Best Value Light Meter

[frank_gary]

<p>I have been reading Ansel Adam's the negative and now have a strong desire to shoot BW film using the zone system. My problem is that I don't trust the light meter in any of the cameras I have (my d80 has to have lots of compensation, film bodies are just old center weighted). Because of this I'm looking to buy a nice external meter that represents good value. I figured that like most of my stuff I would look used to save some money. I would like to have both spot and ambient metering, flash is a bonus but not something worth "paying up" for. Right now I'm not to concerned if the best value come from carrying two meters (one for spot, one for ambient) but of course a single meter would be better. The meter does need to be accurate enough for use also with slide film and digital. From the research I've done it seems that I can get some great deals on sekonic l-508 and l-608's on the bay, but have heard that there are some issues with these meters not being accurate. What would people suggest with a budget around $200? Are there any special features that tend to make one meter better to use than another? Thanks in advance.</p>

[m_dawg]

<p>If you want to use the zone system, the pentax digital spotmeter is probably the gold standard and practically built for the zone system. It seems rather impossible to use the zone system with a built-in meter or incident meter. I've never tried using it since I don't have access to a dark room so I'm not an expert, though.</p>

<p>If you're looking for a general purpose meter the sekonics are nice. My 758cine is my favorite piece of gear but I might have saved money and gone for a 508 had I known they were available for $200 used (though I hear they are slower to operate due to no lcd in the spot meter finder, a significant omission). For landscapes I rarely use the incident meter, for cinema and portrait type stuff it's indispensable, though. It's a wonderful meter; its only major flaw is that it has so many features/modes and it can be overwhelming.</p>

<p>The 758 seems very accurate, though I have heard rumors that it's calibrated for darker than 18% gray. Maybe it is, but it's consistent. There are plenty of reasons it would seem inaccurate, though: incorrect exposure comp for a polarizer or other filter; incorrect reading for a given color or given color temperature when using panchromatic vs. orthochromatic film; inaccurate mechanical shutter speeds; lack of compensation for f-stops vs. t-stops; etc. It's not a ttl meter and a ttl matrix meter will always be more consistent.<br>

Separate meters make sense to the extent that you want the best of each, but if you plan to use a spot meter and incident meter in tandem I think a sekonic dualmeter is a good choice. I can't speak for the accuracy of the older models, but the 758 seems very accurate and you can load custom profiles (or manually adjust the iso) if you find it's not accurate to what you'd like. The interface is just wonderful, too. It's fun to use and incredibly functional.</p>

 

[leighb]

<p>You definitely need a spot meter for Zone System work. In fact that's the foundation of the Zone System.</p>

<p>The Pentax SpotMatic was the original spot meter used for this task, I believe. Other Pentax models are certainly suitable. I use a Minolta SpotMeter that I've had for years. Personal preference.</p>

<p>As with most tools, look at what's available and make your choice based on your needs and budget. Any of them should work fine.</p>

<p>One caution regarding ZS...<br /> Remember that it was designed for view camera work, where you could develop each individual exposure according to your desired results. Doing ZS with any roll film system is much more of a challenge. But I've done it successfully... no reason you can't also.</p>

<p>Good luck with the project.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

[aplumpton]

<p>I bought a Minolta spotmeter M in very fine condition for the price you mention (220$). The Minolta gear are very accurate, maybe the most accurate., per se, but like all meters, especially spot meters where you might be reading a very confined area, the meters see different colours differently and if you are measuring say a blue area or a yellow area or a red area the correction to be applied to the meter reading is different in each case. Some spotmeters have been modified (such as some but not all digital pentax spotmeters) to cancel out the different colour reflectivities, but you need to know that different colours reflect differently, reflecting more or less light than a grey card does.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>I personally like Sekonics. I still have 30 year old's that function as perfectly today as they did when I was using them for pro work. I blew through Minoltas like candy because they kept failing me. I've owned one Gossen and it eats batteries like crazy. And then I have a Pentax V spot meter that functions flawlessly since I bought it new in the 80's. They still sell used for as much as what I paid new, but I'd go with the Pentax or Sekonic. I've never had accuracy problems with the Sekonics, but I think people are measuring them against their cameras, and that's not a fair comparison. When you consider that our business is mostly about light, it is hard to not spend more money on a good meter. </p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>It's big, and goes through batteries at an alarming pace, but the Gossen Spotmaster is <em>the</em> meter for Zone System.<br>

