Intuition and photography

jtk · November 10, 2010

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jtk · November 10, 2010

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(demonstration of "capture" existing before DSLRs)

luis_g · November 10, 2010

<q>Knowledge has three degrees-opinion, science, illumination. The means or instrument of the first is sense; of the second, dialectic; of the third, intuition.</q>

-- Plotinus

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Intuition is when you guess correctly that the soccer mom in the giant SUV to your left was about to come into your lane. But that's not all it is. Nor is it necessary to be in contact with Eastern culture of any kind to have the experience. I think we are all born with the potential for the modality.

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<q>The highest endeavor of the mind, and the highest virtue, is to understand things by intuition.</q>

-- Baruch Spinoza

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Julie - "The twist is that in photography, the realization of evidence and the intuition from that evidence to a target are almost simultaneous." And...Fred's "Instantaneous action, the moment, and intuition . . ."

While many experience and practice intuition during fast-paced activities, it's a mistake to think it limited to that type of activity. It is not.

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Arthur - "But I am not convinced that this is not a nice little anti-occidentophilosophical land mine planted by friend Anders, while he is happily away interacting with the oriental mind."

Wow.

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<q>The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why.</q>

-- Einstein

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Arthur - "...does it really need to be either-or?"

At a given moment, yes, although for many who can barely experience it, it is rapidly blinking in and out of existence, and may give the impression of being concurrent. The two are basic human modalities with distinct and separate neurological routing. I would put it this way: They leapfrog one another.

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<q>Every extension of knowledge arises from making the conscious the unconscious.</q>

F. Nietzsche

__________________

My position on this is Kantian. Although I believe these faculties to be related (as I have already explained in earlier posts), I think they operate one at a time, both are part and parcel of what it means to be fully human. They complement each other.

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jtk · November 10, 2010

If "knowledge" was the goal, as opposed to photographs, philosophers would have won the day a long time ago.

But photographs, like ceramics, dance, song, baskets, paintings et al are not mere words or mere knowledge, nor are written artworks (novels, poems et al).

Knowledge is a concept that refers to nothing in particular...

There's more to life than data, and there's less to "knowledge" than philosophers imagine, since they are limited to words.

The beauty of photography has partially to do with its ability to pose questions without pretending to be answers, or its ability to demonstrate the difference between ideas and images.

aplumpton · November 10, 2010

Hey guys, please give me a break; I can be a little funny, too. My quip to Anders was just to pull his leg about essence and Chinese philosophy.

Anders, I mostly agree with what you say, especially in regard to cross-fertilisation. And I do practice it. Not sure why you thought I don't. Perhaps many engineers have a rather deserved reputation as single-minded dullards.

Light reading (in defence of...): Cross-fertilisation has been a key part of my career and lifestyle, from my premiere "Crosstalk" radio program at SUNY Buffalo (where my specific 10 month post-d was boring the H out of me), later acquired for diffusion by an inter-university radio service ("Crosstalk" series featured amongst others, composer Lejaren Hiller and an electrical engineer discussing electronic music - a mechanical engineer, materials scientist and medical surgeon discussing prosthetic limb replacements - a Nobel prize winner in literature (a Brit, forget his name, but an impressive person) at SUNY discussing the future of the book with a nascent computer specialist - an architect discussing building with a sociology prof,....), followed by a work offer from the CBC on the basis of it (stupidly rejected), my work at a multidisciplinary engineering research centre (where I led projects in industry economics, extractive metallurgy (my initial field), food science and engineering (texturised protein, bakery equipment design, clarifying fruit juices, cheese product physical transformations), design of tree-seedling high throughput equipment for reforestation, processes to treat various industrial wastes, design of a wooden automobile, thermography, acoustics (ah, photography...) and so on. I delighted in putting together multidisciplinary projects and teams, and perhaps because I am not a blue ribbon researcher I was given the task of coordinating the teams (lots of fun) and attaining the objectives ("deliverables"). Great learning curves. As was running conferences for a number of scientific/engineering societies in Canada and US (dog work and occasional accolades for mot losing money). I now analyse 70 t0 80 research reports each year, synthesize global reports which extract the risky components of the work and deal with the various fields of interest going into those reports. Mostly for the fun of interacting with younger professionals and workers.

