Large Format 4x5 Begginer Needs Some Direction... Please.

[timlayton]

<p>Hi, I am a photographer, but simply never had any exposure to the view camera large format world and I soon realized how little I know!<br>

<br />I just bid on and won a Calumet 4x5 view camera (model CC-401). After reading the Ansel Adam 1,2,3 books I had to take the plunge! Of course the camera does not come with a lens and based on the seller it uses a standard 4x4 Calumet or Cambo lens board. <br /><br />I have a few questions, some will show my ignorance, so I appreciate your kindness and willingness to help out a newbie. <br /><br />1.) The seller mentioned I should get a copal 0 or 34 mount when I buy my lens. This might as well be in a foreign language. Can you help me understand what I need to look for and get in regards to a lens for the camera? A link or two would be very helpful. <br /><br />2.) I know I will need film holders. But I am not sure exactly what to buy. Can you send me a link to the type of holders and film that I should buy? While I am learning I don’t care about the film specifics. Any ISO 100, etc will be fine while I am learning. Second question about film. It seems logical to me if it is possible to train with some type of instant/polaroid film so that I don’t have to wait a week to learn about my mistakes. Any tips here?<br /><br />3.) Tripod head? I plan to do mostly landscape, architectural and hopefully some closeup work with the view camera. I was thinking a geared head would be good, but want to confirm here. Any tips or ideas on a specific model? <br /><br />4.) Shutter/Cable release? I don’t want to assume any old mechanical shutter release will work. Are the cable releases all the same or they specific for the camera type?<br /><br />5.) Light meter. Any advice on a light meter? My backup plan is to use my DSLR but I am not sure that will really be the best route to go. <br /><br />I have a good loupe and cape on order and if there is anything else you think I need, please let me know.<br /><br />Thank you for helping and I appreciate your time.<br /><br />Tim</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Tim, Congratulations on making the leap. Let me take a crack at it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>1.) The seller mentioned I should get a copal 0 or 34 mount when I buy my lens.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It actually is easier than you think. Normal sizes are 0 (typically the smallest, and for wide angle lenses), 1 (usually normal lenses), and 3 (for bigger tele lenses). I'm not sure why he says 0, unless you have one with bag bellows. It could be that's the one shipped with the camera. You can go to fleabay and buy other size lens boards. You certainly are not limited by what you have. But don't work backwards. Find the lens you want to use, then get the board for it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>2.) I know I will need film holders.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Pretty simple: Go to BH Photo and look for a 4x5" film holder. This is about what they look like. Sinar and Toyos are among the best (but often expensive), and Fidelity, Lisco, and a couple others that come to mind, are pretty standard. Make sure they are in good shape. These hold the film, and if they are cracked, they will have light leaks. See: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/180903-Toyo-4x5-in.-Double-Cut-Film-Holder-Twin-Pack.</p>

<p>LF photography generally requires more light. Go with Tmax 400, and you can't go wrong, but if you want to save some money for now, Go to Freestyle and buy Arista or Adox film. It will take you awhile before you learn the differences, so you may bounce around from film to film until you see what you like. Polaroid isn't made anymore, but Fuji and Impossible Project film is. It is very expensive. What you really need is a good LF book and a light meter. You will make mistakes. You can develop the film in a tray in the dark. See Adams' book on "the Negative".</p>

<blockquote>

<p>3.) Tripod head?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>My normal tripod is a Bogen 3021 with a hex quick release head. It is on the light side, but it's the one I keep in my car, and I leave my Linhof tripod in my studio. Bogen is now call Manfrotto, but the tripod makes shooting easy. The legs have levers you release to extend them (rather than twisting knobs), and the quick release lets me nearly instantly set up the camera. I think the Manfrotto number is like a 055X.</p>

