jenni_marie Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <p>I just wrote a lengthy post ... hit "post" and it was gone ... {face palm}<br> so a few years ago my bro-in-law sold me his Nikon D40....I feel in love with the box with a hole, and spent my time learning how to use it and offering free photo sessions for anyone who would let me use the photos to learn post processing. I always had people sign a model release as I read a lot of blogs about how you may want to use your photos someday and it is always best to have the model release. I guess that release made people think I was some sort of professional but people started contacting me to take their portraits. I eventually started charging people for my travel and learned more and more about how my camera worked. I got myself a 50mm prime and was shooting in "A" mode. I did a lot of family sessions and people started asking "do you have a studio I can come to?" it was pretty funny to me because it was just a fun hobby of mine. Eventually I built a little in home studio set up and started doing infant to toddler sessions. I gave away 10 sessions in my in home studio when I started it so I could learn how to use my lights and backdrops. A client asked me to do a cake smash for her and I eventually agreed. I really enjoyed that and it has become the main focus of my "business" these days. I took a photography course and had the oldest DSLR in the class but was amazed with all the things my camera could actually do. I switched to shooting in Manual Mode and love it! I was still shooting JPEG at this point. Reading lots online about RAW but it scared me so hadn't tried it yet. I was using Picasa and PSE 11 for post processing which neither is great for RAW.<br> So last summer I met a pregnant couple and took their maternity photos, newborn, and at the 3 month session they told me they had something important to ask...they wanted me to be their wedding photographer. Since I read a lot of blogs and forums I knew this was out of the question. I told them I wasn't the person they wanted! I don't do flash or low light photography and they wouldn't get any great images of their wedding from me. They insisted and insisted so I told them I would think about it. A week after the bride to be contacted me again and I politely told them that if I did it we would have to have a contract spelling out the fact that I am not a wedding photographer and that I can promise them NOTHING! They were happy I agreed to be their photographer. I stopped taking on too many new portrait clients as I needed to focus on everything I had to do to try to prepare to take some terrible photos of their wedding!<br> I bought a new Nikon D7100 and spent three months using it so I was comfortable with it by the time my wedding rolled around.<br> I got myself a monopod, lots of SD cards, a shootproof account, and read and read and read about how no hobbyist should be shooting a Wedding but if you are here are some tips. I made pose lists, gear lists. Tried playing with low light photography. Bought a 24mm 2.8 lens for the church. Looked at thousands of wedding photos online...<br> I found a Wedding Photographer online who was interested in coming along with me as my second shooter and I was her second shooter at one of her weddings. She has 10 or so weddings behind her and I liked her style.<br> Her Wedding was 2 weeks ago and it was a great day. She convinced me to switch to RAW and Lightroom, and I will never go back to JPEG. We were on location from Noon - 10pm and the Bride and Groom are happy with all the photos they have seen so far. The main photographer put together a same day slide show for them with some quick edits of some photos that didn't need too much work. It was a hit at the reception. I have around 100 photos that I would consider using in my portfolio. Yes I have a release from the couple!<br> My bride & groom signed off on their contract which stated that they hired me and I am NOT a wedding photographer, i don't have experience with flash photography or low light locations like churches and reception halls. I suggested they may get 150 photos, 35 days after the wedding from me.<br> My Wedding was this past weekend and I decided to take the "go big or go home" approach by:<br> Attending the Rehearsal - which let me see the Church Prior - got lots of photos then<br> Setting up a photobooth - which allowed me to see the Reception Hall Prior and capture the decor then<br> Going to the Mothers house the morning off to capture the girls getting ready<br> Visiting the Boys getting ready - lots of fun photos there<br> Ceremony - got to the church early as the Pastor had already given me the go ahead to open all the blinds<br> 2 Hours of Bridal Party & Family Photos all outdoors and the weather cooperated.<br> Reception & Dance - super low light<br> All in all it was a 15 hour day with two photographers. We took around 5000 photos. I have many that I love and the Bride & Groom have liked what they have seen so far...I know I got lucky. From the culling I have done so far I am thinking I will have 600 photos for them once I am done.<br> So finally to my questions!<br> I won't be offering my services as a Wedding Photographer anytime soon. However - people have already contacted me to ask me if I am interested in shooting theirs ... ekkk<br> How do I price myself for a job I know I am not experienced enough for? I feel I should simply say no. This wedding I took on, I charged $325 which essentially covered my travel and expenses. I didn't make money. I would never do it for free as there is a lot of money spent on preparing for an event like this from props, to gear to travel.