Boring stuff, I admit, but at least with a hint of cross-fertilisation which likely does influence our knowledge base and intuitive capability. Little Spinoza and Kant, unfortunately, but that is still to be developed and why I am here, in part, talking occasionally with those who have much more philosophical background than mine.

I have to come back to the other recent and erudite posts (I do mean that) when time allows. Now I just have to erase from my head the sounds of the Chostakovich first symphony (beautifully played tonight by our OSQ ("QSO")), not my choice of favourite music, to be able to remember the sublime Mahler "Kindertotenlieder" (with Susan Platts, mezzo) that preceded it following the concert intermission. A silly pairing. Hardly intuition of the highest level, although my admiration for the conductor is undiluted by that.

AJHingel · November 11, 2010

John with all respect and good wishes, you are way off the subject apart from when you make reference to Picasso that like so many other Parisian artist had their regular visits at the Musee de l'Homme. During the period 1907-1909 Picasso was in fact heavily influenced by African ceremonial masks, which can be seen i<a href="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2373079043_857a519968.jpg">n many of his paintings</a>. He owned quite a collection too. However, I don't understand what that has to do with the importance of understanding "intuition" and the Chinese tradition.

I would invite you, if you have the courage, to go back to the earlier post above of Luis with quotes from artists that declare their attachment to "intuition" in their own work: Picasso is among them as far as I remember. I agree with those that would always announce that quotes are taking out of their context, but it s sometimes a good starter and sometimes an eye-opener.

AJHingel · November 11, 2010

Arthur, I can recognize much of what you write in my own working experiences animating multicultural teams. The central words of what you write is when you refer to the 'Great learning curve'. Everyone that have worked in such context recognize the enormous creative force and the very intensive challenges of any certainties we might have as concerns ways of finding solutions, or defining problems. Such dynamics are surely also in play when it comes to confronting our Western intellectual learning and certainties with Asian philosophy. At least that is what I have experienced and I hope some bits and pieces of such reflection have found their way into this thread and are perceived of relevance for photography, by some.

Julie H · November 11, 2010

The fact that we, as a species, have a natural ability to make up our minds, to feel "certain" that we know what to do even though we don't have perfect or conclusive evidence to support that decision does not mean that that "certainty" is therefore "true" just because we have it. We have that ability to decide, to feel certain -- we need that ability -- because waiting is not an option in many (most) of life's endeavors (and because "perfect evidence" never happens). Often waiting even a second is not an option. Even if you can wait an eternity you still need this ability; see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass">Buridan's Ass</a> for what happens without such an arbitraty decision-making ability.

The fact our decisions, or beliefs in the rightness of our actions, in our certainty is frequently wrong or partially wrong always seems to be overlooked or forgotten or edited out in post facto discussions. I am entirely in favor of taking risks, of "following one's intuitions," of enjoying the unexpected, but I also try to remember that that is exactly what I am doing; I am aware to what extent the consequences of my intuitional actions are purely fortuitous (an openness to other possiblities and an ability to improvise) and I don't credit this to some special other-then-intellectual "knowing" of my own.

AJHingel · November 11, 2010

Julie one of the tricky aspects to the discussion intuition is that it is mainly related to what happens in your head and body in general and not directly related to an act of taking decisions or doing things in life. Where we approach the act is mainly through creative processes such as art work. I might make intuitive purchases from time to time, but this is just the stupidity of the intellect taking a rest.

Surely the intellect does not know it "all". If it was the case, the argument of the difference between intuitive and intellectual "seeing" would fall the the ground. No, one of the qualities of "knowing" is surely also to get a profound understanding of the limits of your knowing. One could say, without seeking to be provocative, God forbid it! that those with a profound knowledge of the limits of their knowledge would be ready for not only acknowledging the importance of intuition in arts but also pursue it together with the capabilities of the intellect, as a support for seeing and targeting frames for photography in reality.