It has a Zone Mode, that allows you to place readings on the Zone scale, and shows how N+ and N- processing shifts values on the scale, i.e. how the range expands or contracts with changes in exposure and processing.<br>

It, of course, translates that into the correct exposure automatically.</p>

<p>(It also has none of the colour problems mentioned two posts above. But mind: colours <em>are</em> different.)</p>

<p>A lot is said above about calibration. But do know that you have to get to know a meter (any meter) and 'tune' your entire process to how it happens to work.</p>

[sasvata__shash__chatterjee]

<p>Even if you are not using the zone system, but using external light meters, then a spot meter is still very useful. I bought a incident-only Minolta Flash Meter IV at a used-camera show, but I got a great deal and cost me only $45, so I won't feel too bad buying another meter :-). I still need a spot meter. I was recently shooting in Manhattan streets. There was not a bit of sunlight anywhere at street-level for me to measure incident light, yet the tops of buildings were bathed in evening sunlight (hard to estimate with Sunny f/16, it changes in intensity by the minute), and I was shooting slide film! There are plenty of cases where you the photographer cannot be in the same light as your subject is (or, mostly is) in. There are combined meters that do spot and incident, but be sure to get one that has a minimum 1-degree spot. 5-degrees and higher: a lot of folks will not consider that a spot, but more an averaging meter.</p>

[chrisnielsen]

<p>What's wrong with the spot meter in your D80?</p>

[john_elder1]

<p>You can buy a 5 degree attachment for your Minolta flash meter which I have found to work great. Its a small enough spot to be effective for any format.</p>

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>You can buy a 5 degree attachment for your Minolta flash meter which I have found to work great.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Five degrees is not narrow enough for Zone System work in the general case.<br>

All texts that I know of recommend one-degree meters.<br>

- Leigh</p>

 

[david_henderson]

<p>I use the Sekonic 508 and outside of one failure on a trip a year or two ago, I've had no reason to doubt the accuracy of either of my examples. But then I'm sure that Gossen, Pentax etc are just as good as spotmeters, though some models are less versatile. I concur also that a one degree unit will be much more useful for you.</p>

[rob_piontek]

<p>I agree your D80 in spot meter mode should work fine. Two problems, though, it's big and heavy, and it's kind of a pain to use as the exposure scale doesn't extend very far. </p>

[guido_h]

<p>The Kenko KFM-2100 spotmeter would be another option, since it also does incident and flash metering. Lots of digital... digits and buttons though ;-) That's why I recently bought myself an analog Pentax Spotmeter V again, which I find much easier to use in the field.</p>

[dave_redmann]

<p>No doubt a Sekonic L-508 or Pentax meter would be easier to use, but if you want, I think you can use your D80; it's just that to get the "spot" meter to meter on a small enough spot, you may need to use a lens with a narrower field of view than the lens on the camera you're using to actually take the picture. (Although I am not familiar with the D80's meter, many in-camear "spot" meters cover a large enough spot that the term "partial meter" would be more accurate). Given the easy availability of inexpensive lenses with very narrow fields of view, relative to medium- (and especially large-) format cameras, this often works fairly well. Do you have a run-of-the-mill 75-300mm for your D80? Even a partial meter becomes a true spot meter when you have a 1.53x-crop DSLR and a 300mm lens, and you're metering for something with a normal or wide-angle lens. I have done something similar in the past (using a 70-210mm zoom lens at the long end to turn a partial meter into effectively a spot meter, relative to a 28mm taking lens); it may not be the easiest thing to do, but it is workable.</p>