<br> I live in a city of 1 million and it seems the demand here for photographers is higher than the supply. When I arrived to the reception hall they had a wall of all the family photos I have taken of them over the last year on display. People were standing around admiring them. Photos I wouldn't put in my portfolio! I am just a hobbyist...It was a bit overwhelming.<br> How do you explain to non-photographers that you can’t do what they are asking! I have run in to this many times with other types of sessions, but I always just warn them that it may not work out and we can try. You can’t really do that with a Wedding.<br> Anyways critics welcome!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <blockquote> <p>How do you explain to non-photographers that you can’t do what they are asking</p> </blockquote> <p><br /> I have someone whose name I give them. Another photographer who can do a great job.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <blockquote> <p>"so a few years ago... "</p> </blockquote> <p>Lost me at that point. What did the rest say? ;)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <p>Funny that pro-shooters insist there is not enough of a market and yet amateurs get dozens of offers asking them to shoot weddings and receptions :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <p>Photographing weddings is a great experience. I've done a few as gifts for family and friends. It taught me that I never want to be a professional wedding photographer.</p> <p>Nothing went wrong with my experiences. It was fun, if exhausting, and the folks liked my photos. But I realized there's no way to earn a living in that business charging less than $2,000 minimum. The digital editing process is far more time consuming that ye olden days of handing film over to a pro lab for processing, proofs and prints. The only way I'd do it again is with a camera that consistently delivers great JPEGs out of the box with little or no editing. Hand 'em the media card afterward, wish 'em well and say buh-bye.</p> <p>Or maybe I'd offer wet plate collodion wedding photography at $10,000 a session. Just give me a parking spot for my covered wagon.</p> <p>Better yet, pass around P&S cameras to every kid in the crowd. Let them do all the photos. Kids often take great photos at events. They have a unique perspective on things.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <p>Some photographers rely on the approval of others to determine their destiny while others blaze their own path and damn and rest. </p> <p>From a Beverly Hills restaurant hostess to a 6-figure wedding photographer in a few years:<br> <a href="http://www.christinechangphotoblog.com/2014/06/get-rid-of-your-safety-net/">http://www.christinechangphotoblog.com/2014/06/get-rid-of-your-safety-net/</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katrin_d. Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 <p>Then don't do it. I get plenty of offers to do my couples' family sessions, maternity sessions etc. because they loved me as their wedding photographer. However, knowing that I don't want to do anything but weddings, I politely decline and refer them to another photographer. It really is that simple if you want it to be that simple. Life is easy that way. Mean what you say and that' it.<br> Which also answer this questions "How do I price myself for a job I know I am not experienced enough for?" - you don't.<br> Unless you're looking for a cheering squad that's going to say "you go girl, you can do this".</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Ian Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <blockquote> <p>How do you explain to non-photographers that you can’t do what they are asking! I have run in to this many times with other types of sessions, but I always just warn them that it may not work out and we can try. You can’t really do that with a Wedding.</p> </blockquote> <p> While you certainly CAN do this at a wedding, you have to prioritize your time, and everything else gets done before you spend 30min experimenting. Once you've captured everything that is 'required' (to such a degree that more would be silly), then go on to play a bit. Even at large weddings, in 'all day' shoots I inevitably end up with hours that nothing is going on, and I have the opportunity to explore photographically - from this time often some of my best work is generated, but never RELY on that happening.<br> <br> However, the short answer to your question is simply 'No. I will not shoot your wedding' (NOT 'No, I can't because such and such, and bladdy blah.") I have told this to potential clients before. My capability is not in question, and I make the choice that certain people do not need me to shoot their wedding. While inevitably, as soon as you say no, the wheedling will start, You can simply say: 'The answer is no. I have shot wedding(s) before, and decided not to shoot them anymore at this time. I can recommend XXX, YYY, or ZZZ, however I will not be shooting any weddings in the near future.' If they continue, you can simply respond with 'No means No.' At which point the conversation will likely become adversarial.