Julie H · November 11, 2010

Anders, you seem to (always or at least frequently) equate "knowing" with the intellect. I wish it were so ... but perfect knowledge in the sense of perfect understanding does not happen, not least because nothing has ever or will ever stand still. What I don't agree with is where intuition is implied to be somehow true beyond what we have any prior sensation of. I think that intuition is a good guess, a good guess that we have to make, that we make all the time and everywhere in varying degrees of importance to our need/survival.

Experienced gamblers, those who win more than they lose, internalize the odds. Experienced sages internalize patterns. Both gamblers and sages surround the "intutions" that those internalized odds and patterns cause them to believe, with "intellectual" scanning of the input prior to "intuition" and "intellectual" validation of that "intuition" on output (does it turn out to be good or bad or true or false or useful or not?) This dance of intellect/intuition is happening all the time and at any/all speeds -- as needed.

Before you (or someone else that I can hear breathing loudly; snorting is more like it, should we call an ambulance?) get indignant that I am claiming superiority for my way of doing things. This IS my way of doing things. I would suggest that it is the aspiration (never fully achieved) of every creative person to fully internalize the odds, the patterns of existence so that one can, effortlessly, make the best choices.

Julie H · November 11, 2010

... and, Fred, I'm not claiming that "every creative person" stops there. He/she can and will and does THEN go on to do as his heart/intellect/gonads desires. For example, one might make a green pepper out of a Fuji apple.

luis_g · November 11, 2010

Arthur - " I can be a little funny, too. My quip to Anders was just to pull his leg about essence and Chinese philosophy."

I know. It was a shock to see Arthur humor!

AJHingel · November 11, 2010

Julie, if my intellect tells me that society is nothing else than class struggle and I go out in society to shoot photos of it and I see nothing else going on - I surely see only parts of reality. If, as you write, my understanding of society is totally interiorized and I go out with my backbone and only one part of my brain and shoot photos of society, I still only have the same photos. Intuition, according to the Leach way of describing it supported by the mentioned writings of Asian philosophers would immediately remark that in one or the other situation the intellect is in charge. The world is only seen in part (understandable and categorized dimensions). Seeing reality by intuition is letting the intellect go and achieve a more "original" view of reality around us.

NO, no, no I did not recommend that and don't think it is achievable in photography, but a symbiosis of intuition (se described) and intellect is to a large degree. I would expect that what we see when we fall on something that is strikingly new, novel and never seen before. Such photos exist? Some are just by chance, others I would think are (also) because of a more free, original way of seeing, seeking and pointing out a scene. Again, I would expect that intuition in the described sense has been in play.

Maybe natur photography is easier to imagine could be photographed in the way described, because most of our intellects are categorizing social beings and societies more than nature. In nature, our intellect would accept to be put aside - for a few moments. In Chines philosophy most seeing is exemplified by "seeing" landscapes, just like their paintings, or rocks like in Zen stone gardens.

jtk · November 11, 2010

Anders, I hope you didn't mean to suggest that "courage" is a criterion for reading Luis's many non-photo posts. My reason for skimming past his posts boils down to their irrelevance. They are not relevant to his own photography because he doesn't seem to have any. They are not relevant to scholarly discussion because they are not properly cited for Internet use (no links). They are mostly off-topic in that they rarely refer to photography. This is, after all, a PHOTO Forum before it is an "art" forum or "philosophy" forum.

As I noted, I'm well aware of Picasso's interest in African art.

The mistaken notion that Asian art is somehow more "intuitive" than that of other cultures is surprising to see perpetuated here. I mentioned Picasso as a demonstration of intuition in the West. There are many examples. That Asian=intuitive association demonstrates lack of exposure to Asian art and, for that matter, Asian philosophies (which would have to include Confuscian, Hindu, and Muslim, none of which is primarily related to "intuitive" experience/action.

luis_g · November 11, 2010

[small off-topic excursion]

In his own words...

