New M6 - Serious Proplems

[julien_boudreau]

<p>I have recently posted some questions as to how to test a new M6.It finally arrived 2 hours ago. It's in perfect cosmetic condition. I'm stunned at how good the aesthetics are. Unfortunately, there are so major (?) problems, and I need to decide whether to send it back or not. So far, I've ordered 3 cameras (2 hassys, 1 M6) used, and they've all been returned (M6 pending) because of functional problems.</p>

<p><br /> 1. Vertical alignment; it's just not aligned. I can get things to lign up horizontally, but image is still blurry due to vertical alignment.<br /> 2. "Angular Alignment"; Not sure how to describe this, but bare with me. Looking at an object, say a box, its lines recede into the background. Imagine a single perspective drawing here. In the finder patch, the same lines recede at different angles. Is this normal? Could this be the result of the lens?<br />3. The meter lights show some hallo, or a "double" arrow when my eye is against the viewfinder. I have to back up almost an inch for it tos appear "sharp". There's a red "glow" around it as well.</p>

<p>If these are deal killers, how should I handle this with the ebay seller? Again, got it for a reasonable price, camera is in excellent condition. Should I just swallow the CLA pill? I got it for 1100, and it came with all original packing, strap, and leica case.</p>

<p>Very frustrated as this is the 3rd camera I order and the 3rd that has serious problems. What gives? Even KEH cameras had issues. Are there no honest people out there anymore?</p>

<p>J</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Ok the arrow hallow was just glow in dim light - the arrows are sharp in normal light. This being said, the light meter is off by 6 stops. lol.</p>

<p>Also, just did a test. I set the lens to infinity, and pointed towards something far away - they don't align. It's hard to say if this is a lens issue (loose focus, again...online used order with problem), or the RF.</p>

<p>I keep saying, we need some good "walk-in" used camera stores in Canada. These issues would be evident before any purchase.</p>

<p>J</p>

[notraces]

<p>I'd have the camera CLA'd -- send it to Sherry Krauter -- she'll fix it up perfectly.</p>

<p>http://www.sherrykrauter.com/</p>

<p>Sounds like a simple RF alignment issue -- you could have her do that work only -- but have her look at it -- and give you and estimate of anything else which may need work.<br>

If it were me -- I'd go out and shoot with it -- and see what the negs looked like. I don't know how you've determined the meter is off 6 stops - but run a roll through just for grins. The M6 is one of the finest M's ever - I wouldn't be without mine...</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Yes I want an M6, sold a lot of gear, and saved up for one...</p>

<p>I took my Nikon FM2n, FE2 and D90 outside, along with the M6. The 3 Nikons all indicate the same exposure, and were tested recently to be spot on. The M6 is 5 or 6 stops off - bright sunny day, F2 1/2s. Not even close.<br /> This being said, the item's description was the meter, shutter speeds and RF were accurate.</p>

<p>J</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Just called a few places...with a meter off by so much, it's more likely it needs replacement = $$$.</p>

<p>Is buying online always this problematic?</p>

<p>J</p>

[notraces]

<p>You have a string of bad luck --<br>

I don't the meter needs replacing -- once again, if it were me, I'd send it to Sherry -- or if you're in Canada - David Yau is one of the best -- he's fast, and usually less expensive than Sherry.</p>

<p>David's email address -- David Yau <d.yau@rogers.com></p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>I guess my real question is this;</p>

<p>After purchasing a Leica M6 described as in perfect working order, shutter, meter and rangefinder, should I return it or spend even more money on the camera? Should I not be entitled to a working camera when the camera is described as such, or are Leicas just always in need of tuning?</p>

<p>I have 7 days to return the item. Clearly, it's not working. But it's in beautiful cosmetic condition.</p>

<p>J</p>

[User_5050610]

<p>Julien--I think the camera should work as it was described.<br>

Was it packed well for shipment? It is possible that it took a tumble during shipping.<br>

I have ordered M6s via the mail on occasion and they worked perfectly.<br>

I'd send it back--or at least contact the seller and describe the problems.<br>

Maybe he/she will offer another solution.<br>

But--in the end, it should work as described, and Leicas rarely need tuning.<br>

Good luck!<br>

Paul</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>Just spoke to Mr Yau. He recommends returning it as these issues don't sound like a simple CLA. I have to agree - too many issues here.</p>

<p>It was packed extremely well actually, lots of bubble wrap, foam, large box, etc. Couldn't get much better.</p>