</p> <p>While you may have difficulty asserting yourself in adversarial situations, think of it like this, by continuing to insist, they are being disrespectful to you (in the same way a man who continues to make advances after being rebuffed is disrespecting that woman (or other man)). You have made YOUR choice clear and unambiguous. Yet they feel you should take their interests above yours - and serve them. Are you going to allow yourself to be subservient to their arrogance?</p> <p>All that said, there is an easier way. Simply quote a ridiculous price. So, after saying 'No', if they insist, you can wiffle waffle a bit, and say 'Well, alright, let me see here. ...' do some blatant mental math '(murmuring)...carry the 3... add in the... hmmm...OK.' ... 'Now, you understand that these other guys I've recommended will be cheaper, though they are not...me'... ' alright, so for your wedding, the starting rate is $5500. $600 for each hour beyond the ceremony... let's see, shooting rate applies to all travel time, and onsite time... ...post processing is discounted to $300 per hour, which will need to be paid before final delivery... ...and, I'll need to purchase some additional equipment for this, so you will be billed for that (new D800) as well... These are all non-negotiable - adding an album, or a photo release would be an additional... '<br> Many people in this country seem to feel that if they throw a bit of money at you, you should fawn and slaver while you lick their feet. And it is hard not too, especially if you've been trying to be friendly and 'reasonable' (or you are starving for work). ...That said, if they don't balk at your ridiculous price, shoot it, and take the next 6mo off or buy a new car. If they do, tell them to call somebody else.</p> <p>However, the subtext of your post seems contradictory to the specific question. Your tone seems to indicate that you'd like to find a way to get paid for and shoot weddings, but not take the risk that shooting weddings implies. Obviously neither solution will work for that (unless your clients are really rich). The method to actually move forward is simple. You need to determine a sustainable, profitable business model, accurately account for ALL the REAL costs, and determine how much income that demands to give you what you need incomewise. Generally, the more weddings you shoot, the lower the average cost, but not always.<br> So heres an example (completely hypothetical - and simplified):<br> Costs:<br> Pay (how much you take home: ie. how much goes into your personal bank account -totally up to you how much - though you should probably start with what you need and add to that)/yr: $40,000<br> Equipment (initial capital investment): ~$12k (low, but it determines what the total value is, as well as how much you need to put out for maintenance/replacement equipment)<br> Maintenance/replacement fund: ~$4k/yr (All professional equipment wears out. I like to plan on being able to replace your EVERYTHING once every 3yrs hence: 10k/3=4k/yr -typically that covers all your maintenance as well)<br> Software&Online hosting: ~$750/yr (CC is now $10/mo for photogs, but should also include your web hosting, site, proofing, and purchasing backend)<br> Insurance: ~1k/yr? (depends totally on region, equipment totals, what liability coverage you choose, etc. etc.)<br> Advertising/marketing (bridal shows, etc): ~3k/yr?<br> Vehicle/transportation: ? (can't rely on public transportation, and can't (usually) bill the client for local work, even though it still costs you money)</p> <p>There are more of course, but those are the most important.<br> Soooo... a+b+c+d = ~$60k 1st year, $50k each additional year.<br> Now determine how many weddings you PLAN (reasonably) to shoot a year. I don't do more than 20 (after which I send people away), some people try to do it every weekend, so maybe they can do ~50, some MACHINES try to do 2 or more a weekend... so figure ~75-100.<br> Now, you can determine a minimum you can charge. If 20, 50k/20 = 2.5k, 50? 50k/50 = 1k, 75-100? $750-$500<br> And there you go, that's how much you charge! Now there are several plausible things that affect these lines (such as: the 75/yr guys equipment wears faster than the 20/yr guy, so should cover that), but you get the (simple) idea I hope. --Also keep in mind that if you only charge $1k - you must shoot EVERY weekend to break even.</p> <p>Oh, and don't forget taxes (if applicable).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenni_marie Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>Thanks for all the replies...except for that spam one -<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=423056">Michael Chang</a>-</p> <p>-<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=3835189">Marcus</a> - Thanks ... yes this is kind of what I feel like... I couldn't do it for less than $1500 but I know there are other photographers with lots of great experience in my city doing it for less...so I am not comfortable with anyone hiring me for that reason. Which brings me to the advice of -Jeff - yes I need to find someone I can refer people too... that is a great idea. I am not super close to the Wedding Photography Community here so I am never comfortable recommending someone I don't know. But I will try to figure out a way to provide clients other options.