John Kelly, Nov 11, 2010: ". Anders, I hope you didn't mean to suggest that "courage" is a criterion for reading Luis's many non-photo posts. My reason for skimming past his posts boils down to their irrelevance. They are not relevant to his own photography because he doesn't seem to have any. They are not relevant to scholarly discussion because they are not properly cited for Internet use (no links). They are mostly off-topic in that they rarely refer to photography."

John Kelly, less than two months ago, on Sept 22, 2010: "I need again to apologize to Luis for bitching about lack of online photo evidence and, to my discredit, disrespecting him. Dense, I've come to appreciate that his acumen and evident experience are much more valuable than a few digital patches could ever be."

On the same thread, Sept. 27th 2010: "You may have noticed my apology to Luis G, earlier: I'd been abrasive (and worse) in response to what was, many months ago, a nearly total reliance on scholarly quotations without evidence of his own photography. Like some here (including a moderator), I thought evidence of one's own recent photos would be a good requirement for posting here...and my own current evidence seems lite for that purpose (I've since abandoned that "evidence" (sic) trial ballon). This may be relevant: my attitude about Luis changed for three reasons: 1) I read his many posts, observing that he became progressively more directly (as a person, rather than as a scholar) involved in the various discussions 2) He writes freely, concisely, engages interestingly in ideas, always contributes something pungent and unique. 3) He has a great sense of humor :-)"

Yawn. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming, wherein we get to see if Anders' admirable patience has any limits. What a great fisherman he must be.

luis_g · November 11, 2010

John K. - "The mistaken notion that Asian art is somehow more "intuitive" than that of other cultures is surprising to see perpetuated here. I mentioned Picasso as a demonstration of intuition in the West. There are many examples. That Asian=intuitive association demonstrates lack of exposure to Asian art and, for that matter, Asian philosophies (which would have to include Confuscian, Hindu, and Muslim, none of which is primarily related to "intuitive" experience/action."

To use your own words, "They are not relevant to scholarly discussion because they are not properly cited for Internet use (no links)." The very thing JK accuses me of, he then goes on to merrily do. Smoke rings, nothing more.

As to John's absurd claim that "(sic) Confuscian, Hindu, and Muslim, none of which is primarily related to "intuitive" experience/action."

Nice try.

[From Intuition in Kant and Confucius by Stephen M. Clinton, Ph. D.

"If Confucianism is a virtue ethic then it follows the pattern of duty based on intuition as a practical means of finding and living one’s duty in life. This fits with Audi’s third form of intuitive knowledge based on conceptual grounds."

http://www.toi.edu/Resources/Intuition%20in%20Kant%20and%20Confucius.pdf

From Nature Magazine 27 Sep 2006, Gautam R Desiraju BOOK REVIEWED-An Idealist View of Life by Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan

"However, Eastern systems of philosophy, particularly Hinduism, believe in a higher form of knowledge built on intuition."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7110/full/443398a.html

I suppose you've never heard of Sufist Islam? Nevermind, rhetorical question. I can easily intuit the retorts.

On the types of intuitions and their sources in Islam:

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12778

"It might be asked what other means of knowledge were available to other civilizations before the modern period. The answer is quite clear at least for those Muslims who know the intellectual life of Islam: revelation and intellectual intuition or vision (dhawq, kashf or shuhud)"

and..."The few in the Islamic world who would cut this cord of reliance and declare the independence of reason from both revelation and intuition were never accepted into the mainstream of Islamic thought."

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/reflect-nasr.htm

This is like clubbing baby seals.

jtk · November 11, 2010

Luis, you are relying entirely on Google to find quotations in English that refer to an undefined activity named "intuitive" by your Google pals.

If you knew anything about the "Asian" religions and philosophies you're citing in your quest to "club baby seals," you would know that Islam, Hinduism, and Confuscian approaches/philosophies/religions ALL rely heavily on rules as well as personal responses (which you've chosen to label "intuitive."). If you knew practitioners of those systems you would know that they are at least as delibrative (vs "intuitive") as Christians or Jews.

