How to over power the sun

[dan_tripp]

I was on Flickr last night and found a photographer that uses a Vivitar 285 outside to over power the sun. What does that really mean and

how do you do that?

[phule]

<p>I have a link that seems like it would be useful for this thread, but photo.net is blocking it for some reason...</p>

<p>Let's see if this works:</p>

<p>http:// make light real dot com slash overpower-the-sun</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>I've seen this done with ABs or Rangers with powerpacks, but I didn't think the AA-powered flashes had the eggs to overpower the sun that way. Even the link above shows a light and powerpack...</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Dan, when you're shooting outside in broad daylight, a flash is almost mandatory to fill in the shadows created by the Sun. If the Sun is overhead you will get the infamous Raccoon Eyes on your subjects (shadows underneath the eyes caused by the forehead).</p>

<p>But what I think your Flickr guy was referring too by overpowering the Sun was to light your subject with a flash with more power than the pervading light such that the background becomes dark. Like <a href="

<p>To do this you need a VERY powerful flash, and it helps to have a fast sync speed too. Now you'll find out why people complain that Pentax's sync is only 1/180s instead of 1/250s like in many Canikon cameras (or even 1/500s on the Nikon D40).</p>

[phule]

<p>[[To do this you need a VERY powerful flash]]</p>

<p>Or you need a number of less powerful flashes all working together.</p>

 

[miserere_mei]

<blockquote>

<p>Or you need a number of less powerful flashes all working together.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Fine, I bow down to semantics :-)</p>

<p>You can also do it with an AA-powered strobe placed close to your subject. I'd post an example, but they're on my home computer.</p>

[phule]

<p>Well, I don't think it's an issue of semantics but of cost! :)</p>

<p>I can't find the link right now (maybe it's on strobist?) but I remember seeing a photo of someone who had set up multiple inexpensive flashes on a single mount all triggering together for just such a task.</p>

<p>The point being that "a very powerful flash" sounds like: "You need to spend a ton of money" (to me at least, maybe I'm off here) when you may be able to get by with the stuff you have sitting around all ready.</p>

 

[dan_tripp]

Ron. The link did not work. Miserere that pic was dark. I'm looking more for blue skys.

 

Can someone talk me through the setup. Would you set two AA flashes directly at the subject (no diffuser) and shoot a

low ISO with a high f/stop?

[phule]

<p>If the sky is blue then you're not overpowering the sun. I think what you're looking for is fill light or fill flash.</p>

<p>If you substitute the "dot" and "slash" with a dot and a slash, and remove the spaces, the link should work. Regardless, it's the first item returned from google when you search for "overpowering the sun"</p>

[luis_g]

<p>Or....you can get really close to your subject (besides using a really high synch speed and high GN flash).</p>

[orly_andico]

<p>I bought a ton of cheap disposable camera flashes from Electronics Goldmine.</p>

<p>A couple problems... they have very high trigger voltage. So you need Sam Goldwasser's low voltage trigger circuit.</p>

<p>Second, you can't just parallel the trigger wires together, they won't fire together reliably. So you need to build a low-voltage trigger for each flash. The cost begins escalating right away.</p>

<p>I think it's better to buy the GN 22 Yongnuo flash (about $70) which can do dumb optical slave mode. With 2-3 of these you probably have enough light, besides multiple flashes is always good.</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>Re: a grip ton of inexpensive flashes..... If you don't already own several flashes, than you should just purchase a head and a powerpack and be done with it. For the cost of 4-5-6, whatever hot-shoe flashes, you could have just ponied up for the nice light and power and gotten the same power out of it. Zack Arias actually started <a href="http://www.zarias.com/where-hot-shoe-flashes-dare-not-go/">comparing a few systems</a> back on January 19th while attempting to do the same thing you are. I'd probably do the same thing if I got enough paid work to front the cost for it.</p>

[dan_tripp]

Ahhh so fill light. So people are misusing the term. So if the sun is high you want fill flash. Should that be diffused?

 

BTW Jeremiah that was a nice article.

