Am I getting ripped off?

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>Also- this isn't my real name, I learned that quickly on here years ago.</p>

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>And John there is no sugar coating on my end, unfortunatley I probably left out more red flags in this conversatoin than anything!</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p> I love it when people ask a question ("how much do you want?") and you answer it, and they proceed to tell you you shouldn't be getting that much. <br /><br />I'd avoid her like the plague.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Well, the only way to negotiate a fee is start high and try not to have it reduced too much. You can't do it the other way round by agreeing a low price and then trying to increase it.</p>

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>Ok-new wrench thrown in. She told me she doesn't have time to come up with a contract before tomorrow and that I should put one in writing. Uggg, I don't know what to put in one and I have to work till 5pm tonight and be at another wedding for my own company at 5:45 right after work. Any suggestions?</p>

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>Just found one on ppa and now that I'm a member I can get it. So I'm going to work with that.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong ><em >"I don't know what to put in one and I have to work till 5pm tonight and be at another wedding for my own company at 5:45 right after work. Any suggestions?"</em></strong><br>

<br>

1. If she has no legal hold on you: . . . WALK.<br>

<br>

***<br>

<br>

2. Get a good handle on how to do business, background and negotiate, with other business people. <br>

<br>

To be blunt it seems that these skills are lacking in your education and experience thus far. <br>

<br>

I have not read all the fine detail of this long thread, BUT it appears this Wedding is imminent and is the day after a Wedding which is already contracted for your own business and you have a full time job as well as your Wedding sideline business . . . and you are still discussing terms, details and conditions of this second shooter wedding? ? ? <br>

<br>

If I have it correct in a nutshell: <br>

<br>

On 9^th June you are still bashing out terms and do not know full details and information about a gig you will be shooting 12^th June . . . employed by someone WHO APPROACHED YOU . . . <br>

<br>

Have you done a full credit and detailed and full business reference analysis of her set up ? ? ? <br>

<br>

Have you spoken to – interrogated - others whom she has previously employed and / or approached to work for her ? ? ? <br>

<br>

IMO, you have seen what appears to be an “easy” $500 and you appear to be compromising you own business and your clients, because you have succumb to that temptation. <br>

<br>

Selling can easily be just offering to someone a temptation unto which they will certainly succumb.<br>

<br>

I do not assume that I am correct in my interpretation of this situation, but it does appear to me that you: <strong ><em >have bought on impulse </em></strong>a product <strong ><em >which tempted you greatly</em></strong>, because it seemed an easy method of providing you with something you believed you required. <br>

<br>

Have a think about that – you being the customer and buying something – you are buying $500 for your time ? ? ? was that was what was SOLD to you? ? ? <br>

<br>

IMO, You need to get your own house in order and learn how to correctly deal with other business people and understand what business is and the elements of business which might thus far be unfamiliar to you. <br>

<br>

WW<br>

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[ObiWon]

<p>Elizabeth,</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>Ok-new wrench thrown in. She told me she doesn't have time to come up with a contract before tomorrow and that I should put one in writing. Uggg, I don't know what to put in one and I have to work till 5pm tonight and be at another wedding for my own company at 5:45 right after work. Any suggestions?</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>At this point I would advise RUN and don't look back! If they can't get this right, then the money you may or may not get paid is a moot point. Can you afford to do this for nothing? If not RUN<br>

That is all I have to say, if it walks like a Duck................<br>

Best of luck.</p>

<p>Jim</p>

 

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Any suggestions?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Get the money first!</p>

[JRCrowe]

<p>Don't turn anything over until you have the cash money in hand and preferably before you do even one shutter click. Steve is right on.</p>

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>William,<br>

I certaintly don't agree with your post, in fact for someone who has been in the business for 4 years versus this lady who has been in this business 20+ years, I seem to have a much better understanding of how a business needs to be run. Yes this was the very first time I was a second shooter, ever, so I had many questions and learned alot but in no way dose that represent my inability to run a business efficiently. I've built my own business from the ground up and am doing great with it (boosted business by 50% in the last year).<br>

For everyone else- the wedding was not a disaster. The first shooter (not the business owner) was a breeze to work with and we meshed very well together. Plus it was a great experience to see how someone else approaches wedding photography. I am meeting her tomorrow to give her the images and get my money. Thanks for all your help and I'm so glad it turned out 100 times better than what I imagined it would be like! She has a lot to take care of as far as how she runs her own business but for me- to be there for 9 hours, and then walk out with no further obligations and make $500 was a great deal after all!</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>" . . . I [certainly] don't agree with your post, in fact for someone who has been in the business for 4 years versus this lady who has been in this business 20+ years, I seem to have a much better understanding of how a business needs to be run. Yes this was the very first time I was a second shooter, ever, so I had many questions and learned alot but in no way dose that represent my inability to run a business efficiently."</em></strong><br /><br />Thank you for responding and in so doing, reporting the outcome of the situation and making more description to it.<br /><br />The fact that you disagree with my interpretation of the situation - as it was described to me here and a few days ago PRIOR to the event and the now known outcomes – goes indeed to validate your view that my understanding of the situation was wrong; and your appreciation of the situation was flawed and my commentary that your business skills might not have been adequate, was also less than accurate.<br />It is always easier to undersatnd the situation when it is documented as history - also understand that your title "am I being ripped off" indicated (to me) that you had both resevations, hesitation, and some sense of red flags.<br /><br />Also understand and be clear in the fact that that the number of questions you were asking, did NOT make me assume you had any inability to run your business –<strong><em> what made me signal red flags to you in strong terms, was your description of the actions of the third party.</em></strong><br /><br />You might have taken my commentary as judgemental or unfeeling toward you – it was not. It was plainly and simply warnings to you as I anticipated you were succumbing to some of the more artful manoeuvrers in business.</p>