 

[Tony Evans]

<p>I have used a Soligar Digital Spot for years and love it. You can pick them up on ebay for a lot less than the Pentax. You don't need an incident meter as well. Just spot your grey card.</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>I have a Sekonic L-508, now eleven years old and working perfectly. While you can use many DSLRs in a spot mode, none will measure incident light nor flash like the L-508. There's not much to go wrong, it uses a single AA battery and the meter is weather sealed (not waterproof).</p>

<p>I would like to have some of the features in the L-758, including a built-in PocketWizard transmitter, but I'll get by.</p>

[marc_batters]

<p>Frank, I pondered your same thoughts when I was trying to decide which 'single' meter to buy. Price wise, I ended up with three meters, and I am very happy. <br /> An analog Pentax V, One Degree Spotmeter, for landscape and attempting the Zone System. $110<br /> A digital Gossen meter for mostly indoor flash work. $105<br /> And my trusty 'old' selenium-cell Sekonic for simple shots anywhere. $10<br /> That covers all the bases for me, and without breaking the bank. My solution won't work for everybody, but multiple meters is a viable option to consider. Of the three meters, only the spotmeter takes-up a fair amount of space in the kit bag, and this is only an issue if your bag is too small, (they always are).<br /> I hope that someday Mack, Peterbuilt, or Kenworth will build camera bags. (ten-four good buddy)</p>

<p> </p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Pentax Spot is the gold standard for utilizing the zone system. A 1% spot. Also, the zone system is really difficult to do in roll film. Its really designed for the single exposure view camera where you can develop each photograph individually. How are you going to individually meter, expose and develop roll film especially if taken at different locations in different light.</p>

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>Its really designed for the single exposure view camera where you can develop each photograph individually. How are you going to individually meter, expose and develop roll film especially if taken at different locations in different light.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I pointed that out in an earlier post.</p>

<p>Here are some suggestions, all focused on shooting a full roll:<br /> 1) Shoot multiple subjects/views in the area under similar lighting conditions. You can vary the exposure as long as the desired dynamic range is consistent.<br /> 2) Take multiple exposures of one or two subjects, bracketing the exposure or changing the view or changing lenses so you get several useful images.<br /> 3) Hand-load the film canisters with shorter lengths of film, perhaps a dozen frames or less.</p>

<p>The key here is the dynamic range. That's the heart of the zone system. As long as you hold that one parameter consistent for the entire roll, you can adjust your development to match it and everything will come out fine.</p>

<p>Due to changes in developer activity it's not wise to shoot a few exposures and leave the balance of the roll unexposed. This can cause real problems.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[graham_martin2]

<p>I do have a question concerning the Pentax spotmeter versus a Sekonic L-308S flashmate meter. I have a Hasselblad 500 c/m. I do not develop my own film. Am I better off using the spotmeter or the Sekonik? When I use the Pentax I point it at 4 or 5 "zones" and then take an average for purposes of setting my exposure. Sometimes there is a 3 stop difference between the average spotmeter reading and the Sekonik. This leads to some confusion on my part as to which meter's readings to use.</p>

[leighb]

<p>Hi Graham,</p>

<p>Proper metering for Zone System exposure is a complex exercise that requires study and experimentation.</p>

<p>The ZS requires a much higher level of precision than is normal for film photography. The system is based on calibration of the entire process, from film exposure through the final print.</p>

<p>ZS exposure is based on a determination of the brightest and darkest areas of the scene that are to retain detail in the print. The difference between these values is the "dynamic range" of the scene.</p>

<p>Based on calibration of your film and developing process, you select an exposure that will give detail in the shadows, as defined above. Then you adjust the development for the desired highlight density, based on the scene's dynamic range.</p>

<p>For a given scene and level of illumination, your correct exposure might be two stops above shadow for one film/developer combination, but three stops above for a different combination. Calibration of these factors is essential to successful application of the ZS. There is no "universal" rule.</p>

