Not prepared, need help

[robert_sholl]

<p>I only recently decided to "ruin my hobby" and I have a pretty detailed path I had decided on. Yesterday, my path took a shortcut.<br>

I have been asked and accepted a job shooting a family portrait session. Husband, wife, child and dog.<br>

We are going to shoot on a beach so there is no studio involved. My wife is my what people not married to a redhead would call an "assistant" but for health reason, I work for her :)<br>

I am allotting 2 hours for this. I think we will shoot at at least two locations so 10-15 minutes will be moving from one to the other.<br>

My problem is I have no idea how to structure pricing for this.<br>

My initial thought was to just price prints at 2x cost. When I realized that would generate $5 per 8 x 10 it seemed like a less than great idea.<br>

I offer framing/matting/canvas but if they choose just prints Im back to $5 a print. <br>

My next thought was a flat fee with 50% applied to print orders. Does that work?<br>

Finally, I plan to include digital copies on DVD as well as giving them an online portfolio to order additional prints (Zenfolio/Mpix).<br>

I am really at a loss. I dont want to mess this up since it is my first "family" shoot. I had not planned on doing family work so soon so everything I have set up is "art" sales/stock. Realizing that I am new, I am not looking to make a killing but at the same time, I dont want any referrals because I am the "Wal Mart" of family shoots.</p>

<p>thanks in advance,<br>

Rob</p>

[kevin_b.2]

<p>Usually 4x-5x is the markup, or charge an upfront fee and give a DVD with images away but thats a touchy topic all together. You need to see what others in your area are charging. Did you account for post processing work?</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>No, I did not account for any post processing. I have no idea what other photographers in the area charge. I had not planned on competing with them yet :)<br>

5x would generate roughly $12 per 8 x 10. I can lives with that I think. That would make 8 x 10 $15 which is really reasonable.</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>OK, I checked web sites and it seems the low end is $80 for a sitting, one 8x10 and three 5x7s. I couldn't find a high end.<br>

I probably know the answer already but it seems unethical to contact studio's about their prices.</p>

[albert_richardson1]

<p>

 

<p>What are you getting for your labor? $75-$100/Hr sounds pretty reasonable for a sole-proprietor starting out. Don't forget to charge the customer for your overhead time as well as the direct time you spend on his project. (Asking for help on PN is a form of project overhead relating to the research you have done to get things right.) Do you have to travel to get to the beach? Are there admission/usage fees? Beaches can produce high contrast results because the sun is so bright. Plan on using morning or afternoon time to have a more pleasing and easier to manage natural lighting. Take a reflector to put light into the shadows on your subjects to reduce the contrast. </p>

<p>You seem to think that the prints you make are the main product your client if paying you for. These are the tangible results for sure, but he is buying your services as well. That is, he's paying for your experience and ability to create the setting as well as making the prints. When his money is well-spent you are able to give him images he will appreciate without a lot of difficulty and down time (confusion, blundering, apparent trial and error efforts to figure out what to do) on your part to get there. This can be an area that gets newbies into trouble. You never want a client to tell you that he paid you to give him the results, NOT to learn how to do the job!</p>

 

</p>

[Karim Ghantous]

<p>Well, Robert, I can only speak morally, not commercially. Pay attention to Albert's points, especially about time of day (and pay attention to clothing, too). Maybe a practice session out on your own with some friends or something will help. I almost messed up my first wedding (even though that is not what I want to do consistently) but my next one will be 10x better. FWIW. Good luck, matey!</p>

[karen_lippowiths]

<p>All great responses here and I hope I can add some additional insight. You'll probably do this once then realize how little money you made. Don't worry, most of us make this mistake early on (I did). As Albert wisely points out, you're not only charging for the time spent with the client, you're charging for the time and expenses needed to run your business. I average 10-15 hour per project with each client -- that includes drive time, shoot time, sales time, proof time, e-mail time, production, and delivery -- I spend closer to 15 hours with a first-time client and around 10 for a returning client. I also spend about 20 more hours per week on marketing, financial, taxes, web administration, etc. I average two shoots a week (it varies depending on the time of year but I cap my session load to about 100 each year), so I work around 40 hours total.</p>