<p>Here's the quick mount plate for the camera: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554495-REG/Manfrotto_030_14_030_14_Hexagonal_Quick_Release.html. It tells you which heads take it. This is the tripod: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554495-REG/Manfrotto_030_14_030_14_Hexagonal_Quick_Release.html. I don't know what the head number is anymore.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>4.) Shutter/Cable release? I don’t want to assume any old mechanical shutter release will work. Are the cable releases all the same or they specific for the camera type?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Just use a good one. I use three: a Nikon, Minolta, and Canon. They are normal releases, but well made. You should get one with the lock to keep the shutter open. If you like LF photography, you should buy the ring that fits around the lens board and lens, and has its own thread so you don't wear out the one on the shutter.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>5.) Light meter. Any advice on a light meter? My backup plan is to use my DSLR but I am not sure that will really be the best route to go.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For now, get an incident meter, preferably a decent Sekonic, like a 328 or even an older model. They all work great and go forever. I've owned many other brands, but they just don't last. I have Sekonic meters that are over 40 years old, and I can still buy batteries and they still work. Later you will want a spot meter (I use a Pentax and a Sekonic), but you'll really only need it if you want to learn and use the zone system.</p>

<p>Have patience, and have fun. There is still not greater joy in photography for me than shooting and processing LF work. BTW, did it come with a lens?</p>

<p> </p>

[keith selmes]

<p>My expertise here is limited, but after a few years of intermittent effort, I seem to be getting sorted out. So here are a few thoughts.</p>

<p>Copal is a brand of shutter.<br>

The lensboard opening sizes are:<br>

Copal O - 34.8 mm.<br>

Copal 1 - 41.8 mm.<br>

Copal 3 - 65.8 mm.</p>

<p>My usual lens on 4x5 is a Heliar 15cm in a Compur shutter, which needs a hole about 40mm, so I suppose Copal 1.<br>

As an example, I believe a Super Angulon 90mm is supposed to fit a size 0 shutter, that is quite a wide angle lens for 4x5.</p>

 

<p >The film I have used most recently are Adox and Shanghai, in ISO 50 and ISO 100. I think of Ilford as a sort of de facto standard to begin with, and its very well documented, but the film I'm using now costs less, and seems to work just as well.</p>

<p >I would not usually use a faster film, but if subjects are likely to move or you need to use a wide aperture, perhaps you need that.</p>

<p >I have tended to longer exposures of more than one second, often 3 or 4 seconds, which is actually useful if you have an old lens without a shutter, as you can simply use the lens cap, old style.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I don't wait for the film to come back from processing. I have only used B&W so far, and have been able to load in a dark bag, and process in daylight tanks. My preferred method now is a Patterson Orbital, slightly modified. If I have made the time available for LF at all, I've probably given myself time for developing as well, so its often same day processing.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >My light meter is usually a Gossen Sixon. They don't use a battery. They can just die for no reason, but they're very cheap on Ebay, cheaper than batteries sometimes.Also a Gossen Lunasix. Another vintage model, this one does need a battery and is more sensitive, it also has a spotmeter attachment.</p>

<p >I normally just use incident metering.</p>

<p >Sunny 16 is pretty good as well.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >My usual tripod is a Benbo, and usually with a heavy Manfrotto 168 head, but the lighter and more basic 115 head is adequate. The 115 doesn't have the QR fitting, and I don't like it so much, but if I want to get away from the car, I'll have to use it more. This is with an MPP micro technical, which weighs a little over 3 KG/6 pounds.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I have to use a magnifying glass (Loupe) to examine the image on the ground glass – my eyesight is not good enough for accurate focus without that.<br>

</p>

[timlayton]

<p>Michael and Keith I wanted to say thank you for your help. Others, please keep it coming. This information you are providing makes all the difference in the world. Things are making sense now...<br>

Keith you mentioned something that really sparked a thought in regards to developing my own black and white film. <br>

You said "I don't wait for the film to come back from processing. I have only used B&W so far, and have been able to load in a dark bag, and process in daylight tanks. My preferred method now is a Patterson Orbital, slightly modified. If I have made the time available for LF at all, I've probably given myself time for developing as well, so its often same day processing."<br>