<br> -Nish- I certainly didn't get dozens of requests! However I have friends of the Bride who want to hire me now... I live in a Northern Canadian City that literally has three months of Wedding Weather...so there are not many Professional Wedding Only Photographers here...not to say no one is having Winter Weddings...but this certainly isn't a city that you can be a Wedding Photographer full time... Here is the thing...people want a deal...and if you hire a professional you are paying the most money for the best product but if you get a middle of the road photographer you will likely still like your photos and pay less...also when you hire someone less known they are more likely to throw in some extras and make a good impression because they are trying to get their name out there....that is my opinion of why Professionals may find it hard to secure clients... Non-Photographers don't notice all the things that make Professional Photos more expensive than Novice photos...this is a reality...we see it..."Noise" "DOF" "White Balance" "Distortion"....honestly 70% of people don't know what any of that even is. I always get my non-photographer boyfriend to look through my photos prior to sending them to my clients. It amazes me what he sees compared to what I see. Ok I am rambling now!<br> <br />-Lex- "The only way I'd do it again is with a camera that consistently delivers great JPEGs out of the box with little or no editing. Hand 'em the media card afterward, wish 'em well and say buh-bye." I love this ha ha... I have had people ask me to do that...but I can't because I do ALOT of post processing - which many people just assume is how the photos come out of my camera. So they would look at the photos on their card and be totally ticked!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwtphoto Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>5000 shots for one wedding? that is a huge job for post processing. Sometimes I think it would be better to shot as if we were still using film. Could you imagine using over 200 rolls of film?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenni_marie Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>I am only processing the 400 best images... it is alot to look through though!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johne37179 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>I shot one wedding many years ago for a book done by National Geographic. That was enough for me. How much to charge? There is not enough money on the planet! I must admit that some of the most creative and beautiful images I have seen have been done by wedding photographers. In my experience you should not get paid for your photography but for putting up with all the hassles that go with it. Give me a nice combat assignment any time -- get someone else to do the weddings!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_photog Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>15 hour and 5000 shots are a bit much. I would say an average mainstream wedding would entail about 8 hours. Outside of that your return diminishes substantially. I structure my business as 8 hour day, took about 1200 shots and give them 300-400 pics. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_k. Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <blockquote> <p>I bought a new Nikon D7100</p> </blockquote> <p>and</p> <blockquote> <p>This wedding I took on, I charged $325</p> </blockquote> <p>You paid your own money and donated your time to photograph this couple's wedding. Are there couples in your area that are ready to pay you $2000 for same work you just did? Can you find 30 such couples a year? If yes - you have a business, if not have another bread-winning job and keep shooting $325 weddings.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenni_marie Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>E.J. - I agree - it is a pretty wild experience....there wasn't a dull moment. I got home at 2 am and realized I hadn't gone to the bathroom once!</p> <p>Green Photog - It was my choice to go for that amount of time. My thought process was simply that if afterwards I thought I might considering getting into Weddings I wanted to know what every aspect of the day could be like. I wouldn't offer that amount of coverage again of course. Also the 5000 images includes all of my second shooters files as well. </p> <p>Thomas. K. - I was much overdue for a serious upgrade in my camera body...so yes the Wedding helped me bite the bullet...but It was a personal investment for myself...not for them. I could easily find 50 couples who would hire me for $350....however I do have a "real" job so I am not slightly interested in promoting myself as a Wedding Photographer. I would never do it again for less than $800 for 8 hours.....I did it for $350 for a few simple reasons - it kept with the expectation that I was setting that I had no experience covering such a large varied event and I felt it would cover my costs. Which it did both. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Just follow your instincts and move accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 <p>If you have a full time job and all you expect is to break even with your part time wedding photography (where the weddings pay for new cameras, lenses, flashes, etc.) I'd say go for it. It's the best way for you to extend your hobby, specially an expensive hobby like this. And who knows, maybe you'll gain enough skill and experience that one day you may actually be able to go full time with it. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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