<p>Better luck next time (that's what I said after my two 500 CMs that didn't work!)</p>

<p>J</p>

[notraces]

<p>Glad David could help -- he's very knowledgeable and helpful. </p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Does anyone have a working M6 for sale?</p>

<p>J</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>My reason for hesitation, in terms of returning it, is that I doubt I will find a classic M6 in this good of a condition cosmetically, with all the boxes, for $1100 - they all seem much more expensive, even without the box.</p>

<p>If it only required a CLA, I'd gladly fork it out - but since I only have 7 days to return it, it does not give me enough time to even get an estimate. Again, the need for in person transaction of camera equipment has never been more evident than my past 4 transactions (2 bad hassys, and I mean not even close to working, a Summicron with focus issues and now the M6 with a meter not working at RF out of alignment).</p>

<p>I don't want to order from KEH as they don't test the equipment, and the ratings are based on cosmetics alone it seems.</p>

<p>I'll keep my eyes open...</p>

<p>J</p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>Has the M6 (leica in general) value gone up? It was only 3 years ago that I sold my M6's...they both were sold abit over 1k and under 1.5k....</p>

<p>Anyway, how much did you buy it for? If the condition is mint, I would just get it fixed provided it isn't too much and you're thinking reselling it down the line. If you aren't thinking reselling, the conditioning won't matter so return it and find another user. </p>

<p>It is odd to find such ex cam with so much problem as you stated though...</p>

<p> </p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Leslie,</p>

<p>Odd indeed - but I've had BAD luck with ebay people recently. I'm beginning to think that photo people are a bad lot : )</p>

<p>I'm really torn here - it's the meter issue that's worrying me the most.</p>

<p>J</p>

[john_elder1]

<p>Return the camera. Then call a couple of camera shops that sell both new and used Leicas, authorized dealers. Personally I would call Photo Village in NYC and talk to the owner Rich Pinto and tell him your experience and what you need. I would be suprised if he doesn't have a used M6 in excellent condition. Second choice would be Tamarkin which I have bought from with no problems whatsoever, they are priced a little higher. I have been in Kurland Photo which is next to Leica Gallery in NYC and they had a large inventory of used Leicas last time I was there. Further, if you have a photog friend in NYC familiar with Leicas, have them go shopping for you.</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>John and others,</p>

<p>Thanks. I will most likely return the camera. This is frustrating, but eventually I will get a working M6 (Hassy 500 C/M is another question all together...). I think I'm done with fleabay - people just don't care and sell things without checking them.</p>

<p>What I'm finding odd is this; the meter works, for about 5 minutes, then stops working. I've tried 4 different batteries, same thing happens. Could it just be a loose connection somewhere? When the meter is working, it's off by so many stops - maybe not enough juice is getting to it?</p>

<p>Am I using the correct battery? 3.0V Lithium?</p>

<p>J</p>

[User_5050610]

<p>Julien--from what you describe, I think that particular M6 is a disaster, irrespective of its external condition.<br>

No M6 I have ever owned has displayed ANY of those symptoms--they all worked superbly.<br>

Including 2 from the 'bay.<br>

I think you have a bad example--and should take the seller up on his offer to return.<br>

It doesn't appear that it will get any better by tinkering with it.<br>

Try the RFF froum for a camera--lots of good ones there.<br>

Paul</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>Julien, if the camera hasn't been serviced properly in long time, you can in fact have these kind of issues.</p>

<p>The tip off for me is the "hallo" effect of the LED's at the low light levels, & the "perfect cosmetic condition" you described. These things indicate some lubricant failure that has come from lack of use. That is to say, that the lube has most likely out-gassed into areas that now becomes apparent. The meter issues can also be attributed to the out-gassing to a certain critical contact point.</p>

<p>I'll also hazard a guess that if you were to put the camera on to a sophisticated tester, you'd see that the shutter speeds would be ridiculously out of tolerance.</p>

<p>I would make a serious attempt to acquire an email estimate from a shop for a normal but thorough CLA. This so you can produce it if the seller requests the proof of your claimed repair price. Give your seller the <strong>benefit of the doubt</strong> and ask that they share in the repair costs. If they're honest, they'll make a generous offer towards the repair. (PayPal allows them to "refund" any amount of what you paid back into your account)</p>

<p>BTW, <strong>buyer</strong> protection with Ebay has been elevated to almost ridiculous levels. Even if the ad stated "AS-IS No Returns" PayPal will<strong> force a refund for any reason </strong>up to almost 45 days.</p>