<p>But it appears that I was wrong. It seems from your description, that the third party is just disorganized, not scheming.<br /><br />I am glad that it worked out well for you. . . so in this sense I too indeed am part of the paragraph adressed to "for everyone else"</p>

<p>:)<br>

<br /><br />WW</p>

[johncrosley]

<p>Elizabeth,<br>

I hope you look back on this forum post more fondly than you might, when you take a breather. Though you may now associate it with a lot of 'Sky is Falling' advice, in truth for most of the posters here, the sky has fallen, at least once, and often it was presaged by 'bad vibes and unsettled affairs' shortly before weddings.<br>

I'm not a wedding photographer and participated solely because of my very long past but still relevant legal experience; those such as myself who have seen things go 'sour' often can fill in the blanks when a client walks in and starts to tell a story (and often do). A client would walk in, start a story, and an experienced attorney would say, 'wait, don't tell me the end, let me fill it in . . . . ' and of course, did so invariably right.<br>

But not everyone ends up in an attorney's office and 99+ % of all transactions get worked out without substantial disputes let alone in attorneys' offices or in litigation.<br>

People have a way of resolving difficulties if they're reasonable; it was your tone and general presentation of disorganization so soon prior to the wedding that set so many members off, I think and caused so many cautions - points well taken I think given the monumental importance of weddings in people's lives.<br>

You have received literally a lifetime of advice here, and it has been well taken, for the most part, I think. I know if I ever became a wedding photographer, I have had a good course in what to do and not to do.<br>

If you were to have paid for such advice, you couldn't have afforded it; one of the great benefits of PN membership. (and I am not known as a booster, particularly, but credit where credit is due.)<br>

john<br>

John (Crosley)</p>

[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>John and William- thank you both for your responses and you both are on point. I think this situation was either going to be me ending up in hot water with a scheming stranger offering a quick $500 or me working with a disorganzied vendor who legitimately needed me for a day of shooting at the rate of $500. Luckily for me it was the later. I agree that the advice on here is one of a kind and it's helped me greatly in the past 4 years. I started this business alone, never had a mentor of any kind or even "photographer friends," but this place has given me that in a certain way! Thank you for taking the time to care about a fellow photographer who could have been part of a bad situation. Believe me, I think I've learned more about the "biz," in the past week than I have in a long time! Thank you to everyone who submittie a post- negative or postitive, you all gave me something to think about!</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Two points I have learned during my few years doing this Photography stuff, particularly Wedding Photography: (both are linked in regard to this thread). <br /><br />1) I refer to this first point as my favourite oxym0ron of Wedding Photography: Wedding Photography is the Business of Capturing Emotion – the trick whilst putting <strong><em>My Emotion into my work,</em></strong> I cannot get emotionally involved when making Business Decisions. <br /><br />Also I cannot afford to “be emotional” (in an emotional state of disarray) when I am on the job. My head must be clear; my mind sharp; and my thoughts focussed. Although most do not think of it, my Clients pay me their money for this skill I have - to clear my mind of issues and focus on the task, single-mindedly. In this regard, I still prep my mind before a gig, ridding it of personal issues and turmoil and to not allowing my mind to become embroiled in any turmoil unleashed at the gig, or prior to it. (I assume a cracker lawyer has the same clarity of thought when addressing the Court on behalf of their Client).

<p>

<p>2) In business (actually in life) - all advice received is <strong><em>positive advice</em></strong>, because it simply describes how another person sees the situation.

<p>

<p>Often advice is taken personally (as a personal attack): and in some cases it might be so. But that doesn’t matter either.

<p>

<p>In business, if one gets emotionally involved in decisions (or advice), one usually makes bad choices, because one looses the clarity of thought and the focussed view of the situation or the essence of the advice – be it meant personally, or not.

<p>

<p>***

<p>

<p>The greatest pleasure a Coach gets is when the Swimmer does a PB (personal best). Doing a PB is more reward than any thanks the swimmer can give a Coach.

<p>

<p>It appears a PB was just done here - Brava.

<p>

<p>WW</p>

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[elizabeth_morrissey]

<p>Lots to think about in that last post, thanks William! Glad you saw it as a PB!</p>

[dtphoto]

<blockquote>

<p>my favourite oxym0ron of Wedding Photography: Wedding Photography is the Business of Capturing Emotion – the trick whilst putting <strong><em>My Emotion into my work,</em></strong> I cannot get emotionally involved when making Business Decisions.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Great wisdom, William.</p>

<p>Thank you, Elizabeth for sharing your experiences for the benefit of others.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Thanks.</p>