B&H, Adorama no shutter counts

[henryp]

<blockquote>

<p>Brett: only Canon can tell the number of shutter actuations on 1D3/1D4 and 1Ds3 cameras so B&H is correct...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

[steve_wagner1]

<p>Henry, for the models that B&H can tell, why don't you post the shutter count for each body on the site. It would be helpful in making purchasing decisions.</p>

[henryp]

<p>Brett:<br>

It's been suggested to me that shutter actuation data is not always reliable. It's also been suggested to me that even if accurate data was assured, like the mileage of a used car it should certainly not be the only, or even the primary, buying parameter.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

[steve_wagner1]

<p>Right now the primary and indeed only parameter we have is the number grade. The more info the better to make informed buying decisions on expensive items. I guess not if the numbers can't be trusted though.</p>

[marc_felber1]

<p>Hey Helen you can run CS4 if you have a copy and will give you the shutter count, if you go to file, then file info, then advanced and I think you look for aux, this should give the shutter count in CS4</p>

[marc_felber1]

<p>Shutter really go bad, it's usually the senor or electonics that go first from experience. </p>

[helen_oster]

<p>Thanks Marc</p>

<p>I've passed the info on to the used department.</p>

[model mayhem gallery]

<p>Exactly, the shutter count doesn't really mean anything. Shutters may never fail, it is not like they have an exact life span. I have 100's of thousand shutter activation's on my 30D way past the expectation and have never had a problem. However, the shutter on my old Digital Rebel broke with the first year of use. 1D series camera's are built like tanks and use very few plastic parts like the consumer grade camera's. If you really want the camera just get it and don't worry so much.</p>

[mcgarity]

<p>Marc<br /> I tried the procedure you described to find the shutter count in CS4. It doesn't seem to work; at least for me it didn't. I could not find "aux" or any reference to shutter count.</p>

[steve_wagner1]

<p>M.P. Shutter count, along with knowledge of the age of the camera, can reasonably be taken as an indication of amount of use, and with it all of the internal maladies that might typically affect a camera.</p>

<p>I think you're confusing shutter count with shutter function. The point of knowing the shutter count is not to theorize on how soon the shutter might break. It's to get a sense of how much the camera has been used and how soon the whole camera might start to have various problems as a result of the amount of use it's seen. If you have a choice between two five year old cameras, both with the same external appearance, and one has 1k clicks and the other 100k, which will you choose? It's very relevant.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Brett; only a few parts per Billion of the cameras sold in the history of photography have an easy to read shutter count.</p>

<p>Most all cameras break due to being dropped; abused; or even lack of usage. Unless used enough per year; many shutters actually will last less</p>

<p>The pickle is you want what often a used dept does not have.</p>

<p>(1) A camera that has only 1000 clicks and 7 years old might have been used a few times; they sat idle for 6 years. The caps might be not formed well since it has seen less usage. The 1000 click camera might have gotten wet and dropped; and it took 3 months to dry out; then it was ok but flakey due to a cracked circuit board.</p>

<p>(2) But a camera that has 70.000 clicks might have been used each week and the caps are in great shape and there is no lube issue</p>

<p>Blake; you would buy the body with only 1000 clicks; and pass over the one that has shot 70,000 ciicks</p>

<p>Clicks are really a very poor indication of how long a shutter will go; it is actually often the ones that see the least usage that have lube problems and electrical boards with caps that leak down more.</p>

<p>A better indication is looking at the body for dents; ie the blind man feel test.</p>

<p>You are focusing one a criteria that can have the opposite slope; lower shots can mean worse problems.</p>

<p>Used has its risks; it might have been on a shelf at a Katrina flooded home and got vapor inside with a tad of salt; a ticking time bomb of corrosion were a tiny trace can jumper over and the camera goes weird.</p>

<p>There are folks who after a camera gets some hard bumps or damp exposure they sell it on Ebay;and that low shutter count is a great suckers draw.</p>

<p>Sitting idle is poor for many things; here I would rather know how many different folks used the camera; or whether it got wet or dropped; they shutter count.</p>

<p>My used Nikon F I got in 1962 has not had a CLA yet; its shutter had wrinkles on it when I bought it used.</p>