It has been about 30 years since I even thought about film development so I am clearly out of the loop. Based on your comment about the film you use, I searched on Adox and found a lot of good info. I would like to try some of the Adox black and white film and give it a go for developing it myself. Can you point me in the right direction on the supplies and tools I will need to develop the b/w film? I don't have a dark room so please keep that in mind. If you know of any links to the items that would be very helpful too. <br>

Thank you.</p>

<p>Tim</p>

[dan_fromm2]

<p>Michael Axel, the CC-401 has a 26" rail and fixed bellows. No bag bellows on that camera. A fine camera, but not the best for short lenses. I'm not making this up, I have one in the closet.</p>

<p>Tim, it takes a 4" square board that is not used by Cambo view cameras.</p>

<p>Get a lens in shutter, then get a pre-drilled board whose hole is the right size for the shutter or bet an un-drilled board and have it drilled. Buying a board and then a lens to fit it is very limiting. In four letters, D*U*M*B.</p>

<p>Run, do not walk, to the US LF site http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and read the FAQs. photo.nut has its uses but it isn't strong on LF. And buy a book. Strobel, for example.</p>

<p> </p>

[keith selmes]

<p>I don't think 30 years has made much difference to be honest.<br>

Except the one big thing - the internet allows getting information and mail order materials that much more easily. We even have you-tubes now.</p>

<p>Required:<br>

Changing bag - basically a 2 layer black bag, with zips along one end, and elasticated sleeve entry at the other for your hands.<br>

Patterson orbital processor - there other options like combi plan tanks for example<br>

Developer – I normally use Calbe R05, which is basically rodinal. Keeps a long time on the shelf.<br>

Stop and Fix, any brand you like, I have Ilford at the moment<br>

Thermometer - best get one intended for photography<br>

Timer - anything - digital kitchen timer for example<br>

Measuring jugs - preferably proper darkroom ones<br>

Bottles – e.g. brown glass bottles, plenty of room for discussion about what you need, but someone suggested San Miguel lager bottles, and they seem OK so far. You have to drink the beer first. Metal screw top though, might be a no-no for people who really know their stuff.<br>

I need a calculator as well, dev, stop and fix generally need mixing in a solution with water, odd ratios like 1:9, I'm not good at arithmetic. Some will say use distilled water.</p>

<p>There's an article here although its about 35mm film, but the process is basically the same.<br>

We just don't load onto spirals in a round tank.<br>

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Developing-your-first-black--white-film-4635<br>

Here's a video – about spooled film again but you can see the changing bag etc. <a href="

Recent photo.net discussion about methods for sheet film processing <a href="../film-and-processing-forum/00XGHp">here </a><br>

The site Dan linked to has picture of a combi plan tank. As per the discussion, I've gone off those.</p>

<p>Using an LF camera – shows the film holders <a href="

<br /><br /></p>

<p > </p>

[brucecahn]

<p>You can email me if you have any other questions. I can also direct you to the best price on filmholders & lenses.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<blockquote>

<p>LF photography generally requires more light.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Wrong. Light is light. Film is film. It does not matter beyond the intensity of the light and the sensitivity of the film. X amount of light striking Y speed film results in Z density regardless of camera of format. To get some of the desired characteristics in the final image such as depth of field one has to use smaller apertures with larger format cameras and lens which lets in less light which requires longer exposure times to get the X amount of light striking the film.</p>

<p>There are a number of brands of shutters made over the years and several are still available on the used market. Shutters do not have standardized mount holes. Some use a flange that mount to the front of the lens board while others retainer ring has a short flange edge that goes into the board requiring a larger hole than the shutter threads. As stated before buy the lens you want then buy a pre drilled board or a blank board and have it drilled.</p>