I don't think you have any interest in photography. If you did you would write about it. Your entire connection seems to be allegations about camera ownership and Googled references to quips by photographers.

You're right, I did apologize for repeatedly commenting on your refusal or inability to share images... as you know, the moderators have discussed that. It seems ridiculous to have someone spamming this Forum with little more than abuse of others ("clubbing baby seals") and poorly documented (virtually no links) quotable alleged quotes.

I hope the moderators will revisit this idea: No admission to this particular Forum without some sort of visual evidence that one attests is relatively recent work.

luis_g · November 11, 2010

John gets the last word. *crush*

aplumpton · November 11, 2010

In their more lucid moments, like all of us, John and Luis provide interesting philosophical comments. I would suggest to them that they resist the need to draw swords but simply debate the points without aggressive personal remarks. Or at least do that off stage (e-mail) to save us the need to engage in battle.

Personally, I couldn't care less if a photographer discussing philosophy has no recent work posted in his personal page (Luis) or rarely if ever presents his pictures on this forum for comment (John). Having posted images for comment has made me realize that it is a bit of a fool's game (although I appreciate that John did provide comment recently and that Luis has critiqued one photo given as an example of "immaterial" some time ago), as sincerity of critique is not a common quality to be found.

I don't know if this makes any sense and I am probably stepping outside of the limits for a non-moderator, but I am simply keen to see the forum stick to issues and to reasons for what is postulated, than (friendly?) insults.

Norma Desmond · November 11, 2010

Kant is difficult, but he's been mentioned and may shed some light.

For Kant, space and time are necessary, intuitive forms of our perceiving. Causality is a necessary form of knowing. Space and time (the grounding forms of our intuition) and causality (the grounding form of our knowledge) pre-structure our experience. In effect, the underlying forms of intuition (space and time) and the underlying form of understanding (causality) allow us access to our experience.

Things as they are "in themselves" are unknowable. For something to become known, it must be experienced, and experience is structured by our minds. These aspects of mind turn "things-in-themselves" into the world of experience. Importantly, for Kant (a major proponent of intuition), we are never passive observers or knowers. We bring space, time, and causality to the table.

Relevant to the present discussion, Kant strongly advocates for restraint, especially through self-examination, that prevents human reason from applying itself beyond the limits of at least possible sensual experience.

It seems to me that when intuition is imbued with the ability to access "wholes" or "essences", intuition has been taken a step or two too far.

AJHingel · November 11, 2010

That Asian=intuitive association demonstrates lack of exposure to Asian art and, for that matter, Asian philosophies (which would have to include Confuscian, Hindu, and Muslim, none of which is primarily related to "intuitive" experience/action.

</blockquote>

John, I think you are seriously mistaken. However, if you believe intuition can be found especially elsewhere t ides not change much what we discuss here. What is the question, at least in my mind, is whether the pair intuition/intellect both play a role in photography and to which degree one, i.e. intuition, is somewhat tuned down in your photography, mine and maybe even in Western photography in general. I believe it is the case and find it worthwhile to discuss how we can reinforce its presence in or photographical seeing and seeking. We might even be able to give examples. Take Julie's, photoseries of wooden branches positioned in all possible angles and positions to each other. Is that functioning because of some intellectual mastering of the variety, or dare I say is it by intuition?

I would by the way be interested in drawing on your knowledge, John, about Picasso and his African mask influence. We know that Picasso makes reference to intuition in the very process of peinting and so did Cezanne. But, what further can be said a intuition in his works and to which degree can it be related to his African influences. i don't see it.

Fred, Kant is interesting in this connection because of his emphasis on bringing space, time and maybe especially causality to the table, as you write. But you also write that he was a major proponent of "intuition". What are the features of a Kantian concept of "intuition" if for example "causality" is always brought "to the table". I don't get it. Could I invite you to explain in a few words.