<p>Look at radiators; they fail not due to mileage; but the number of hot cold cycles. Same goes with cameras. 10 shooters who put 1000 shots on body might be like one person putting on a million shots. If it is not their camera folks tear it up.</p>

<p>Shots at best is a weak function; number of users that used that one body is far worse</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>A new body at B&H is 6114; used is 4499</p>

<p>Even if you figure a high end 500 bucks for a shutter to be replaced in 2012 and place that 500 bucks in a Ball Jar; the camera + shutter is only 5000; ie you might save 1100 bucks</p>

<p>If used is scary ; then just buy a new one.<br>

You pay more for a warranty; a none used item.</p>

 

[steve_wagner1]

<p>As I said it's not a matter of replacing the shutter. Shutter count is indicative of overall use. In any used item purchasing decision more information is always better.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You are focusing one a criteria that can have the opposite slope; lower shots can mean worse problems.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You go with the information you have to make the best used buying decision possible. Again I would ask, if you have a choice between two five year old cameras, both with the same external appearance, same condition grade, and same price, and one has 1k clicks and the other 100k, which will you choose? Of course the one with 1k, because you know it's seen 1/100th the use. All of the other things you don't know and can't know are irrelevant.</p>

[ncarnick]

<p>Not that it hasn't been mentioned previously but I want the Adorama and B&H folks to know I am impressed that you contributed to this conversation. There are a lot of horrible online shops out there. I have a lot of respect for both of these organizations and have yet to have any problems with either. I know this might look like I work for one of them or am kissing butt for a tiny discount on my next camera purchase but please believe me when I say this is not the case. My only reason for thanking them is to encourage they continue to submit occasional clarifications. Their knowledge is demonstratively better than most and I only wish they were free to post stuff like: "___________ is one of the few lenses from _________ I would not recommend due to the history we have here with returns."</p>

<p>(Now I'll tell you which of these two I like best once one of them gives me the now out-of-date Canon 300 f2.8L IS I.)</p>

[helen_oster]

<p>Hi Norman</p>

<p>I've no intention of not being around to help out wherever & whenever I can, and I'm sure that Henry feels the same way!</p>

<p>In terms of additional technical advice of maybe the kind you are looking for, there is heaps available here: http://www.adorama.com/alc/</p>

[Brad_]

Have to agree with Brett on this; ie having that information is useful for making a purchase decision.

Surprised he's getting so much push-back on that it's not a useful/important indicator.

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Brett;<br /> <br /> Again you are fixated on the shutter count; which is at best a layman's simpleton way of culling out what is ok.</p>

<p>Shutter count is at best a weak function of a camera bodies life. Most die due to being dropped or getting wet. It is the same with cell phones; you dwell on the total minutes a used phone was used; I dwell on reality; droppage; dunking them in water.</p>

<p>Here I have many boxes of dead cameras; many are modern ones totalled out due to dropping; dunking. Few if any have a shutter due to many cycles. Thus you dwell on the rare case failure; ie less than 1 percent and ignore the bulk failure mode.</p>

<p>Here I took the National Camera Repair course series in the 1960's; and worked in repairs then; and have dabbled in camera repair since then. I have about a cubic yard worth of junk cameras of all types.</p>

<p>Your take about shutter clicks is like a laymans look at mileage on a car; you ignore reality. I drove one car for 270K miles without even removing the valve cover; I went through two clutchs and tires and that is it. Then I let it sit and all hell went wrong; gas turned to a mess of goo. I had to pull the tank and replace the tank; fuel pump; injectors 20k miles after 270K. All this due to lack of usage. The same car a friends mom has was run only 43k and its AC compressor is shot; its engine smokes and now has to have its tank pulled. My own car today runs well at 302K miles with no smoke or oil burning; the friends car at 43K now needs an engine and transmission too; it got used little.</p>

<p>In leaf shutters; ones with little usage often require a CLA before one that sees regular exercise; less shots per year often is worse.</p>

<p>In cloth focal plane shutters; ones with little usage often require a CLA before one that sees regular exercise; less shots per year often is worse. The blinds stick to each other and one gets pinholeing.</p>