<p>4X4 lens boards are easy to make from either plywood or acrylic.</p>

<p>A Photoflex changing room <a href="http://www.photoflex.com/Pro_Products/Accessories/Photographic_Accessories/ChangingRoom/index.html">http://www.photoflex.com/Pro_Products/Accessories/Photographic_Accessories/ChangingRoom/index.html</a><br>

and Jobo 2500 series tank and reel <a href="http://www.jobo.com/web/System-Tanks-2500.853.0.html">http://www.jobo.com/web/System-Tanks-2500.853.0.html</a> are some of if not the best daylight developing system available.</p>

<p>Fomapan 100 is the only film I have used that did not preform well for me. I have heard of others having similar problems also, loss of shadow detail where Kodak, Ilford, Fuji films would not.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Charles, True, I shouldn't have said more light. When writing my response, it was late at night when there was little to be had. Let me correct that statement and say you may want to use a faster film because a) you may well want to use filters, which will reduce the amount of light striking the film, and b) you will generally cut the amount of light striking the film because you are using a smaller aperture because a particular f-stop, while producing acceptable depth of field in smaller formats, may not give you the sharpness you would expect with LF.</p>

<p>Dan, Fair enough. I don't know that camera line, and didn't look up the details of it.</p>

<p>Tim, One thing that may be helpful to you is to look at the portfolios of those whose advice use, and see if their style is similar to that which you want to achieve. It is particularly useful to learn what films are used, and sometimes what equipment.</p>

<p> </p>

[janne_moren]

As someone who is considering 4x5 now and again, Charles brings up a point I've been wondering about: Why the obsession with very small apertures? I mean, a lens of a given focal length will give the same depth of field no matter what the size of the negative at the back. A wide lens for 4x5 is 90mm and a normal is around 150mm - but I use my 90mm and 165mm lenses for my Pentax 67 at f/5.6 to f/4 now and again, and, very occasionally, even down to f/2.8 if I need to. For urban settings you don't need the entire image to be in focus, and the potential for subject separation is often an advantage. And with camera movements to move the focus plane around I would expect larger depth of field to be even less important with a field camera than with a fixed MF camera, given the same focal length.

 

So am I missing something, or is the preoccupation with large DOF mainly critical for LF landscape photographers, and I've simply managed to only stumble on people writing about LF photography from that particular perspective? Is there any practical considerations as to why I couldn't get a 90mm or 135mm/5.6 lens and use it near wide open?

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>Janne, read this link: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field</a> I think it will help. Also use one of the many on line DOF calculators that will allow you to change formats, focal lengths, and subject distances.</p>

<p>I too have had mis statements corrected by others. I try to state standards accurately and identify my taste or digression from standards as such so as not to confuse the member seeking help. </p>

[kparratt]

<p>What an excellent thread this is, with so much generous input. Top-shelf Photo.net. I am a reasonably new LF newbie myself, so it's been a good read. Good luck with it Tim. I too started with A. Adams' 1,2,3, in fact they were my most read books for a long time. Kodak also produced a good Large Format book, and the Sinar company too - different cameras, but in principle the same in many respects.<br /> Cheers, Kevin</p>

[jasphoto]

<p>Get this book:<br>

http://www.amazon.com/Large-Format-Nature-Photography-Dykinga/dp/0817441573/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1286280080&sr=8-4<br>

Excellent illustrations and photography, with simple and common sense advice on how to get going.<br>

Best,<br>

Jose</p>

[timlayton]

<p>Jose, thanks for the tip. I just ordered it. Looks like a very good book. I am reading the Ansel Adams 1,2,3 books right now and have the "View Camera Technique" by Leslie Stroebel on order as well as "Using the View Camera" by Steve Simmons. This is a whole new world for me and I am really excited about the journey.<br>

Anyone else suggest any "must read" large format books?</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>Tim Layton</p>

 

[kparratt]

