>Only, unlike Mis's feelings that labeled buttons are for noobs, I disagree. They are 110% for the satisfaction of reviewers.</p>

<p>Was it really that hard to hold OK+spin a wheel? Afterall isn't pressing the ISO button and spinning the wheel the same thing? And in actuality, I was able to hit the OK button with much more certainty from day 1 than I am with the ISO button which my finger just doesn't like to contort too. On the other hand, I DO NOT LIKE the single press option menus which end up popping up too often. I shoot RAW so I don't have to fiddle with a lot of those menus. Now they pop up unless I leave the camera in select. The I'd gladly trade the ISO button for a Fn button!</p>

<p>I think the K10D was pretty much perfect ergonomically provided I didn't want custom buttons. Also, the AF button was too small IMO.</p>

<p>However, I understand why the K-7 is reworked the way it is, and for the size camera it is with all the external controls it is definitely an improvement.</p>

<p>There is no way to fit the K10D buttons and door on the K-7/K-5, though I would love the SD card latch back. It was a bit fiddly but it was the most secure door possible on a sealed camera. AND it was redundant.</p>

<p>If your card slot failed (the spring mechanism) the K10D door would securely lock the card in. Meaning the slot was almost fail proof. On the K-7 I am not sure if that will prove true, and I find it opens way too much for a sealed camera! If water gets in the door, no warranty for you!</p>

<p>I've debated loading a 16-32GB card into it and taping the door shut in the mountains. This will eliminate the chance of the door opening but put a lot of eggs in a single basket!</p>

[rparmar]

<p>I'm with Justin and go further to say the Live view button is very annoying, placed where it is on the new cameras. Especially with a smaller body they need to reduce buttons not increase them. For this reason the one decision I am happy with is the removal of the SR latch. Though (to repeat) further soft button functionality would place this back on the tactile interface for those who need it.</p>

<p>Not to say there can't be improvements. This is likely something no-one else cares about, but menu diving for the multiple exposure function on the K20D gets old fast. This should be on the drive menu for sure.</p>

[shots worth sharing]

<blockquote>This is likely something no-one else cares about, but menu diving for the multiple exposure function on the K20D gets old fast. This should be on the drive menu for sure.</blockquote>

<p>Yes!</p>

[mountainvisions]

<blockquote>

<p>There's too much risk of removing a shot that has something of value. As good as the new screens are, it's tough to see all the fine details in every shot.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Another good point. The screen lies. It makes bad shots look OK and good shots look amazing.</p>

<p>And by the time you analyze critical details you are wasting time that could be better spent on a PC.</p>

<p>Also as you noted, provided you COPY to PC rather than MOVE. Your cards are your initial backup. So if you do delete something accidentally it's easy enough to recover. I also find deleting with lightroom particularly easy and safe. Hit the X but nothing is deleted till you purge the catalog. Then take a look at the X'd files by filtering before purging. Less chance of a key file going "poof".</p>

<p>Short of shooting my feet with the camera, or accidentally firing off 10 shots in the bag, or if I'm out on a 10 day trip and reviewing shots anyway in the tent at night, I rarely delete for all the reasons most of us have listed.</p>

<p>Robin,</p>

<p>I actually like the LiveView button, but again, there is no reason we all can't have the buttons we need. I find I use live view and digital or optical preview at different times but often enough having them available at the the same time is useful. With the K20D, it was Live View or digital/optical, but not both without intensive menu diving.<br>

<br /><br />In saying that, I'd be glad to add a Fn button back in it's place and then allow me to customize the delete and RAW buttons. I could dedicate one to FEV comp or bracketing, and one to Live View. And actually that would solve about 66% of my issues with the K-7 layout. The other being the sliding door!</p>

<p> </p>

[jgredline]

<p>I guess it really depends on what your shooting as to delete or not. Personally, I look for composition and that usually tells me if it is gone or not. Detail is not as important to me as it it most. I also try and fill the view finder with what I am after and so the lcd is good enough for me. I agree 100% with this though.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>The screen lies. It makes bad shots look OK and good shots look amazing.</p>

</blockquote>

[rparmar]

<p>To clarify, I realise the screen is inaccurate for fine detail. But if I take three similar shots it is usually enough to tell me which ones are better exposed, framed or even which is sharper. Zooming in and moving from shot to shot to compare crops is a treat on the K20D. (Not so on the K-x.)</p>

[tomadakis]

<p>I avoid deleting as much as I can. There is always the risk of the file system getting mixed up and lose good shots with the bad... Buy more cards...<br>

So, the soft buttons is the best idea...</p>

[bill_oneill]

<p>How about making the view screen a touch screen? Bring back the Fn button, press it and 8 programmable buttons with correct names pop up on your view screen. This would recuce the number of buttons on the camera and give everyone 2-press access to their favorite toggle functions.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Touch screen, no. My reason would simply be that the screen gets messed up enough as it is and with it covered in finger prints, it would be even tougher to see things in sunlight and other conditions.</p>

<p>Put the function back in place and make it so you can customise you favourite or most used features from that button. Creating a custom menu.</p>