[andrewg_ny]

<p>Nice if you can diffuse fill flash but of course requires more power when power may be at a premium (bright light, possible use of HSS).</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Yes in most cases you want to soften the flash a little. The trick is to keep the shot looking like a natural light shot and not a fill flash shot. You can also use reflectors to help in situations where the flash just can't fill everything in.</p>

<p>When I shoot weddings, I'm using the flash outside all the time and getting shots that avoid people looking into the sun. It takes practice but you can keep the shot looking natural with flash. Only one is needed most of the time with proper exposure and the right lens.</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>Jeremiah, thanks for sharing that link. Understanding the issues surrounding sync speed is something it has taken a while to absorb--and that post distills it better than most. Obviously though, overpowering the sun to turn day into night for full-body shots (requiring yet more flash range/power) isn't something the casual photographer needs to do on a regular basis and kind of falls into 'special needs'. There's something about lugging around 20 or more lbs of lighting equipment that is decidedly NOT casual.</p>

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>Andrew, that's very true. If you need that much power, there's definitely something specific in mind, but if my choices were to carry around 6 Hot-shoe flashes, light stands, brackets, modifiers, etc... versus one head/battery pack and one light stand etc... I probably pick just the one big heavy thing to lug around instead of 6 smaller sets. I can just imagine trying to use 6 sets of sandbags to hold all that down when the wind picks up!</p>

[deaner66]

<p>Overpowering the sun isn't hard to do. All you are doing is using a flash (preferably, off-camera) to provide the key light in a bright, sunny area. When you overpower the sun, you use the fastest shutter speed that your camera can evenly light the frame or sensor. This is your sync speed.</p>

<p>So, the best way to overpower the sun is to set the camera to the X Setting, which is 1/185th speed. This is the Pentax max flash sync speed. You can't set a faster shutter speed and get the hot shoe to fire.</p>

<p>Combined with this, you set an aperture that sets the background exposure just a stop or two too dark. Get that right--which is easier than it sounds--then all you have to do is set a power on your flash that properly exposes the subject. If you can't adjust the power of the flash, you can move it closer or farther away to get the same effect.</p>

<p>When you put both exposures together, you should have a dramatic shot with a dark, possibly sunny, background and the subject is lit almost entirely by the flash, which is your key (main) light. Looks real cool when you get it right.</p>

<p>Again, turn off your flash and take a test shot, then set your f/stop so the background is a stop or two under-exposed. Then turn your flash back on and adjust your flash so it lights your subject the way you prefer. Then take your picture.</p>

<p>That's overpowering the sun.</p><div></div>

[deaner66]

<p>Actually, this is a better example. The picture of my wife at sunset isn't a true example of overpowering the sun.</p>

<p>This senior picture was taken on a bright, overcast day. But the senior was lit with two, bare hand-held flashes. That allowed me to dial down the aperture to make the sky go dark.</p>

<p>It really is easier than I make it sound.</p><div></div>

[sfcole]

<p>No one has mentioned a simpler way to achieve this: use a neutral density filter on the lens, which effectively increases the relative power of the flash (you need to lower iso).</p>

 

[jeremy_corbin]

<p>Scott, I don't think that works the way it may seem. Wouldn't a ND filter reduce light from everything entering the lens and not just the ambient light? That would mean that it doesn't increase your flash power at all, and you're right back where you started...just 6-8 stops less light for everything.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Sorry Scott but Jeremaih is correct. An ND is of no value because you are just reducing the light of everything in the scene. Steve's examples are the right way to get the job done.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>I usually find that flash use will only get about a stop, at most, over full sun. It's tough to fight the sun most of the time. You can use flash out there, but it often has to be just about right on top of the topic area. It'd be almost more useful to put a huge dark tent over the object outdoors than it will be to outpower the sun with some strobes. </p>

<p>It's not impossible, but I think one would almost be better off setting up the shot at night or twilight rather than trying to overpower the sun. </p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Of course, the only true way to overpower the sun is with the Fireball post-process icon for SuperNova3. </p>

[sfcole]

<p>Jeremiah/Peter,<br>

Sorry, you guys were right. Wasn't thinking...</p>