<p>Tim, I think the next "must read" for you should be your own book of notes on how you made your first 50 exposures, including both the successful images and the failures, hoping there aren't too many of the latter. Once you really jump in, everything you have read will come to life.</p>

[timlayton]

<p>Kevin, you are exactly right. I have documented my entire journey so far and plan to share my notes and journey via my blog to hopefully help others. Even though I am a photographer with a lot of experience the LF is a whole new world. I had no idea how much I didn't know. I am covering every angel from getting an equipment list together based on your objectives to where to buy the stuff to operating the camera to developing your own b/w film. Still a work in process but the fruits will be good I think. </p>

<p>Tim</p>

 

[john_golden2]

<p>hi tim and good luck on your new journey, when i started a few years back i realized there is a huge learning curve with LF of course others told me that when i was thinking of starting, main thing is dont get discouraged at first if the result isnt what you might have hoped, just keep doing it, the book by steve simmons was a great resource and still is. and i really enjoy the adams books, the "print" is probably my favorite. i started with a calumet c401 and i still have it, great camera with all the movements you need, now i use the shen-hao ptb45 field camera, its a great camera too. trust me you will be so proud when you bring that first 4x5 negative negative out of the fixer and hold it up to a light, the detail is amazing. hope you enjoy it.</p>

[timlayton]

<p>John, thanks for the encouragement. Yes.... it has been and will continue to be a pretty big learning curve, but that is okay and that is how anything worth while usually is. I have some of the Fuji instant film packs on order to help me test my exposure, focus, etc. I try and read in the evenings and then try and apply what I have learned the following day. I am just getting in all the supplies I need for my day lab so I am definitely very excited about getting that first technically perfect 4x5 b/w negative. I have been fine tuning my scanning process to get my film into my digital workflow so I am really looking forward to scanning in some of my future 4x5 images. <br>

Tim</p>

[dan_south]

Regarding question 1 - Lenses are mounted on the camera by means of a lens board. A lens board is a thin, flat, rigid

object that your lens fits into. The assembly of lens and lens board fits into your camera.

 

The lens board has two measurements that you have to consider. The first is the outer dimensions. This is what

determines whether the lens board will fit your camera. There are standard sizes such as the smaller Linhof boards and

the large Sinar boards, but there are other shapes and sizes as well. If you don't have the right size and shape for your

camera, nothing else will matter.

 

The second dimension is the size of the hole in which the lens fits. The are three standard sizes. Copal 0 is the smallest

diameter. Copal 1 is a little bit larger. And Copal 3 is very large. Most 4x5 lenses are Copal 0 or 1 in size. Copal 3

lenses are usually for larger camera sizes like 8x10.

 

So you need a lens board that fits both your camera and your lens.

[dan_south]

Regarding question 2, film holders are sold in standard sizes (4x5), (8x10). Fidelity and Toyo make good ones.

 

Regarding question 3, if you are planning to screw the camera onto the tripod head, a three way pan tilt head might be

useful as long as you don't plan to carry it great distances. Some cameras can be fitted with quick release plates for use

with ball heads with Arca Swiss style quick release clamps. Check with Really Right Stuff for a list of available QR plates

for 4x5. You might check out the Ries heads at their website, but you might need one of their tripods to use one. Badger

Graphic can probably give you good info on this.

 

Regarding question 4, any mechanical shutter release ought to work. You can buy a nice new one from Badger for a very

reasonable price.

 

Regarding question 5, you can get away with using the spot meter in hour DSLR in the early going. You can defer

investing in a handheld meter for a while unless you plan to use a sophisticated flash setup. That would require an

incident meter with flash metering capability. You can buy a handheld meter later if you find your dslr to be lacking in

someway. Make sure that the dslr is set to the same ISO as your film. Use aperture priority mode and make sure that the

aperture is set to your shooting aperture, and the dslr meter should give reasonably good results. Exposure is big topic.

The meter's function is simple. It gives you information. What you do with that info makes all the difference.