Just one remark to the small intermezzo between John and Luis, playing a variation of a known theme, One of the benefits of communicating by writing is that the volume is always on a minimum. Writing with capital letters does not produce a deafening noise for the readers so it's bearable, but it is not very beneficial to communication between us as far as I have experienced. Admiration for Luis's gracious gesture of giving the last word to John. This is sportsmanship. Can I suggest that at the next occasions, if such one should occur, it will be for John to make the gesture.

Norma Desmond · November 11, 2010

"Thoughts without content are empty, intuitions without concepts are blind. It is therefore just as necessary to make our concepts sensible, that is to add the object to them in intuition, as to make our intuitions intelligible, that is to bring them under confunctions." --Kant

For Kant, understanding allows us to produce appearances to ourselves based upon cognitions. Without understanding, no object would be thought, thus our intuitions remain blind. In order to make our concepts sensible, thoughts must be linked to the intuition.

The way in which he was a proponent of intuition is that he asserts that sensibility is the mind's ability to receive presentations. Thus without this sensibility (given us through intuition) none of the objects would be given and therefore our thoughts would be empty. In other words, without content our thoughts do not contain an object of intuition, nor are our intuitions illuminated by the understanding.

[i stressed Kant's advocacy of intuition. He was advancing beyond Descartes, who thought you could know WITHOUT your senses. For Descartes, all you needed for knowledge was thought: "I think, therefore I am." Kant, unlike Descartes, recognized the foundational role of intuition and perception and that the senses and sensible experience play a necessary role in knowledge.]

Understanding illuminates intuitions: that sounds a little photographic, so . . .

Think of the world as the intuition and the guy with the camera as the understanding. (I'm always wary of these metaphors because I'm sure holes a mile wide can be driven through them.) Without the camera, you don't get the photo. Without the understanding, you don't get the human experience. Intuition is the necessary beginning of the process just as the world provides the raw materials for the photograph.

When one is claiming to be more or less "intuitive," one is simply understanding differently, one is not eliminating understanding nor is one minimizing it.

The understanding gives us our experience of the senses. (Without the understanding, we would be blind.) It is with our understanding and thoughts that we choose what to make of the intuitions we have. How we manage our understanding determines the experience we have of our intuitions. Objects are presented directly to our intuition. But we don't directly manage our intuitions nor do we directly access them experientially.

The photograph is not the photographed. Human experience is not intuition.

fate_faith_change_chains · November 11, 2010

My intuitions manage me, and I manage my photographs. I photograph intuitively.

dan_south · November 11, 2010

Spontaneity is learned.

</blockquote>

I disagree. Spontaneity is natural reaction to feeling comfortable, secure, and unconcerned with the judgment of others.

We don't have to LEARN to be spontaneous, but we might have to UN-learn some of the limitations that have been heaped upon us. We can learn to disregard the "lessons" of a lifetime of critical comments, however well meaning. John Lennon's aunt told him, "You'll never make any money with that guitar." Luckily, John didn't let her well-meaning comment dissuade him from expressing his genius freely and openly.

dave_reichert1 · November 12, 2010

Fred - "When one is claiming to be more or less "intuitive," one is simply understanding differently, one is not eliminating understanding nor is one minimizing it."

My brain understands how to control my heartbeat, regulate my body temperature, and move my muscles. It's all done effortlessly, behind the scenes, and completely unconsciously. There's no reason for that incredibly complex machine to slow itself down by running all its instuctions by the User Interface; my consciousness.

I submit that this is the essence of intuition. It's an occasion of pre-cognitve, unconscious recogniton; the deep, internal resolution of problems that are being worked out by the brain in the absence of discursive thinking. I experience it most often when I'm seeking a photo opportunity; out driving around, or walking a location. As Anders mentioned much earlier, it's a state that's very familiar to hunters and fishermen.

Don't make the mistake of turning this into an either/or debate. For any given moment, during the course of seeking, shooting, processing a photograph, it's either/or; but the process of making a photograph, when examined as a whole, by necessity includes both intuition and discursive thinking.

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