<p>They wish to protect the "fickle" buying public, knowing that <strong>sellers</strong> will seemingly come back to Ebay no matter what is done to them.<br>

After-all, an Attica State Prison inmate once answered the "why did you rob the bank?" question with the response:<strong> "That's where the money is" </strong></p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Gus,</p>

<p>Thanks for your thorough response. It's quite possible that the oils are an issue. In fact, I've noticed that the winder is not as "smooth" as I thought it would be. I can definitely feel metal on metal gears turning (and even a high pitched sound).</p>

<p>The glare of the LED is mostly in dim light. Not sure what that means. The meter only works for about 5 minutes when I put the battery in, then it disappears all together (even when I press the shutter release). Also, when it is working, I had to point it at a bright light, lens wide open (F2), and 1/2s shutter speed to get a proper exposure. I'd say it's easily 5 or 6 stops off.</p>

<p>As for a CLA, that would take care of the oil issues and the RF alignment. This being said, it's the meter I'm more concerned about. I contacted two Leica repair persons, and neither could really give me an estimate. If I'm taking a guess;</p>

<p>CLA: $200<br /> Meter Replacement: ?</p>

<p>I doubt the seller will offer any refund exceeding $200, and even then, I don't have time to have it looked at to see what is REALLY wrong with it, so it would be taking a big risk - so far these have not worked out for me. Are M6 meter failures common? I thought I read somewhere that the early meters had to be replaced in some cameras. Could it be that this was bought, had issues but never used so never had this looked after?</p>

<p>Keeping my spirits up,</p>

<p>J</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>I no longer have my M6. It was working perfectly when I sold it, but at one point in its life I was getting spurious readings from the meter, several stops off (overexposure side). At the time I simply overrode the M6 and took meter readings with a Minolta meter. The problem disappeared after little time but reoccured once again. I think I took the battery out, cleaned it and the contacts and put it back in, but I don't really remember (unfortunately) if it recified things. The spurious readings didn't last long so I don't remember persuing the issue. I wonder if the bad readings were due to some internal malfunction like crossed wires or some other unwanted occurence. However, it is difficult to explain how things could return to normal, but they did. Your problem may have no relation to mine. Could it be possible that the oil vapours have also bothered the circuitry, although I doubt if their condensate is conducting of electricity.</p>

<p>There are few sellers that I trust on the big auction site and I usually need to ask many questions and see pictures (including the serisal number) before agreeing to a purchase there. The same is true for Photo.Net classifieds, but at least we are dealing here with fellow photographers rather than sellers and you may find that most are very honest. Most used Leicas I have seen and handled in camera shops that have used equipment are in a sad state. Camera shows have somewhat better used equipment I think. You could place a WTB ad for an M6. A mint and functional one should be well under $1500, and a lot less if you are lucky. I agree that you should manifest yourself of the ebay buyer protection and probably return the camera if no good deal can be made for its servicing.</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>I gave a detailed breakdown of the common M6 meter issues in a recent Pnet thread:<br>

<a href="00Xrh1">http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00Xrh1</a><br>

Generally a more accurate figure for the C L A is going to be approximately $275</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Thanks Gus and all others who have responded. I really appreciate it. I will sleep over this tonight. I have 6 days left to return it, and the seller is now aware of the problems. Although his add claimed that it was in perfect working order, he revealed to me that his friend, who owns a Leica, thought it was ok, but that since he didn't have a battery, or lens he couldn't check it.</p>

<p>Regards,</p>

<p>J</p>

[fdr]

<p>Julien,<br>

A Krauter overhauled M6 has just been posted at rff, $1250.<br>

Fred</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>Unfortunately, no matter how many times I try to sign up on RFF, and even with my Gmail acount, It won't allow me to contact people, post, or view galleries!</p>

<p>This is terrible, as I would purchase it if he's willing to ship to Canada.</p>

<p>J</p>

[julien_boudreau]

<p>Just packed the M6. Sending it off tomorrow morning.</p>

<p>I'm going to forget this for now. Maybe one day I'll go to a real shop and buy. I can't take any more risks with online ordering, and I've already lost over $300 in shipping fees in the last two months, not to mention duty fees and taxes.</p>

<p>It was fun to at least hold one - I can see the appeal. My summicron will have to stay in its corner for now. I think this is my Nikon FM2n speaking to me, saying; I'm more than worthy enough!</p>

<p>Cheers, and thanks for all the help.</p>

<p>J</p>

<p> </p>