<p>As to exposure metering... You MUST use a one-degree spotmeter for most scenes. The variation in luminance if using a meter with a broader acceptance angle can be enough to totally invalidate your measurements. Using an incident meter won't give you any information useful for ZS.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[m_dawg]

<p>Agreed, trying to use the zone system or anything like it without a one degree spotmeter is somewhere between an exercise in futility and a pointless attempted at misguided imitation. I've never bothered trying the zone system because I don't do my own darkroom work so...for me it's totally pointless. If you don't do your own darkroom work, it's probably pointless for you, too.</p>

<p>Spotmeters aren't for getting an "average" exposure. They're for mapping the specific characteristic curve of a given film exactly where you want it for a given subject and its surroundings, in tandem with grad filters, reflectors and lights (if you choose to use them; extremely few use strobes for landscapes), polarizers, and dodging and burning. I'm not pretending I'm capable of doing this, btw. It's hard. But using a spotmeter for an average reading provides little creative benefit over using built-in matrix metering and is generally less accurate. The zone system discourages this and it definitely informs how I approach exposure, but I don't follow it specifically because I shoot slide film. That said, if you're smart about it you can probably get great photos using an average reading, but it's an imprecise process. Whether or not you have a good eye is like 100 times more important than how you choose your exposures--so I may be dogmatic about the wrong things--but a spotmeter is much more powerful than most give it credit for being.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Ok Leigh. You would not only have to shoot the whole role in similar light, you also will develop the whole roll uniformly. I suppose bracketing would also back into moving the tones around but its not really the same as picking exactly where your lightest tone with detail, darkest tone with detail and middle grey will be and then developing accordingly. Bracketing will let you move your exposure up and down, but then less of your shots will be properly exposed after development as pulling development for one of the bracketed exposures will not jive with other bracketed exposures, but at least you'll be sure of getting some good exposures.<br>

But it's not just about "good exposure" its about where you want tones in the photograph to be. Again, the zone system was devised with the view camera in mind so you can push or pull development to retard blown-out highlights and blocked shadows. In other words you can pull out a wider range of latitude by development depending on your exposures. If you bracket images on a roll, which is often a good idea, won't you lose the advantage of the development side of the zone system ie, retarding development of highlights and broadening out the tonal range? </p>

 

[frank_gary]

<p>The points raised about use of the zone system with roll film are great points and not something that I'm currently worrying myself about (but yes I should be). My main goal with using ZS (at this time) is to be aware of where values are falling, what is being clipped/blocked and selecting my exposure based on that. In time I may either shoot 4x5 or MF roll (I actually shoot 35mm but figured you MF guys would know light meters better). If I go the MF way then I'm planning on interchangeable backs and having 4 (N, N+1, N-1, color slide) and select the best back for the situation ( really like the home load short rolls idea too). While we are on it though, are there any labs that will develop for you to the ZS. Not that I have anything against developing film myself but right now it feels like it may just be one more variable that I don't need.<br /> It sounds to me that I need to focus on the usability of the spot feature of a meter and then view everything else as bonus.<br>

By the way I just wanted to say that the wonder advice like I'm receiving on this forum is the reason I find pnet such a great place to learn. I really appreciate everyone being willing to share their knowledge and experience.</p>

[leighb]

<p>Hi Frank,</p>

<p>Yes, using multiple backs is almost as good as using a view camera and having individual films to develop.</p>

<p>You can get the same results with either method. The backs might have just slightly less flexibility, but I doubt it would matter.</p>

<p>And yes, the MF guys have more experience with metering and exposure calculations, perhaps more than we'd like to have. ;-)</p>

<p>Regarding labs...<br>

I don't know where you're located. You can generally find professional labs in the major metropolitan areas that will develop to spec. You'll probably have better luck with a few rolls needing identical development than with several that each require different times. I have no recommendations since I develop my own.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

<p> </p>