<p>Your goal take-home in terms of percentage should be 35-40% of your gross dollar. This is a PPA benchmark recommendation. That sounds easy until you begin to look at everything you spend on the shoot and on the business AND THE AMOUNT YOU NEED TO PAY YOURSELF FOR YOUR TIME. If you're not paying yourself for your time, you'r volunteering (or, you're enslaved). Then you need to pay personal income tax on that take-home amount. So, when you think of it this way, taking home roughly a third of $15 gives you $5 for both you and your wife and then you pay whatever percentage of taxes on top of that. If your total order is say around $750, that means both you and your wife take home a grand total of $250. I certainly couldn't (and wouldn't want to) do business for that amount.</p>

<p>As a general rule (and this is an average, so some pieces are more and some are less), my mark-up factor is around 10x. I purchase a mounted UV coated 5x7 print from White House at about $5.50 and I charge $65 for that print. 8x10s are $105. Albums I mark-up less and things like announcements I hardly mark-up at all (but I don't offer them without a substantial purchase in enlargements first). My average sale ranges $1500 - $2300, depending on the kind of session clients choose. There's a lot more to this whole pricing story than we can get into here, but suffice it to say I'm able to run a profitable business with a healthy margin and I can keep the rest of my life in check because I'm not running around like an idiot trying to do too much low-margin work. It's called "making a living." I started where you are now and I realized very quickly that at that pace, I the only place I could go is broke!</p>

<p>Since you titled your post "Not Prepared, Need Help," it suggests that you're going into all of this blind. Again, don't beat yourself up over it. Most of us did. I hope you'll take the time to stand back, look at some pricing models, run the numbers, and come up with a solid plan before going forward, however. If you don't, you won't learn anything from your mistakes. You're right that you don't want to compete with Walmart -- you'll never win on price. Where you CAN beat the world's largest retailer is in service, quality, and the experience you create for your clients. Trust me, they'll pay. Find the courage to go in a better direction and you'll see the world in a whole new way.</p>

<p>Have a great weekend and have fun! :)</p>

<p>Karen Lippowiths</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>It's hard to "price" a job when you don't know the work involved. In this case, neither do the customers. As rank beginners, I think you'll find that if you now trot out something that's going to push $750, they'll walk. I would.</p>

<p>You will run more time than you expect (don't even think about charging for time getting advice) and consider if you were a customer someplace that charged by time and they told you well, it ran a lot longer than you expected as everything went slowly because we've got limited knowledge and our work flow hasn't been ironed out yet.</p>

<p>Set a reasonable hourly rate for the session and mark up the prints to be consistent with the lower end local competitors.</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>Thank you all so much.<br>

My plan is to shoot late afternoon/golden hour time. I shot my son during the early part of that time yesterday (simulate the son and dog) and I am going to shoot my wife for the later part today (it was really cold and windy yesterday). I used both a reflector and my AFG-360 mounted on camera as a fill. I need to work on the fill to get it right but the reflector went well. Silver was a bit too cold, gold a bit too warm but I could correct the gold in Lightroom easily. I shot my son in dark clothes yesterday and I plan to shoot my wife in light clothes today. No fees for the beach and it is 3 miles from my house. Living in Monterey is really nice. <br>

I am having a hard time thinking in hourly wage terms because I am almost sure I will have more trial and error than anyone with experience. Post processing I would have no problem billing for because I know my workflow and I am very proficient. I could charge 3x "normal" rate and they would still get a bargain.<br>

I am thinking of a flat $200 ($100 an hour but not stated as that. I dont want them thinking on the clock if I do need to reshoot) for the shoot and 5x cost for prints below 11 x 14, 2x for framed, mounted or canvas. <br>

I print with WHCC and Mpix (prefer WHCC) and I have samples coming from Canvas On Demand and Styla Mount (havent used them before).<br>

For the DVD I am going to build a silde show and have a folder will full size images as well as online slide show/folder. I was thinking about making the online orders 3x cost to reflect them being reorders.<br>

I am going back and forth about building a "package" or just letting them choose. I feel like a package is the way to go so they have a starting point and then can build from there but I also dont want them to get hit with sticker shock. <br>

One last question - do I need model releases from them? I dont plan to resell their pictures but can I use them for promotion of my own business if I dont have a model release? man, suddenly doing TF with models is sounding easy!<br>

Again, thank you for all you advice and thanks in advance for any additional.</p>

<p>Rob</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>Ok, one more one last question - Because we havent talked price with the client should I wait until we meet again or email a proposed invoice/price list/brochure. I actually have a brochure prepared but with no prices. I told you I had a "path" :)</p>

[jim mucklin]