<p>In electric shutters; ones with little usage often require a CLA before one that sees regular exercise; less shots per year often is worse. A camera that sits for years has its electrolytic caps "forming" ruined. The leakage goes up and it gets wonky. The same goes for radios; some regular usage keeps the capacitors in shape; lack of usage makes them die. The cost to tear down a camera and replace them on moderate cost cameras means you just chuck them; or folks sell their beloved camera body on ebay to a fool. The caps can work then short then work ok. The fool buys the camera and all is well they it dies then works again; ie intermittant; ie flakey.</p>

<p>Your lay assumption is that a camera that has 1k clicks has 1/100 the usage than one with 100k clicks. If might be if the camera was on a copy stand. The 1k camera might too have been used in a torture test with 12 folks using it; the 100k camera by one user with kid gloves.</p>

<p>In actual data on some engineering devices I placed in the field in the 1990's; life in total operations went up with more useage per year; and the less used items died earlier. Ie an inverted slope. Sort of like maybe folks who expercise might live longer than folks who do not.</p>

<p>Thus focusing on clicks is like focusing on the miles a horse has gone. You want the horse that has only walked 1 mile in 2 years; I want the one that has walked 100 miles in 2 years.</p>

<p>*****Here I would buy the Camera that is 5 years old with 100k shots versus one that is 5 years old with 1k shots. The 100k camera has a proven record; its electronics have a less chance of a non formed electrolytic capacitor deep in the bowels of the camera.</p>

<p>The cool thing about clicks it is at best a weak variable but to many it is a massive one. Thus in buying a body ; one gets a better deal. Ie the car with 100k miles is ready for the junkyard.</p>

<p>*****Most cameras and cars die due to being dropped or wrecked. The shutter click is not an indication of the abuse; bumps; water intrusion a body has seen; the usual things that total out a camera body. A better indication is the number of users; a variable that one cannot find out. An item that has had 12 users sees a hell of alot more failures than one that has one user. If the item was a rental unit; its life sees massive abuse.</p>

<p>Thus here I would buy the 5 year old camera with 100k clicks versus 1 k clicks; and get the seller to drop the price since most all believe clicks matter a lot. This creates a massive great deal; you buy the item at a lessor price and get one that lasts about the same;or even longer. The savings would be more than a shutter replacement.</p>

<p>From a value buyers standpoint; you really want some irrationality going on in a transaction. A tiny speck on a lens drops the price radically. More clicks drops a price; but matters little. Insanity; ie dwelling on what does not matter means one can do Warren Buffet purchases; ie a perfect swing if one waits.</p>

<p> </p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Many cameras go years or decades with no repairs. Then the camera is mothballed.</p>

<p>Then a relative gets to use it and if breaks in short order.</p>

<p>Another big failure mode is the camera is lent to another; where the lack of familarity causes the back, doors wind; front clam shell to be forced and thus it breaks. This happens about one thousand times more than a shutter dying due to the number of clicks.</p>

<p>A far better indication than clicks is external looks of a body. A camera that has 50K clicks that was on a copy stand will look great; one that was used by 150 students will look poorer; and have more bumps and water issues.</p>

<p>Lack of usage causes most shutter failures</p>

[phyliss_crowe]

<p>Shutter actuation count is the same as mileage on a car. At a certain rigorously tested point, certain parts are known to have experienced problems, even complete failure. Knowing that information has a huge influence on a consumer’s decision to negotiate a purchase or to walk away. It allows consumers to factor the cost of future replacement/repairs into the final purchase price. Thus IMO, consumers have the absolute right to know that information; otherwise, it could easily be construed as at least bordering on fraud. Concealing it had better raise suspicions as to why they’ve decided it’s none of your business. Would you buy a used car with a broken or no odometer?</p>

<p>The life of a DSLR is not infinite, but because people can now employ “machine gun” photo taking, they don’t realize there is a definite limit. Especially not when you can still find 30-40 year old and older film cameras chugging away flawlessly. Why should a DSLR be any different? They’re both cameras, right?</p>

