Rocking The Boat

[bill_proud]

<p>Browsing the various photography forums, it seems that every image critique says said image is a winner. A lot of said images I've seen recently, I would send to the circular file but instead I read, "Oh, great work."<br>

A number of years ago when there were flame wars on almost every topic, today, everyone is congenial and respectful, or more what I see as syrupy, sycophantic hyperbole. You say you like my stuff and I'll say I like your stuff. No more can one say that an image is crap.<br>

While some of the flame wars that ocurred were tiresome, at least there was some entertainment value.<br>

Have we grown too nice? This is nauseating. How will one grow if we are lead to believe that our work cannot be improved?<br>

Do you think there should be a section where honest, frank, and even cathartic answers are welcome? <br>

Or are you happy being deceived that the image is great and then wondering why it doesn't sell?</p>

<p> </p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I am afraid that is common behavior: I scratch your back and you scratch mine. There is probably concern about reprisal also. I take those comments with a grain of salt.</p>

[shawngibson]

<p>The real fun begins when you ask for critique and ratings. You get positive feedback and terrible ratings much of the time lol...</p>

<p>Of course you do get some helpful criticism sometimes, which is great, but asking for ratings is like expecting people to say 'you suck!'.</p>

<p>I think you should only be able to rate a photograph if you firstly comment on it...and explain why you rate it as you do, but that's just my opinion...</p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<blockquote>

<p><em>"I think you should only be able to rate a photograph if ..."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>And you have been here long enough to know that no matter how much you flog that dead horse, it ain't gonna happen. :-)</p>

<p>The voluntary ego stoking we have now is bad enough. The last thing we need is to make it mandatory. ;-) :-)</p>

<p>Bill ... if you feel that the "syrupy, sycophantic hyperbole" is rampant here, then you need to spend just a little bit of time browsing on Flickr to gain some perspective. :-)</p>

[shawngibson]

Good point. I never thought of it like that. Ignore my naïveté.

[dan_fromm2]

<p>Bill, take your happy pills and be quiet.</p>

[matt_needham]

<p>Find real people. Look them in the eye, and have a discussion about your or their photographs. Why would you care what an anonymous stranger thinks?</p>

<p> </p>

[shawngibson]

<blockquote>

<p>Find real people. Look them in the eye, and have a discussion about your or their photographs. Why would you care what an anonymous stranger thinks?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think I finally figured out the quote thing, yay!</p>

<p>Best advice ever. I could care less about my "Save for Web" output. It's a reasonable but very stale facimile to my prints, and it's aimed at an anonymous world of internet people.<br>

Yes, nice to show some semblance of what you do, but I always have at least one book with me, of photos. I'm currently making a 13x19 portfolio that has me completely invested, and none of the people on PDN will ever see it, which is to say they will never see my real work. But the girl on the train, my neighbour, people at work, the bartender, they will. It's always been my goal - prints for real people to view, and you can't fake an answer when asked what you think in real life. Even if you lie, your expression says more, something not possible on the net.</p>

<p>On the net, if someone is nice, even constructively, I don't learn much; it's the people who are articulately and kindly negative (if I can say it like that) who offer me a chance to advance. The hard part is swallowing it, sometimes (which is why I said you must comment to rate), and I don't give the ignorant people a moment of my time. I take it from where it comes: Poop-chute, heart, or mind.</p>

<p> </p>

[jim_j2]

<blockquote>

<p>"There is probably concern about reprisal also."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yep, got my first dose of the "concern" today!<br>

And I am totally in agreement with the idea of "you must comment to rate." But "I ain't gonna flog the dead horse!"<br>

I do however feel that these latest changes to the critique and/or rating system have shown some positive improvements. I think more members are getting involved overall!</p>

[seth_.]

<p>If you have to spend a lot of time online, you should remember the old idiom:<br>

"Arguing online is like the special olympics... even if you win, you are still retarded"</p>

<p>Negative criticism is good and if you're not the type that needs your ego stroked as much has others, it's actually really helpful. Most artists I know don't want to hear "Oh, it's lovely", or "Very nice" - they are usually the 'trigger words'. ;)</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>Bill you are quite right and it renders any rate and comment system quite worthless IMO. You just have to look at the distribution of ratings to form a view on how useful they really are. </p>

<p>But on the other hand I imagine that the gallery is a lot busier than the forums, and the photographers whose workspaces receive lots of visits are mostly those with lots of images up here or who contribute large numbers of ratings and comments. So the fact that I think its all a mutually supportive illusion probably doesn't matter all that much. Its making quite a lot of people apparently happy, and that keeps the ad viewers up and the subscriptions coming in. Having been around a few years ago when the future of the site didn't look 100% secure, I'd rather have it as it stands today, just so long as no-one makes me give sycophantic comments or place my work in the gallery.</p>

<p>I also have a little sympathy with those that give off bland comments like "nice work" and so on ( though I have to add that the "wows" and similar don't impress me much). When I'm in the field composing a photograph there often isn't a lot more I can say about my choices than the fact that it looks right like this and wrong like that. I'm a decently educated guy and I'm still not always able to articulate exactly why I did this or that. Its not a sin to like stuff and not be able to write a short essay on why.</p>

[rossb]

<p>I like to look at prints a lot. I make a point of finding some to view every so often. I also subscribe to LensWork and B/W magazine and enjoy the pictures in those publications. I usually just print out a picture and put it on the piano and my family will tell me what they think. I value their judgement. One of my kids is an Artist and she gives me a nod about once a year. That is all the critique I need. I am not going to look at your on-line photos unless you put them in a thread.</p>

[tony_santella]

<p>Im almost sorry I signed up</p>

<p>I was hoping to get some honest opinions and real critiques on the site </p>

<p>im not an artist or an aspiring pro just a guy with a camera looking to take better photos</p>

<p>so far the answers I have gotten in the other forums have been great , after reading this thread im wondring if asking for honest critique is worth while</p>

[shawngibson]

Anthony - You can most certainly get honest, constructive opinions on this site. But the best way to do it is ask

questions in a pertinent discussion forum and post examples relating to the question directly in the thread. If you ask

for honest commentary there, you will get it.

[tony_santella]

<p>Thanks</p>

<p>i realize that while I am new here , I am a web regular on other boards that are more in line with my field</p>

<p>I was being slighlt sarcastic (hard to get it across in print)<br>

My actual point is conversations like this one can tend to turn new people off<br>

I know they are great to blow off a little steam but in the end produce litle of value.<br>

Thanks Tony</p>