<p>Robert, I won't bore you with the build a business model. Until you do, go have fun with this. Start of with an alacarte idea, find out what they want, do they want one 8x10, do they want and 11x14 for their home. Do the shoot, provide them with a cd of only the best images from the shoot, don't give them 100, maybe between 5-10 winners. Tell them to have a look and get back to you with what they would like to order, explain to them that is only a proof cd and include your copyright on the images to protect it. Charge a small sitting fee and loose money if you have to, to estabish a good relationship and provide them with what they want and deliver. Offer them a discount if you can use there images and yes a model release won't hurt. Keep a time card of all your time from start to finish, you'll be suprised how much your time will be your biggest cost.<br>

Now here comes the speach. Now that you have breathing room, sit down a come up with a business plan,figure out a cost sheet that includes all cost in what it take to do this, pay for yourself, travel, print, taxes, and yes I profit. Work with a local printer and come up with a few packages based on customers needs, this way they will know up front what they can afford, no two customers are alike. Make them aware they can order extra prints and that you have access to other services if needed. My own take is leave the framing to the pros. With all the choices, it's to much to stock all the colors and sizes. Meet with a local framer and work out a referal system. The same is true with online webprinter, most of my customers don't want the hassle of online ordering, they give me there order and I deliver the prints after I see them.<br>

The biggest factor never mentioned is time, pay yourself. If your going to make dvd's, videos, etc this take time, add it to your cost. Do all your future customers want this service?<br>

As stated look at it as a business and provide exceptional photos and exceptional services.<br>

Listen to the above posters, it's the best advice.</p>

 

[robert_sholl]

<p>Jim,<br>

Thank you for the feedback. I thought I had a business plan but I forgot that customers get a vote. I obviously need a new one.<br>

I was leaning toward skipping framing for now and you reinforced my thinking that I didnt want to carry corner samples and glass. By monday I should have some nice examples of canvas and standout mounts. I already have matting. It occured to me I dont want to get into framing "tech support" when someone has a wire fail.<br>

I just rewrote my 'base' invoice to take out the word "all" from the description of digital files. I was already thinking it would only be the good ones but that is not what people think when they read "all."<br>

I tend to forget that not everyone prefers online ordering.<br>

I have the luxury of not needing to pay bills with photography yet (thank god!). I had not thought of offering a discount for permission to use their pictures in my portfolio. That would be a handy way to keep my actual pricing in line with what I will need in the future and recognizing that this is a learning process for me. <br>

Again, thank you for the advice.</p>

[albert_richardson1]

<p>Jim is right. It's time to direct your efforts to the goal you appear to want: <em>business success</em>!</p>

<p>Contact SCORE for access to business volunteers who want to help you get your enterprise started. These are the guys who can offer you the help and guidance you need to take care of the business side of things. Many of the volunteers are retired business professionals who feel that it is their privilege to give something back to the community. They're not photographers by and large, but a lot of effort goes into running a business in California that is common to any business. There's a chapter right in Monterey.</p>

<p>

Monterey Bay SCORE

Monterey Chamber of Commerce

380 Alvarado St.

Monterey, CA 93940

http://www.montereybayscore.org/

 

 

</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>Albert,<br>

Thank you! I already have a call scheduled for 9 am Monday.</p>

[wyatt_meares]

<p>For the DVD I am going to build a silde show and have a folder will full size images as well as online slide show/folder.</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>If you want to use the images to promote your business, you'll need prior permission before using them in the advertising, etc. The California Civil code doesn't use the term "release" - so it can be in the contract, a separate release form, etc. You'd need signatures from each adult and the parents can sign for the child (assuming nothing in the way of custody issues, etc.)</p>

[Karim Ghantous]

<p>Oh, one more tip that might be of use: if you don't need the reflector, but want warmth, use WB fine tuning or the shade setting. Nikons allow fine-tuning of each WB setting, even the presets (using the sub-command dial). Shade mode is nice, too. Have a look:</p>

<p>http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/whitebalance.htm</p>

[robert_sholl]

<p>I want to thank everyone here for the advice. I have the shoot scheduled for this week - weather permitting. I will post how it goes and how the sale portion went.<br>

In my current profession, we have a saying that "no plan last past first contact" so I should have known better than to think my "plan" would. On Saturday I got asked to shoot another family session, plus a fashion event and I have a meeting with a model for a TF shoot tomorrow. So much for shooting stock and selling seagulls and sunsets!<br>

Again, thank you.<br>

PS - Karim - I played around with white balance shooting friday. It was too windy for a reflector and shad gave it just the right gold.</p>