<p>Personally, I have absolutely no use for a company that rather than respect their customer base by doing whatever it can to instill faith and loyalty in their customers and their brand by being upfront and open about every aspect of their products, it would rather play “gotcha games” by devising ways to sneak through the back door and into consumers’ pockets. Most of the other camera manufacturers have chosen NOT to keep purchasers in the dark by hiding that information. Why hasn’t Canon also made it available WITHOUT COST? Can you say “planned obsolesence”?</p>

[helen_oster]

<p>Playing devil's advocate, here - as a representative of a company that sells used equipment, Phyliss, I agree with you. I would much prefer that we were able to send out actuation counts for all the used units that we sell.<br>

But Canon's business is selling new cameras, not used. So maybe that's why it isn't a priority?</p>

[anov]

<blockquote>

<p>Shutter actuation count is the same as mileage on a car.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No it's not, the sensor is the engine. Shutter is more like tires.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Personally, I have absolutely no use for a company that rather than respect their customer base by doing whatever it can to instill faith and loyalty in their customers and their brand by being upfront and open about every aspect of their products, it would rather play “gotcha games” by devising ways to sneak through the back door and into consumers’ pockets.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You're entitled to that, but Canon is in the business of selling new cameras, with near 0 shutter counts, not used cameras.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>So if a shutter gets replaced at 95k shots on an Canon dslr and the count is at 100k;</p>

<p>******Do you want the count to be reset to ZERO when the shutter is replaced at 95k or left at 95k?</p>

<p>Do the camera makers have a uniform policy?</p>

<p>If reset to zero at each shutter replacement Brett might buy a camera that is listed at 1k clicks; but it really has 301k clicks with 3 shutters replaced at 100k.</p>

<p>How about getting the government involved and have a port that gives folks fingerprints; DNA; shock and vibration; temperature the body saw; and add 200 bucks per body? :)</p>

<p>In some consumer items the hour meters are reset to zero with a total overhaul; in other stuff it is not.</p>

<p>What if the counter in the camera gets hosed; ie lithium backup dies; or memory crashes so a worn out looking 5 year old dlsr only shows 500 clicks? ; but really has 105k clicks.</p>

<p>Through out photography's history buying used has been more risky. Now that some cameras have a shutter click reading; many folks will dwell on this piece of info; whether it has any bearing as to usage or not.</p>

<p>If a used Nikon or Canon dlsr or car is 7 years old; what shutter click or mileage do view as being the best; ie 100 clicks/miles; 1k; 3k; 10k; 30k; 100k, 300k clicks/miles?</p>

<p>many on this board would buy the one with 100 clicks; and might find that the unit has issues since capacitors inside have set idle for 7 years. If the computer in the car or camera has not been on for 6 years; is this a good thing?</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>If B&H and Adorama list clicks on their used cameras; will the ratings of say 7 on a Nikon D200 or 9 on a Canon dslr now be for looks; or clicks; or both?</p>

[alan_rockwood]

<p>I am surprised at the opposition to the idea of a customer wanting to know the shutter count. (I am NOT directing this comment to the representatives of Adorama or B&H.)</p>

<p>There seems to be a notion among some posters that shutter count is pretty much an irrelevant parameter. While it is true that the shutter may fail at any point, the following points are also highly likely to be true:</p>

<p>1) Canon almost certainly has a shutter count design goal for most (probably all) of the cameras they produce. Generally, the higher end cameras are designed for a higher shutter count.</p>

<p>2) All else being equal, the shutter in a camera that has had few actuations is more likely to last longer (relative to the time of purchase of the used camera) than one that has had a lot of actuations. Will it always be the true for an individual camera? No, but it is very likely to be statistically true.</p>

<p>3) The number of shutter actuations is almost certainly correlated with how much use the camera has had. In fact, of all parameters one could imagine, the number of shutter actuations is likely the very single best single indicator of camera usage. All else being equal, a lightly used cameras is likely to be in better overall shape (including non-obvious internal factors) and last longer from the time of purchase of the used camera than a camera that has been heavily used.</p>

<p>Wanting to know the shutter count is very reasonable.</p>

[alan_rockwood]

<p>Here is an article on the Gompertz-Makeham model of failure analysis. It may or may not apply exactly to shutter cycling of canon cameras, but it is probably not too far from wrong in its general features.</p>

<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gompertz-Makeham_law_of_mortality</p>